Lilith
Beginners Guide
0 - Introduction
1 - Character Evaluation
2- Legend
3 - Input
4 - Pros
5 - Cons
6 - Styles
Zoning
Pit bull
Turtle
7 – Basics
Punish
Anti- Air
Pokes
Air-Game
8 - Normals
9 - Specials
10 - Supers
11- Mix-ups
12 - Combo's
13 - Frame traps & Tick throws
14 - Conclusion
Lilith Beginner Guide
- 0 - Introduction
Since we have to go-ahead to make character specific threads for characters, I decided to take the opportunity to gather information on the character. This will server as the starter, combo, and mix-up thread. For the most part I'm just gathering info from various sources, and putting them into one place.
Get GGPO, get it setup so you can play (unless you have an offline scene).
New to Vampire Savior? Learn the general mechanics of the game here.
Another beginner tutorial has been reposted on Dustoop recently here.
Then, move on to the Lilith specific page here. Though, eventually most of the info there will be in this post.
- 1 - Character Evaluation
Lilith is weak character, and an obvious Morrigan clone. She has a projectile and a Dragon Punch, but unlike Morrigan, she has a standard ground dash, and no airdash. She has no ground overhead and weak mixups, and her anti air game is weak. She also has a lacking defense. However her strength lies in her frame advantage normals and her Luminous Illusion (her Raging Demon attack).
- 2 - Legend
The standard layout for an arcade stick is the Street Fighter setup, as follows:
LP MP HP
LK MK HK
Terms may also be found as follows:
Jab- LP
Strong - MP
Fierce - HP
Short - LP
Forward - MP
Roundhouse - HK
Also, note that c. before the annotation means crouching, and d. before annotation means dashing.
- 3 - Input
LI: There are several ways to do so.You will see many combos that involve comboing into it. Here's an easy example:
c.LP, c.LK, LI
Knowing the input for LI (LP, LP, forward, LK, HP), you must buffer the input during c.LP, c.LK. How do you ask? Its a little tricky, but nothing you can't handle. If you do c.LP fast enough to where the first one hits and the next one doesn't come out, immediately move from down to down-forward and hit LK, then HP. This should work for you, if not, practice.
LI = lp, lp, direction Lilith is facing, lk, hp.
- It is NOT lp, lp, towards, lk, hp. If you just jump/dash over the opponents y-axis. You will actually input lp, lp away, lk, hp. This means the directional input is dependant on the direction Morrigan's sprite is facing.
- It is NOT lp, lp direction Lilith is facing + lk, hp.
- You have 9frames leniency between every button input, NOT DIRECTIONS.
- You cannot combine inputs.
- You can add extra inputs.
- Button priority is weak to fierce. This coupled with the rules of Magic series (increasing hits only), limits simultaneous button presses to buffer DI. Example: You magic chain lp, lk, cr.mk, press hp&lp at the same time = NOTHING COMES OUT. Button priority says you tried to chain cr.mk, lp. This doesn't comply with the rules of Magic series. This sucks b/c it would have been an easy way to combo into cr.hp and already buffer the first lp of LI. =/
- Lastly, you can't do easy mode lp+lk, lp+lk, direction Lilith is facing, lp+lk, hp. This activates Dark force. =(
- You can stagger inputs and add extra for comfort. A few corner only examples to combo into DI are (cr.lk, cr.mp, cr.mk, cr.hp~lp, lp, direction Lilith is facing~lk~hp) or (cr.lk, cr.mp, cr.mk, cr.hp~lp, cr.hp~lp, direction Morrigan is facing~lk~hp)
TIPS FOR COMBOING INTO DARKNESS ILLUSION by Buktooth
----------------------------------------
Kinda like a preface to the DI combo section, if you can't do DI combos, you
really shouldn't be using Morrigan. She's exponentially less threatening
without the ability of overhead/cross up into DI.
-Normal moves (and chains!) can be canceled into DI-type command moves at ANY
TIME. Even before and after the normal buffering window of the move. If the DI
isn't coming out at all in your combo, that just means you didn't input the
DI command correctly.
-If you access to the home version (and I'm pretty sure 99.9% of people reading
this guide do) turn on the key display in training mode. The most common errors
in the DI input occur at the point between the jabs and the short; the part
where you hit towards on the stick. People usually hit short BEFORE they hit
towards on the stick, or they hit towards and short at the same time. That
doesn't work. You have to hit towards on the stick (after the jab jab) THEN hit
the short button.
