LordSpectreX

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're right about all the Izayoi stuff. Though it doesn't really matter how fast that TK j.236C is, since the INSTANT you leave the ground, people are gonna block high, but alright. I'm not really gonna get into a conversation about Izayoi vs Kagura since I barely know what the character does. For starters, B Orb is over +10 on block, so I don't know where you get this "he doesn't have enough time to jump". You have enough time to do jump mixup even from a A Orb. In terms of mixup, without mentioning anything fancy or hell, even combining mixup, you can do; 6A 2DA j.B j.C Crossup j.b Empty Jump Low. Tick Throw Tick Command Throw 5B 2B 2DB 2DC 6DB (Crossup) 5DA (Bait Mashing) And that's just the very basic stuff. Honestly, I don't really understand how you come to the conclusion that a subtle 22f overhead and a 8F standing low isn't ambiguous by itself. This only seems to be compared to this Izayoi TK236C that you can apparently combo from is very practical but which i'm finding it difficult to find info for. I mean, it has the same speed as Makoto's, Mu's and Hazama's overheads. And to my knowledge, no-one else has an 8f standing low.

Cool combo, don't mind if i steal that lol. Works off a 6A to for 4.7k damage as well, obviously. Edit: Good news, I found a way to do the CT variant in the corner. Basically, it's the same combo, but instead of 3C > CT > Dash > 3C > 5DC do 3C > CT > Dash > 5C > 5DC The 5C will push you further out the corner, making the arc lower so you can pick them up with 2DA. Does a bit more damage too. Though to make this work you have to delay the 5DC until they're almost level to you. Basically just do it as late as possible before they touch the ground. Not strict, but you need to make sure they're somewhat low.

Discussion on the quality of overheads and how reactable Izayoi's j.236c is aside, how are you getting 4k with it? I've looked in the Izayoi combo thread and I've seen nothing with a j.236 or Noir Edge starter. To me, it honestly a case of risk vs reward. I think his Oki, Mixup and ability to punish through strong reads is already incredibly good. If he can kill in a couple of combos, then it would be too easy for Kagura to win. You could land a 2A midscreen, do a little corner carry combo with orb oki, do one correct mixup, then do a 6k combo with 50 meter. At that point, they've probably only got around 2-3k HP. Not to mention that most of kagura's corner combos end in oki. You've basically won the game from landing a 2A and hitting them during blockstun orb oki with his great mixup. It's too much reward when you've essentially done very little. Even if they get out, 1 CH DP and the round is over. Combine that with having one of the best DPs in the game, huge hitbox drives and things like super armor and projectile crush, and Kagura would just be insane.

Surely the idea is that if you want to continue pressure, you go for 214B, if you want space (cause you want to zone or you need to charge ignis), then you should do 214A>22C

Err...6A is 22 Frames. It's also got one of the most subtlest animations. It's an incredible overhead, or at least, it's actual animation or frames aren't what's wrong with it. It's actual weakness the lack of stuff it can be gatling'd from. By comparison, Noel's 6B is 26 frames. Mu's overhead is just as fast, except that it's incredibly obvious (she leaves the ground for crying out loud.) You say Noel and Mu can get similar damage off their overheads...but Noel and Mu are the queens of damage. They almost always have been. So really, Kagura having an overhead doing similar damage is really quite a big deal. People here are trying to justify Kagura's damage output by saying he can do 7k from a 5C CH with 75% meter but that's pretty silly, a lot of character can do that. What is a great example of his damage is that he can break 3.5k from almost ANYTHING except far midscreen 2A. Even with dashing 2A, you can get 4k midscreen. Not to mention he gets oki from this stuff. Drive Counterhit drive moves midscreen do like 5k midscreen when they already have special properties like super armor and projectile shield.

Tested it mainly with your 6A "46B Non-OTG oki" combo. Though it still applies to stuff like 2AB3C>2DC so I doubt it's setup specific.

