Zidane

Alright Spirit Jake. Alright.

That doesn't matter. Hotenjin is better because 2149B corner combos are too sexy and everyone seems to think you can't combo into 2 Hotenjins and do 7K+ with regular. HOTENJIN TERK DER JERBBBBBBBBBBBB PS: Hotenjin isn't the best reversal in the game. You can probably get the most damage off reversal Hotenjin ( probably, i'm not sure ) but other reversals are better / safer anyway.

Dude that's the same thing for Hotenjin. You can seriously do all the same combos with regular or FC except 2-3 that add negligible damage and don't matter. Shit, you can do more damage with FC 214DB lvl 2. You get 3-4 more K off that CH than lvl 1 and Hotenjin. I'll say that's a better FC. Ragna can't break 8K without FC. Jin can't do 5-6K without FC (usually). Arakune can get 100% curse but it's easier with FC. These chars get WAY more hitting FC moves than Hazama. Only thing Hazama has is that he might hit his more often then the rest of them.

I don't think Hotenjin FC is the best FC in the game. Probably not even 2nd or 3rd best. The only combos you can do with FC are 4 Ds, TK 2149B, or some silly shit which probably only works on Tager. Double Hotenjin / relaunch combos are all possible off just raw hotenjin and aren't easier if Hotenjin is FC. I think just getting hit by raw hotenjin is scary enough; people just hear Fatal and start panicking. Arakune getting full curse off FC, Ragna doing 7-8K combos off fatal, Hakumen's FC Hotaru combos, hell, even Jin FC combos. All those chars get ridiculous shit they normally wouldn't/can't without FC. Hazama either gets regular damage or 500-700ish more. PS: Stay free Spirit Jake.

It's somewhat character dependant; i've found that as long as the 3C connects, Hotenjin will hit Litchi no matter what. Yet unless you're pretty close, it'll whiff Hakumen. Not to mention after 3C, you might wanna wait a little bit for their falling horizontal hitbox to get bigger so Hotenjin can hit them. On the flip side, if you wait too long sometimes they're already hitting the ground. I've tested it and to get an idea of the height, Hotenjin -> backdash -> 623D ( as long as it doesn't hit when the tip closes ), 66 3C Hotenjin works on everyone ( couldn't test on Mu or Valk but sure it works on Mu ). I don't know why specifically you want to practice double Hotenjin combos since it costs 100% though. Throw combos into 623D, 66 3C Hotenjin do 5K, cost 50% and net you 50% by the time the combo is done.

Why is it elitist if a group of FRIENDS decide who they wanna team with, random or not? That's like me telling you it's elitist you go to the movies with your friends and I think you should go with Random Guy B on the street. Not to mention we did actually include people who didn't have teams ( Mahokou, he ended up being my partner ).

What's he saying is that if you got it to blackbeat so many times and even you say yourself you don't think it's a real combo, it's most likely not a real combo. Not to mention that even if it did work, why are you doing it to look cool? Just do BnBs. More damage, more meter gain, more hotenjins to look stylish later. PS: I tried it, it doesn't work. It would only ever work if you can combo into lvl 2 DP off 5C and you can't. Maybe you can get a combo off 3C into Lvl 2 DP on Tager or maybe back throw into the corner, and even then, there's more damaging combos / more stylish combos that still do more damage.

Jakou -> j6D relaunch works on Tager, Hakumen, Arakune, Rachel, Mu, Taokaka.

Cool. Let's complain about Loke Test 1 for a new game about a character who received some buffs and some nerfs to make sure she doesn't become dumb. Let's not complain about Litchi or Ragna, when Litchi lost all her mixup and Ragna lost all his EVERYTHING.

Since I don't have Mu unlocked all I can do is agree with you on the 6B / delay cancel into DP.

Well TB / FlyingVe are right. Sorry about that / thanks guys

I thought it was a 0 or 1 frame super that froze time and then him travelling to hit you is 7 frames.