-If you find yourself creeping back to the bad habit of hitting towards on the
stick at the wrong time, try hitting towards a lot harder than you normally
would. It sounds kinda dumb, but it does work for a lot of people.
-The second most common error is that people don't press jab twice like they
should. It doesn't sound like a likely error to make, but people trying to get
the DI out as fast as they can sometimes don't let the button go up completely
before pressing the second jab. The result is they press jab again when the
button is still down, giving you one jab instead of two. If you're doing this
(check the key display!) try hitting the individual jabs harder. Heh. Force
solves everything.
-If you're STILL having problems getting the DI to come out at all during a
combo, you might be trying to do it too fast. Try slowing it down a bit (or
even a lot) and see if you have any success.
-If you are successfully getting the DI to come out, but can't consistently do
it fast enough to be a combo you should definitely stick to 2 hit chains. 2 hit
chains give you a lot more time to input the motion and leave your opponent
closer to you so that the DI reaches them faster.
How do 2 hit chains give you more time to buffer? You can input a 2 hit chain
as fast as you can and the second hit will always come out, giving you a good
amount of time to free up your hand for the DI command.
-Hit jabs with your index finger, short with your thumb, and fierce with your
ring finger. People who try to do the whole thing with their index finger
almost never get it fast enough.
-Cliched as it might sound, practice! It took me a few training mode sessions
to iron out all my bad habits and get a success rate of better than 9/10. The
good thing is, once you can do it consistently you generally don't forget how.
I haven't really had to maintain my combo ability with further training
sessions that much.
Kara-Fireball: 236hk~any punch. Also applicable in the air. Great for meter building.
- 4 - Pros
Plus frame normals, Luminous Illusion.
- 5 - Cons
Bad anti air, defense, and mixup game.
- 6 - Styles
Zoning - good spacing with s.MP or s.MK, s.HP is a pretty good normal from far away despite not being cancelable. 236P is your projectile, use it.
Pit Bull -
This is what you should be doing. Use your dash to get in, abuse your + frame normals and tick throws, and combo to Luminous Illusion.
Turtle -
- Be sure to whore out TK J.lp projectile. 2369lp. This is GODLIKE. allows pursuit on aerial hit, allows link on grounded hit. Great Anti air too.
- 7 - Basics
Punish
If you are committing yourself to Lilith you can start with learning the proper ways to punish into their super. (lp, lp, Direction your character is facing, lk, hp) Raging Demon basically. Morrigan's is called Dimensional Illusion, DI. Lilith's is luminous Illusion LI. You have 9 frames to input between each button EXCLUDING DIRECTIONS,
Punish examples include:
-cr.lk, ©hk, Super : A great punish with a huge window to input the Super
-cr.lk, cr.mp, cr.mk, cr.hp, Super :Corner only combo, very damaging
Anti- Air
Without Meter:
Chicken Block, J.hp
lp -risky n situational. Like grounded UB's.
cr.mp- spacing specific
j.mk
623lp
2369lp
With Meter:
7+lp, air block, LI
37+lp, air block, LI
This is amazing. Her best AA. You use the jump startup frames to hide the first input of lp. Nothings Comes out! You have to block and begin inputting the remainder of the LI within 9frames. That's why this only works when you chicken block extremely low to the ground. (Unless you superjump+lp). There's barely enough hit stop to buffer the rest of the LI. But there is enough, LI is active in 4frames. Also, b/c you air blocked you had no block stun to accommodate for. =) This is much more damaging than a conventional AA b/c it fully connects & gurantees Pursuit + ground chasing.
Pokes
Air-Game
- 8 - Normals
From the Wiki:
LP - [ Startup: 5 | Hit:+6 | Block:+5 (normal)] [ Startup: 4 | Hit:+7 | Block:+6 (dashing)]
Ear poke. Can whiff on crouchers. Gains a renda bonus. Primarily used for dash cancelling or guard breaking rather than as an actual threat.
n.LP - [ Startup: 5 | Hit:+6 | Block:+5 | Renda: H:+9 B:+8 (normal) ] [ Startup: 4 | Hit:+7 | Block:+6 (dashing)]
Light Chop. Similar to far LP despite a different appearance.