Annoying matchup. This one is incredibly momentum based. Platinum lacks reversals, if Kagura can get a knockdown, he can roll with the whole game. Apart from single bombs, you can't 6DC through her projectiles and even at best, you'll usually trade. Boxes can zone you out extremely well and her fast decent range normals will dominate you at max 5B range. If she has Cat Mallet, you basically have to sit back and bait her into using all of them before you can do anything. As far as I've experienced, Kagura gets completely dominated by them. In general, the idea to this matchup is to play EXTREMELY patiently. She will dominate you at neutral but her mixup and damage are pretty meh, and her oki is usually pretty non-existent. Play calm and wait for openings to Flash Kick or start your pressure from her being cautious. If she's zoning, approach slowly and be sure to high jump over her box traps. B Orb is extremely good in this matchup due to her having a lot of trouble destroying it. Pay attention to her items, if she has Bombs, that's a good time to RTSD with your 6DC. If she has Cat Mallet, then try to bait her into using them by pretending to act aggressively (e.g. air dash then block).

I feel like this matchup can be pretty troublesome for Kagura. Arakune can use his spider move full screen to punish you trying to setup an Dark Orb Approach. He can use his long duration backdash to make a drive move whiff and punish you during the long recovery. He can backdash out of drive strings for free and there's pretty much nothing you can do except call him out with 6DC. When you're cursed, you have no chance of really buying time at neutral, you pretty much just have to get locked down and block what you can. Arakune's normals are bad and your drives and normals can do a good job at catching him out, but it's very high risk from both sides as Arakune can also backdash or use a Fake-Out special to make them whiff. My advice is to play patiently early on and figure out what the Arakune you're playing against likes to do. Your DP is extremely good Vs Arakune and he has a hard time punishing it due to his lack of a dash. Don't go #yolo with your mixup and pressure. Arakune has no meterless Reversal, so keep him locked down with a few regular normals and resetting pressure with orbs before using your big mixup moves. If you can get into his head, then his threat level becomes a lot more trival.

If he did it very quickly, too slowly or the Terumi did a Quick Tech, then it will "OTG". But I'm strictly referring to after 2DC and using for Oki vs someone who doesn't press anything at all. If they don't press anything, it will eventually OTG when they begin to rise. This is all my opinion ofc, but it'd be hard to get 10 moves to go into these catorgories. Why? Because Kagura's neutral game is really, really poor. Kagura is extremely slow, and his moves have incredibly long recovery and startup. You can supplement this by using stuff like B Dark Orb to cover yourself. However, the general rule of thumb is that if you approach by air, you'll be anti aired pretty easily, if you approach by ground, even decent pokes will stop you. Kagura's best mid-range normal is arguably 6B and even that is fairly pitiful. Stuff like j.D into drives like 6DC can be useful but it's pretty situational. The way I open up people Kagura is not through neutral pressure, but instead with spacing. 5C keeps them honest at mid to long range and baits a lot of jump approches. 6C's range is GODLY (I've caught people from the peak of Super Double Jumps) and most of his drive moves, while being slow, usually have special properties or other unique traits. And of course, he has his DP. It is important to remember that his DP is pretty hard to punish. You can often use it as an anti air and be completely safe. Since they have to barrier block the whole duration of the moves throughout multiple hits, they'll usually be sent hurtling back and unable to punish. Drive Moves like 2DB can catch ground approaches with a low, 5DC if they come from the air, 6DC can cut through projectiles, 5DA will counter high mid pokes. They're slow, but if you space yourself properly, then they help zone you opponent and often catch them out. What I mean is that I believe you have to open up people through the little mistakes they make during THEIR approach. It's important to remember that Kagura's mixup is insanely good, and you don't need much to start it. In fact, you can start a pretty dangerous mixup (and baiting game) from any hit you do, and sometimes just from blockstun (hello 6DC). Once you have the momentum, then you can go ham and destroy them. Top 10 Moves at Neutral; 5C (Mid-Long Range Poke) 6C (Long Range Anti Air) 5DC (Aggressive Anti Air 28C (Defensive Anti-Air and general Anti-Button move.) 6DC (Mid Range Anti Projectile Thrust) 5DA (Short-Mid Range Super Armor) 2DB (Mid Range Sweep) j.C (Quick and Easy Knockdown) j.A (Fast Air-to-Air) B Dark Orb (High Durability Full Screen Projectile)

After 2DC, B Orb will not OTG except on; Ragna, Taokaka, Hakumen, Tager, Arakune and Rachel. It will always OTG if they're lying flat on the ground. On everyone else, the B Orb will pass over them as long as you give a very, very slight delay, and won't OTG until they begin to auto-rise.