I had a long post but DL deleted it for no reason so to summarize: 1) D has shit blockstun by itself so I imagine the laser has to hit during the frames when you block the second hit and you're getting ready to punish it. 2) Just saw FlyingVe's post about -3. That means you have to IB the second hit to punish it with 2A/5A ( if your character's is fast enough ), which isn't that hard seeing as how the first hit is overhead and you know when the second is coming (Corrected by Spark), or just regular block and have a 0-3 frame move ( Tager Busters, etc ). Also Mu is not airborne while doing overhead so she can be thrown out of it. 3) Even though I think it's 6-4, this is coming from the Hazama player. The people that are mostly "complaining" in the Mu forum are the people I play every week. So while I can casually list why Hazama beats her with things like "no ground game, can't set up steins", that must really suck for the Mu player and it might feel like 6.5-3.5 or 7-3 or something. All I can say is it's atleast 6-4; it might be worse.

1) Momentum comment is pretty vague so I can't say much about it except that it's more important for Mu than Hazama 2) Mu has a really hard time zoning Hazama unless he's out of chains to pull himself around. Regular steins are awful; no hit or block stun and the tracking is questionable. Charged up lasers are pretty good but Hazama has a ton of ways around them. D eats them and a combination of it's tracking and Hazama's small hitbox means sometimes it misses when it wouldn't vs. others due to Hazama chaining around and crouching. 3) Mu has ridiculous damage off her FC moves and overhead but there's a distance in the matchup where all her ground pokes lose to Hazama's and he can jump safely over any of her pokes and punish anything that's pretty much not A since all her moves have pretty bad recovery. Not to mention Hazama does more damage ( usually, not always ), he has more setups for that damage and the setups are safer / easier to set up than Mu's. 4) Mu has ok/decent oki. I don't know why the threat of Hotenjin is ever minimal; Even with big lasers on top, if you throw out a poke you still eat 2500. Assuming the lasers don't bounce atleast 3-4 times, Hazama still combos off that Hotenjin. She also needs to look out for 236C, 214DB, and jump-chain out. Depending on what normal she throws out, she can cancel it into DP from Hotenjin super flash but it's not as good as Ragna's ability to cancel into DP ( he can do it later than Mu i'm pretty sure, not 100% so sorry about that ) This is one of those matchups where Hazama controls it as soon as the round starts. He can either rush down or chain away full screen and Mu still can't setup any sort of stein formation for fear of Hazama coming back in. If she tries to throw out one stein and a big laser, Hazama eats that with D and punishes her. There are some ways for her to set up steins / big lasers but it seems pointless because of how easy it is for Hazama to just fly away. Matchup is 6-4 ( in my opinion ) because it seems Mu only gets in or does big damage based off Hazama's mistakes. Hazama could chill full screen if he wanted and Mu can't do much to stop him while Mu doesn't even have close to that luxury. Hazama wins the ground game althrough Mu puts up a fight in the air with jC / j2C. It just seems that Hazama could either decide not to block anything and zone / mess with her mind with chain and win, or he can get in her face and rushdown and win. Even blocking Mu isn't that big of a threat seeing as her mixup isn't anything special at all: average overhead (can't be punished by hotenjin), average lows, throw. Mu's j2C to beat throws is pretty good but then you realize you can not try to throw Mu and just tech her throws and that seems pretty eh too. Mu has to work too hard to punish Hazama's mistakes to get good damage while Hazama can play the matchp zoning, rushing down or defensive and still be on top.

I don't make Hazama out to be more than Top 3. Top 3 is godlike in general. Whenever you say "Other chars have better X", you do realize you don't list those characters? I'll list them though. Litchi Bang And other chars have 1 or 2 random pokes pokes that are better than Hazama's mid-game ( Ragna 5B, Hakumen 4C/jC, Mu jC ) but that's it. Some other chars have one or two random pokes that are better than some of Hazama's pokes, not even all of them at mid-range. But anyway, regarding the personal thing, nothing i've said about him or redsilversnake has been an assumption and I am going to say "i'm just telling the truth". I'm not personally attacking them. Redsilversnake had no concept of command throws and teching them and wants to tell someone else how a character and the system works. ZhePrime is telling me you can't combo off 214DA when you can. He's saying Hazama can't escape pressure when he can. I'm not going through every post and shitting on people for no reason. These guys are blatantly saying WRONG things with authority, causing other people to believe them. It's the equivalent of me saying Litchi isn't top whatever because without her pole she sucks. Her midgame gets beat by people like Hakumen and Ragna's. Her life isn't that good. Her DP can't be RCed so it sucks. Her oki isn't that good. That's what these people are pretty much saying and it's dumb.

