WolfCrimson

That's... a pretty big assumption. You could also assume they don't block after current GF (the one Tager has now) and you'd get a reset as well.

@Manta: Could end up being very disadvantageous in longer combos, with Tager's pretty heavy repeat proration, they might even recover before you. But could be very useful in shorter combos. For example, the pretty standard combo of 5c>6A>2C>AC>AC whiff>6B>2C>AC> Bsledge>gadget makes the tech time proration go below 10%, which corresponds to -5 standing hitstun reduction. Since 5A has 3 active frames and 7 frames recovery, and is a level 1 move, which has 12 frames standing hitstun, would leave you at slight frame disadvantage (since their hitstun is 12-5= 7, while your total recovery is rest of active frames + recovery (2 + 7 = 9), leaving you at 7-9 = -2 disadvantage. Formula for calculating tech-time reduction= (P1 of first move in combo)x (P2 of all moves in combo)x (repeat proration of all moves in combo) x (bonus proration of all moves in combo) so... 1x (.92 x.89 x.92 x.8 x.92 x.92 x.8 x.7 x.6) x (.45) = .077 or 7.7% That's only if you use 5A by itself.

Character combo rate does not factor in tech-time reduction. Also, it's very possible the opponent techs and block as soon as he sees 3C start-up. 3C isn't that fast, and has bad recovery if the opponent techs and blocks. And even if the opponent can't (i.e. doesn't have the reaction time for that), doing 3C>GFx N does give you alot of meter (very little damage), but how many reps do you think Tager can do before huge hitstun reduction, or even auto-tech, kicks in? GF has bad P2. Combo reset would need the combo to have been long enough that hit-stun reduction would allow a combo reset, there aren't that many combos that do that. Even then that could be met with an easy answer: The opponent could just be holding back or down-back while you're hitting him, so any attempts to reset the combo would be met with block, they'd have to react to high/low, true, but with Tager's abnormally slow overheads, that's not hard to do. You could say Tager could do 2B and wait for them to get out of hitstun, and that'll give you an advantage to do something like a hit/throw mix-up afterwards, but it'd still be the same guessing game that Tager has now after GF, although with a tighter window for the opponent to do something. The exact same thing could be achieved if the current GF had more frame advantage. That's true, but what I meant was being in stagger state (not teching out of it and being in stagger recovery) makes grabs pink. SO the opponent could just not tech and just let his grabs become pink.

But... why would anyone tech out of stagger state against Tager? His damage prorates horribly, better be bluebeat comboed while in stagger than tech, and if Tager does 360 it'll be pink, giving them a free escape. Oh, also the no: of frames is 8. You can't act for 8 frames after teching out of stagger state, because that's how long it takes to recover from stagger.

Er... Why the crumble/stagger state specifically? Because of the recovery?

Actually, coming back and reading this made me realize that this post does not properly convey what I wanted to be understood, which is: that the frames of magnetic pull should be set up in such a way that it'd pull them enough in a certain way as to help Tager with jump prevention, footsies, blockstrings/mixup (so that the mix-up does not defeat its own purpose) and even some combos, and not really be useless or even negative. I don't know how magnets fucking work, but I'd take a guess and say magnetism frames in the mid to mid-late region (1/2 to 3/4) of start-up could be that sweet spot.

Here are 2 combo videos who gained self-awareness and decided to do a collaboration combo video and fight each other: Actually it's Hara (Ragna) vs Rocho (Hazama), credit goes to Jourdal for uploading on YT: Part 1 Part 2 Part 3

@Sans, Spark: Thanks. @Madbater: Definitely CS2 Yukikaze.

Wait, really? But Hakumen's jC is faster than her jD and j2D, how is that possible? Is it because of the distance?

OK then, just a very weak magnetic pull that helps Tager.

@Osuna: I assume you're replying to me? In any case, I didn't mean it should start late like jD, I meant it should have a weak magnetic pull like jD, or even weaker. I can't really go into specifics because I'm just throwing out a general idea of what could solve Tager's problems, but the idea is adding weak magnetic pull to C moves to aid in jump prevention, blockstrings and footsies, but not be too much to negatively impact combos. I think this is possible.