MP - [ Startup: 8 | Hit:+4 | Block:+3 (normal) ] [ Startup: 7 | Hit:+5 | Block:+4 (dashing)]
Side Chop. Good long hitbox, cancelable, and excellent frame advantage on hit/block make this rather ideal for dash pressure and general midrange poking. Your basic go-to move when at a distance.
n.MP - [ Startup: 6 | Hit:-5 | Block:-6 (normal) ] [ Startup: 5 | Hit:-4 | Block:-5 (dashing)]
Drill. Nearly worthless, try to avoid using this. Whiffs on crouchers, bad anti air. No frame advantage. It is cancelable, but during a dash its not unless you fully intend to LI cancel it.
HP - [ Startup: 9 | Hit:-1 | Block:-2 (normal) ] [ Startup: 8 | Hit:-0 | Block:-1 (dashing)]
Needles. Pretty good hitbox, lots of active frames and a good meaty. Good to buffer LI with. Can also slide with it during a dash.
n.HP - [ Startup: 9 | Hit:+3 | Block:+2 (normal) ] [ Startup: 8 | Hit:+4 | Block:+3 (dashing)]
Upper Spikes. If you whiff a throw and get this, no big deal. Has good frame advantage. Not cancelable, but moves her forward to make counter pokes whiff, and verical reach can catch jump outs.
LK - [ Startup: 6 | Hit:+5 | Block:+4 | Renda: H:+8 B:+7 (normal) ] [ Startup: 5 | Hit:+6 | Block:+5 (dashing)]
Shin kick. Lower hitbox than LP which makes it more commonly used as a dash attack than LP. In general, a pretty good light attack, best if spaced to max range or chained/linked into itself. Looks the same as the close version, which isn't as good.
n.LK - [ Startup: 6 | Hit:+3 | Block:+2 | Renda: H:+6 B:+5 (normal) ] [ Startup: 5 | Hit:+4 | Block:+3 (dashing)]
Identical in appearance to LK, except that the frame advantage on the close version is only about half as good as the far version or LP. Be that as it may, it basically has the same uses.
MK - [ Startup: 6 | Hit:+2 | Block:+1 (normal) ] [ Startup: 5 | Hit:+3 | Block:+2 (dashing) ]
Boot. Good hitbox. Not cancelable, and the frame advantage off it is not quite as good as far MP. The dash version makes a pretty good tick throw setup when alternated with staggers. Better to use it sometimes due to close MP not being very good.
HK - [ Startup: 20 | Hit:-5 | Block:-6 (normal) ] [ Startup: 19 | Hit:-4 | Block:-5 (dashing)]
Scythe. Despite it's very slow startup and appearance this move is not an overhead. Which basically makes it pretty worthless. You can sometimes use it as an anti-air, or to set up a frametrap LI-cancel gimmick, but in general you won't be using this move much (if at all).
n.HK - [ Startup: 8 | Hit:-5 | Block:-6 (normal) ] [ Startup: 7 | Hit:-4 | Block:-5 (dashing)]
Spinner. Multi-hit, it makes for a good hit-confirm into LI, since you have plenty of time to both buffer the input and confirm the hit. Uncancellable and disadvantageous on hit/block, so ideally you would cancel to LI regardless.
c.LP [ Startup: 4 | Hit:+8 | Block:+7 | Renda: H:+11 B:+10 ]
Jab. High blockable. Despite being high blockable this is one of Lilith's essential moves due to it having the highest frame advantage and renda bonus out of her moveset. It's also one of the ways she can confirm into LI, as chaining or linking crouching jabs into themselves begins the LI input. Generally a good way to reset/start dash pressure due to it having extremely good frame advantage.
c.MP - [ Startup: 6 | Hit:+2 | Block:+1 ]
Wing Blades. Kind of a relatively crappy move. Her c.MK has better range, faster startup, and much better advantage. Fortunately it's not disadvantageous and it's cancelable, but for the most part she has other moves that do everything it does but better.
c.HP - [ Startup: 9 | Hit:-2 | Block: -3 ]
Wing Whip. One of Lilith's essential moves for comboing LI. Typically chained into and then cmd-super canceled into LI. It's unfortunately not frame advantageous and not cancelable, but it's also not particularly punishable. It's only mildly useful as a poke though, typically players only use it during chains.
c.LK - [ Startup: 4 | Hit:+6 | Block:+5 | Renda: H:+9 B:+8 ]
Low Short. Hits low, cancelable, good frame advantage. A typical low short. Not as advantageous as c.LP, but still pretty good and also gains a renda bonus.