I'm pretty sure he does have a reversal without meter and it's called 214DB. Next you're going to complain that that's not a good option, and you might be right, seeing as how it's not invul to atleast 7-8 frames, although it has it's uses. Then i'm going to say that IB mash works just as well for Hazama as it does anyone else in BB. Then you're going to say mashing doesn't work in top-level play ( although it does against Hazama's stance overhead apparently ). Then i'm going to say if you can't IB and jump-chain out, which works against almost the whole cast cause almost no one's pressure is that tight, sit there and block. Then you're going to complain about blocking because... you suck? I dunno. 5A, 2A, 5B, 5C, 3C, jB, jC, j2C. First of all, 2C and 214DB are not solid. Ragna's 6A is solid. Tao's 6A is solid. Hazama's 2C is one of the best AAs in the game, not to mention it serves as a good ground-to-ground poke as well. 214DB, when used vs. an airborne opponent, can almost never be punished. It probably can't be punished but i'm not 100% sure so i'll say almost never. Good ground to ground pokes? 2A/5A. 5B. 5C. 2C rarely. 214DA. 236D. Good air to air? jB. jC. The only moves that consistantly beat Hazama's jB is Mu's jC and Hakumen's jC. 1) It's hard to pressure Hazama with anyone except say Hakumen, Litchi, Bang, Ragna and Carl. And those are some of the best characters in the game. Know why it's hard? He has a D button that lets him go wherever the fuck he wants. Now you're going to say "but you just said earlier sometimes you can't D out hyuck hyuck!". And then i'm going to say if you're good at this game, you should know when a bad situation is coming and how to avoid it. It's easy as fuck to avoid shit with Hazama. 2) The only person with true Oki in this game is Litchi. Everything else can either be guess tech rolled out of or mashed or Hotenjined or DPed or thrown or *gasp* blocked because not everyone has super good mixup. Actually that's not true. Hazama has pretty good oki too when the opponent is in the corner. Which is a lot. But Hazama's not godlike or anything so let's ignore that. 3) He actually CAN run away and zone all game if he wants. See, you D full screen away. And then they're at the other end. And then you spam D in various angles to either make them scared to come in or you stop their get in. Then you get chains back cause it hit them or they blocked it. Then you repeat the process over again. Flying full screen doesn't give him negative penalty. Backdashing stupidly does though. Lastly, although this isn't apart of the post you quoted, i'd like to say... just stop posting. About Hazama atleast. You're not right. You won't be right. You say things like Hazama has no mid-game, 214DA can't be comboed off of. You complain about lack of reversals and how bad moves are when they aren't. You ask me to list what are his good pokes, when if you knew that, you wouldn't be arguing with me. Just like Redsilversnake, you can continue feeling smug and right based on whatever scrubby matches you've played, but you don't know how Hazama works and the fact you can't see why he's so stupid ( when myself, others and Japan in general ) has told you probably means that you're either not smart, not a good BB player, or both.

You're right. He doesn't rape the rest of the cast like Bang or Litchi do. He doesn't have raw burst damage off any poke and huge damage off mixup without meter. That could be why they say Hazama is #3 and not #1 or 2 you know. Except he still rapes the rest of the cast. BnB that does 3K damage and gives enough meter that your next combo, even if it's 2A x 10, will get you 50% meter. Best D button in the game, used as zoning, pressure, mindgames, etc. Some of the best pokes in the game which all lead to the same 2-3K damage combo that ends in knockdown, usually in the corner, good oki and gives more meter than it should. High/low mixup that's safe. Invul command throw. Hotenjin combos that not only do anywhere from 2 - 7K, and depending on the distance, will get you back the 50% meter you just spent. Throw combos that can go upwards of 4K without meter, netting you 49-51%. Throw combos that when used with Hotenjin, do 50% and gain you 40% of the 50% you just spent back. Great anti-airs. Great ground-to-ground. Great air-to-air. jB and j2C crossup at such ridiculous ranges and still combo into Hotenjin. Mashy jC's hitbox is retardedly good and on whiff is safe. Causes 60-70% of the cast to play Hazama's game with just the D button at the start of any match. Any poke whiffed EXCEPT 3C and 2B either can't be punished at all or the situation in which to punish it is so specific/only top tier can do it it doesn't matter. Has better-than-average life. But I guess Ragna is better. I mean, he does 4K damage, his 5B is pretty baller and America can't block high. EDIT: What do you mean when y ou say reversal? Like "IB X and mash on Y to get out of pressure" such as a DP? Or do you mean to just avoid pressure? Cause Hazama has this thing right.. It's called the D button. He presses it and then he presses it again and the gods allow him safe passage to the Full Screens where he could no longer be troubled by such silly things like "pokes" and "pressure".