Ah, I believe it is character specific. Ragna is my training dummy and it will always insta-OTG. But I tried on Jin, Kagura etc and it doesn't. I might as well compile a list.

I think you did explain this somewhere, so sorry. But what do you mean by this? 4~6B always seems to OTG off the ground, no matter how long you delay it.

Well, firstly, the motion 4[]1236c. If that lack of 1 was just a typo, then the reason why it's not coming out is because you're not doing one of the inputs. Likely 1, 3 or 6. Turn on your Inputs in Training mode and see which one you're not doing. If it's 1 or 3, make sure you do a smooth semi circle and cover all the edges. If it's the 6, then overcompensate the motion and go up to 9 before pressing C. Kagura's stuff isnt really jump cancelable so you dont have to worry about not pressing it quickly enough.

You will always want to do the 5DC as fast as possible. The later you do 5DC the less steep the arc of the launch will be, making them tech sooner after they cross you over.

Ah basically, you're supposed to use to A Orb instead of the B Orb. The A orb doesn't OTG so if you don't tech, not only can Kagura delay the B Orb as Daeron said, but he can also use the A Orb as a slightly weaker but more reliable option because if you tech, you have to block, but if you don't tech then he can OTG you into a full combo. Best thing you can do is roll back or tech just before the OTG then either block or punish if kagura goes on auto-pilot.

You have to be near the opponent. Time the 3DA just after they pass Kagura's head. It's fairly tight even if you get the starter right.

While I can't get it to work standing, I don't really find it to be that much of a problem. I find that I dash 2A a lot at midscreen neutral, so I get to do this quite a few times. Probably more use as a punish combo to punish stuff that's not INCREDIBLY minues that you could just use a Fatal for. On another note, this might already be done but I can't find it, so... Midscreen 2DA > 6DA > 5B > 3C > 2DC > [4]~6A > 5BB > 5C > 6DC > 2DB. [3795 DMG, 27 Meter]