c.MK - [ Startup: 4 | Hit:-2 | Block:-3 ]
Low Forward. Hits low, cancelable, decent frame advantage. It's a nice poke, and is useful during dash rushdown for cancelling into Soul Flash pressure or simply to combo into Soul Flash or Merry Turn. The best part about this move though is the disturbingly fast startup, as it shares the same startup speed as c.LP and c.LK at four frames. Definitely the move of choice for special cancels.
c.HK - [ Startup: 14 | Hit: Knockdown | Block:-20 ]
Scythe Slide. Hits low, sweeps. This move is pretty horrible. Only use it when you're able to hitconfirm it off a normal chain. About the only other time you'd want to use this is if you were going to try a gimmicky blocked c.HK into LI frametrap.
j.LP - [ Startup: 5 ]
Needle. Typical jumping jab. Her fastest startup for a jumping attack. Sometimes used together with j.LK to confirm into LI.
j.MP - [ Startup: 6 ]
Blades. Decent j.MP. The hitbox extends downwards somewhat which is good for startup a jumpin airchain, such as j.MP j.MK.
j.HP - [ Startup: 7 ]
Spinning Rims. Deceptive hitbox. The sprite looks like it hits all around her, but it does not. Usable as a crossup against wide characters, though not as much crossup potential as j.MK. A general purpose air-to-air or air-to-ground move. Possibly her best jumping attack, though j.LP and j.MK are her go-to moves in the air.
j.LK - [ Startup: 6 ]
Knee. Typical jumping short. Useful in air battles or after chicken blocking. Also useful to stuff some anti-airs.
j.MK - [ Startup: 6 ]
Leg Thrust. Has crossup potential. May be better as a crossup than j.HP in some regards. Also useful in air-to-air battles since it extends quite a ways forwards. Pretty good after airblocking as well since the startup is quite fast and the reach is good.
j.HK - [ Startup: 9 ]
Scythe Swing. Great range. Typically used at max range when everything else would miss. This is pretty good for beating anti-airs when spaced properly since the hitbox is so good at max range. Not very good in air-to-air battles though since the startup is slow. Vertical jumping HK makes a pretty good poke or zoning tool simply because of the range and hitbox. Still, it's not something that is used frequently, but rather just when the situation calls for it.
- 9 - Specials
Super Jump (sj) - 2 7/8/9:
A high jump. This will cause Lilith to jump very high and very far. In addition, if she crosses over the opponent she will automatically turn around in the air allowing you to attack towards the opponent, unlike a normal jump
Soul Flash (fireball) – 236P (air):
Lilith's most useful special move by far. A little bat ball projectile that floats a short distance before disappearing. The interesting thing about this move is that it causes a special hit-reel which makes it significantly better on hit than on block. Additionally, the attack strength used causes a drastic change in the speed in which the projectile moves. The Jab version is particularly useful for zoning and rushdown pressure, while the HP version is highly comboable due to it's speed. Because it's also possible to perform in the air it's rather handy for midrange, since being in the air means you're less prone to being comboed during the recovery than if you were on the ground. Because of this, 2369LP is a rather staple Lilith poke.
* (LP Version): The strength of this move is the fact that it moves slow. It's very good mid range as it provides a bit of a shield which Lilith can use to discourage jump-ins and also to set up a wall that she can move forward behind, allowing her to push her way towards the opponent by force. Additionally, although the frame advantage is +2/-8 on hit/block, the projectile moves slow and that advantage assumes you are point blank, so for every frame that it takes to reach the opponent a frame is added to the advantage of the move. Because the active frames for the LP is 35F that makes the advantage range anywhere between +2/-8 to +37/+27
* (MP Version): Moves faster, 13 active frames. Range becomes +2/-8 to +15/+5. Pretty good if spaced perfectly or timed perfectly on a meaty.
* (HP Version): Moves extremely fast, 6 active frames. Range becomes +2/-8 to +8/-2. Mostly useful to combo from max range.
* (ES Version): Moves at medium speed and travels further, 60 active frames, also hits three times. This might have been her most useful version if it didn't hit three times, making it easymode tech/GC bait. Though, since it's autonomous of her it can still be used to pressure/mixup the opponent if they have a terrible GC and/or suck at teching. With 60 active frames and a longer travel distance it's certainly the most useful for midrange zoning.