Everyone saying Hazama is A-B tier, citing the CT Jin thing: Hazama and CT Jin sound the same on paper; no bad matchups, can fight the top tier. The difference is that the top tier is so radically different from CT to CS that they're not the same at all. CT Jin was solid in a game where Top 3 had tools ( read: WMDs ) that could kill anyone off any random hit. Rachel had... everything. Arakune won after one curse. Good luck catching Nu. So CT Jin, let's say is A across the board in shit like defense, oki, offense, whatever. Top 3 had letters in an alphabet the rest of the cast wasn't even aware existed in some categories. In CS, Litchi, Bang and whoever else anyone wants to place next is S in a lot of categories, but definitely weaker in a few. They don't have any of the shit top 3 in CT had. Hazama is S and A in everything he does. He excels in everything a fighting game character should be able to do and has no flaws. That's why he's top 3, or S tier, or S-, or whatever the fuck anyone wants to say besides A-B tier. Just because he can't do a 30 second 4-5K combo and end with stupid oki like Litchi or blindly hit 5A/2A into too-good mixup like Bang doesn't mean he's not as good. When Litchi doesn't have her pole and is being pressured, it's hard for her to get out. Bang without nails is a lot less scary. Hazama is at peak performance at all times.

A spam against 214DA only works if you predict the overhead. You can't see Hazama in the air doing his flip kick and think "Gee, I can punish this with 5A now!" If that were the case, everyone would mash out of Ragna's overhead(s) for free too. No, that's exactly what it is. It's a DP with all the rewards and risks to it. I'm sorry but if I IB something and I have a DP... i'm gonna DP. Much like I would Hotenjin Hotenjin either trades or wins against practically every move but a DP. And when it trades it's always in Hazama's favor since he still gets a combo. You CAN avoid stuff like 720s as long as you do it first ( just like everyone else because no one can punish 720 if Tager 720s first ). Invincible move loses to more invincible move, don't see why that's such a huge disadvantage against Hotenjin. 5B, 214DA/C, 5C, 2A, 5A, 236D. All strong options midrange. The only problem he has is against the few chars ( Ragna, Bang, Litchi, Haku ) who just happen to have better midrange pokes. In which case he uses D to get the position he wants. Hazama has no weakness; He just doesn't do AS good at midrange when up against the likes or a Ragna or Litchi.

Imagine a character has all the tools he needs to win. Now imagine he can run wild on most the cast in that fighting game. But one character can stop him from running wild. That doesn't mean it's a bad matchup, just that he can't do what he usually does so easily. Hakumen can slash chains and his pokes are as good as Hazama's. That just means that Hazama can't chain in for free or come in with superior pokes since they're both even in that department. I don't see why Hazama is at a disadvantage just because he has to think more/play smarter/play more cautious against Hakumen then other people. Litchi can't stop chains but she has other tools / deterrents that make the matchup 5-5.

I wasn't saying your tier list was misinformation, I was saying mundus was spreading more dumb stuff. My bad for not clarifying.

Oh so you play Hakumen v. Hazama matchup? Which one do you play as? Can you tell me why it's bad?

What the.. what the fuck? Why did misinformation need a new thread to spread too? Was one not enough? Could it not contain all the wrong? Henaki's tier list is either the one posted 2-3 weeks ago modified with his opinion or a new one. @mundus: Hazama has no bad matchups. At all. When a character has only good matchups and no bad matchups, how can they not be top tier? The reason tier lists put Hazama above Arakune is because Arakune STILL has bad matchups, no matter how many 10K combos he can do. Anyone can body 80% of any cast when played right ( KA2 practically OCVed his way to win SBO 2-3 years ago, losing one match with fucking mid tier Jam ) so what the hell.