The combo video of justice; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHqg0LUOdjA Transcription; Midscreen 2A Starter "2AxN > 2B > 3C > 2DC > 5DA > 6DC" [1979 DMG, 14 Meter] When you've used lots of 2As "2A > 2B > 3C > 5DC > (Delay) 3DA > [4]~6B > 6C > 6DB > 2DC > [2]~8C" [3716 DMG, 26 Meter] This combo is hard mainly due to the 5DC > 3DA Link. You have to do it JUST after the opponent crosses over Kagura's head. The timing is hard but after a few tries you'll get it down. 2A Midscreen Meterless Non Counterhit 3.7k combo FTW. Midscreen 5B Starter "5BB > 3C > 2(1)DC > [4]~6A > 5BB > 5C > 6DC > 2DB > Oki." [2680 DMG, 19 Meter] Corner Carry, Light Oki "5BB > 3C > 2(1)DC > [4]~6A > 5B > 3C > 2DC > Oki" [2299 DMG, 16 Meter] Heavier Oki Throw Midscreen Starter "B+C > 6C > (Delay) 6DA > 2(1)DA > [4]~6B > 3C > 2DC > 5DC > [2]~8C" [4275 DMG , 30 Meter] Connecting the 6DA requires a fair bit of timing. Highest DMG off a throw so far, works on backthrow too but does no work in the corner (they pop out of B Orb before 3C can connect). Probably just better of sticking with the regular easier 4k throw combo. Until you also want to learn these... "B+C > 6C > (Delay) 6DA > 2(1)DA > [4]~6B > 3C > 2DC > Oki" [3539 DMG, 25 Meter] This on the other hand, is much more appealing. This allows you to get B Orb Oki midscreen without needed a wall to get 2C into B Orb from. Useful. Airthrow Midscreen Starter "j.B+C > [4]~6A > 6C > (Delay) 6DA > 2(1)DA > [4]~6B > 2C > 2DB > Oki" I can't get the 2C > 2DB to connect and I don't care enough to try. 3C > 2DC works and gives heaver Oki. So I dunno. [3538 DMG, 25 Meter] Flash Kick Starter "CH [2]~8C > 5B > 3C > 2DC > Oki" [2040 DMG, 14 Meter] I have no clue how to connect the 5B on standing opponents. I did it the first time but havent been able to do it since. If you know, please say! Midscreen Into Corner 5C Starter "5C (Incredibly Near)> CT > 6DA > 2(1)DA > [4]~6B > 6C > 6DB > 2DC > 5DC > 3C > 6DC > 5D~28D [7505 DMG, -45 Meter, Requires Starting 45 Meter for Distortion Ender] 7.5k Damage yep. You have to be going into the corner from around the start of the reset in training mode. Their half basically. Doesn't even require a CH. Unfortunatly, you have to be insanely close to the opponent for the CT to connect. Even 2A>5C will push you back too far. The only way I can see this happening is off a meaty 5C when they were mashing, but...yeah. Midscreen Intro Corner 5B Starter w/OD Unburstable. "5BB > 3C > OD > 5C > 6DC > 2DA > 5DA > Dash (Hold 4) > 3C > 6DC > 2(1)DC > [4]~6B > 6C > 6DB > 5DC > 5D~28D" [5357 DMG, -20 Meter] I'm not sure how to connect 5C into 6DC and still have 2DA, if you know, please say! Not gonna do all of it, just the midscreen stuff since that's what's lacking the most atm.

Of course, but then what? 5BB > Air combo is fake, 5B>3C is fake, 5BB>5C is fake. I can't find anyway to force the lack of tech into pressure.

Yeah you have enough time to do Dash 6A after a blocked B-orb. They can't mash 2A to get out of it. Anyway, I'm doubting the usefulness of doing ...3C > 2DC > B Orb. If they decide not to tech, the B Orb will OTG and give them a free air tech. Any ideas on how to get around this?

The J.C recovery is absolutely pitiful, I'm still shocked sometimes how I can whiff it and how much time they have to punish it. Combine that with it's very mediocre hitbox and you have a move and you can't really abuse. J.B is a lot safer, but it's probably has about the same size hitbox as Mu's J.B. Well, DPing on wakeup is always a risk. Any option you do on wakeup has a risk to it, even blocking. However, it's easily one of the best DPs in the game, prehaps even the best, it's very important to make people scared of it and realise it's potential. The more people hesistate and try to bait your DP, the more oppotunities you have to escape by simply jumping out or starting pressure of your own.

After the dash, hold 4, you'll stay on the right side and will start changing, the following motions after the dash is basically 4BB>4C>4[]6B.

Some random tibbets. The Auto Guard on 5D-A only applies to mids and highs, lows will beat it. Doing Air Stance on a cornered opponent while jumping over then will cause Kagura to cross up the opponent in the corner. List of All Kagura's Air Unblockabes; 6A 5B 6B 5C 6C 2B 2C 3C 5D-A 5D-B 5D-C 6D-C 2D-C 5D [28D] 2-8C

(Corner) 5B > 3C > 236C > 214A > 66 > 5C(1) > j.C > j.236C > j.214B > j.B (while falling) > 2C > 6C > 41236B > 4D (Near the end of 41236B) > 3C Does about 4.2k, uses around 30% of the Ignis Gauge. Cannot be done off a 2A>5A starter or Throw.

His mixup and oki game is incredibly strong. ATM, that seems to be the point of the character. Even now, I can completely run games through just by getting one good knockdown. After he has; two standing overheads, multiple command lows, including a standing 5B. A Crossup move (that works in the corner), and a command throw. On top of that, all his "mixup" confirms go into good damage for free, the lowest probably being from a 5B midscreen, which still goes into at LEAST 2k from a very basic BnB.