Shining Blade (DP) – 623P (GC):
An uppercut. Unfortunately for Lilith, the startup on all of her normal versions is 7F while the invulnerability duration is 7F, which makes it prone to losing or trading with very meaty or late attacks. It's also air blockable as soon as she leaves the ground. Thus, it's not horrifically bad as an uppercut but it's also not particularly good. Perhaps the worst aspect to it though is that the hitbox is relatively high for a DP, which also makes it prone to whiffing very small crouching characters like Q-Bee. The landing recovery once touching the ground is 4F, making it possible to punish with a ground combo.
* (LP Version): Short uppercut.
* (MP Version): Medium uppercut.
* (HP Version): Far/high uppercut.
* (ES Version): This version hits three times and has much better invulnerability duration compared to the startup. The startup is faster than the normal versions at 5F (instead of 7) and the invulnerability duration is longer at 10F (instead of 7) so unlike the normal versions this one can actually be used as a reversal and is much less prone to losing/trading. The downside to this is that Lilith will only hit once then teleport back to the ground to hit again, until all three hits are executed, which sometimes makes it prone to whiffing opponents on the second or third hit in certain situations. Also because the whole animation is very long and telegraphed, it's ridiculously easy to punish or block/whiff.
* (GC Version): Identical to her normal/ES versions. Pretty good as a GC, as most DP-Type GC's are, though it still suffers from the same issues as the non-GC versions. Use sparingly.
Merry Turn – 214K:
Lilith's hurricane kick wanna-be. A single hit spin move that takes her into the air. Unfortunately the recovery on this makes it not very useful unless you can hit confirm it. The only reason to use it is for a knockdown.
* (LK Version): Short range, fastest startup, best recovery, though still very easily punishable on block/whiff.
* (MK Version): Medium range, slower startup, worse recovery.
* (HK Version): Far range, slowest startup, worst recovery.
* (ES Version): This version hits four times and has the same startup speed as the HK version. Despite it also having a good distance the recovery is actually better than the MK and HK versions, but still just as bad as the LK version (highly punishable on block).
Mystic Arrow (throw) - 624P:
This is very atypical of a normal command throw in the sense that Lilith will hop towards the opponent before attempting the grab, which drastically limits it's use. Button strength determines the distance she hops. Because of the startup this move is extremely rarely used. If she grabs she will shoot the opponent across the screen behind her.
* (LP Version): Short hop. Best version to cancel into at point blank.
* (MP Version): Medium hop. Can be used off far cancelable normals at max range.
* (HP Version): Long hop. Not particularly useful.
* (ES Version): Very long hop. This version will also wallslam the opponent which will allow for a followup juggle of some kind.
- 10 - Supers
Splendor Love (bats) - 623KK:
This has no invulnerability frames despite the motion and appearance. As far as supers go this one's not very useful. The long recovery and poor startup make it basically worthless outside of combos, especially due to the complete lack of invincibility. The only reason to use it outside of a combo is just to see Lilith naked. However, the damage is pretty decent inside combos (a tiny bit more damage than LI) and it's hit confirmable off a link into c.MK. Still, most Lilith players rather attempt a LI instead of S.Love so it's very rarely used.
Luminous Illusion (raging demon) - LP, LP, 6, LK, HP (air):
Lilith's most useful super, assuming you can execute it well. Because it's a cmd super it's comboability is high. The damage is also good and it's recovery on whiff is basically non-existent (actually 1F). Even though there is some punishable recovery on block it's not especially easy to punish it. Generally speaking this is the move you want to practice doing, because it's one of Lilith's strongest assets as a use any-time any-where kind of move. The 4F startup on this move makes it an excellent point-blank punish as well.
Gloomy Puppet Show (dance) - 426KK:
One of the few supers in the game that costs two stocks. Damage is dependent on how well the Lilith player inputs the attack inputs shown during the dance. Pretty worthless as a super, especially due to how much it costs and it's ridiculously slow startup. If the damage was actually worth it it might be something to use occasionally, but since it's not worth it this move hardly gets any use. One esoteric gimmick is to first use Lilith's Mimic Doll Dark Force then do the Puppet Show, since the doll will mimic the hat toss it can catch people unaware.
As in it doesn't work as planned most of the time? Noel is like that... I like the character and all but always hated fighting her. Not as much as Valkenhayn or Arakune though. I don't play Carl enough to hate him yet.