Does Hakumen's Yukikaze still have that speedy start-up when catch is on frame 1?

I've found that: -At mid-close range, where most swords can't hit, where she would usually try to 5CCCCC, you can do Kishu>enma and combo afterwards. -You can Yukikaze her overhead sword DD and it'll hit, but after her million swords DD she has time to jump out of it. Does Yukikaze still have that incredible speedy startup when catch is on frame 1? -Also, since lambda doesn't have meterless DP, after you end a combo in the corner, be wary of them trying to superjump airdash out. If you do air throw, you can do a combo again. Even if they tech it, you can jC afterwards, which even on block would keep them in corner.

So... this benefits Tager, helping his footsies game during magnetism. It's not like the C moves magnitze, just have weak magnetic pull. What's the problem?

A weak magnetic pull (think almost jD strength) to grounded C moves would solve jump prevention, huge pushback during blockstrings, and would make them serve as good pokes, as long as the opponent is magnetized, which would go hand-in-hand with the whole magnetism gimmick. You'd still need D moves to magnetize. And giving Tager his old 2C>4D gatling, as well as a 2C>6B gatling would be good for blockstrings and mix-up. And it was suggested that 2C's head att invuln starts earlier and last longer, as well as giving it better range. Disregarding everything ever posted before, these would make Tager good. Or at least not suck. What do you think?

Yo, here's a brilliant idea that could help with jump prevention: Give Tager's ground C moves (5C, 2C, 6C and 3C) initial magnetic pull in its startup frames.

I've been thinking about 6A break... I've said before that it's either this or Slide head (I'mma gonna call it seismic fist for now, sounds sciencey)> mag follow-up, together they'd make Tager S tier, and to be honest, I say slide head> mag follow up is better than 6A break for the following reason(s): 1. 6A break is dependant on the opponent being magnetised, while seismic fist doesn't really need magnetism, just the opponent being on the ground. The follow-up does need spark-bolt gauge, but it guarantees a combo afterwards (because as stated earlier, you could combo them with AC after floor mag bounce). 2. 6A break is really good for pulling them in from mid-range and not commiting to a very unsafe whiff, but I don't think it's good from afar. He already has tools to getting closer at that range (Bsledge and 2D) though (which, granted, could also become unsafe if whiffed). Seismic fist can get untechable knockdown from anywhere, really, as long as they didn't jump. 3. The mag floor follow-up to seismic fist would enable a serious mind-game: Since it needs a full spark-bolt gauge, that means you also have spark bolt at the ready. Usually, people don't really jump around or commit to dashing if Tager has Spark bolt, so they stay on the ground. However, staying grounded means being susceptible to seismic fist and getting floor mag follow-up into AC>combo. Jumping on the spot while barrier blocking would seem to be the best solution, but what if Tager times it right to hit the opponent between landing frames and jump start-up? That's 9 frames (for most of the cast) where the opponent is vulnerable. Double jumping could also yield an answer to this dilemma, but that means using up jump 'stocks' (for most characters) to do any more air movement, so when the opponent lands, Tager can also do Seismic Fist to score that knockdown. Double jumping on top of Tager is hella obvious, so he can just AC.

Making it level 5 would make it safe, I think. I'm surprised at how a huge 500 kg cyborg under the momentum of gravity elbow dropping someone is only a level 4 attack. I suggest also giving it fatal counter property, Tager's current fatals (2C and 6B) don't really see that much use. 6B has bad initial proration and 2C is... well, it's good, but situational.

Lol... and you think I wasn't joking? :P

Guard breaking's already been taken care of... kinda: New 2C>6B gatling means you can go to 5D from 6B after breaking a primer with 2C, which means you'd be +2 on block, and they're closer to you thanks to 5D's pull. You can restart pressure with 5A>5b>2B and go into 2C again to take a primer and mix it up with 2C>4D or 2C>3C. You can say that they can poke you out of the 6B overhead, well, that's true. But you can also commit to 4D and stay safe, AND now with the new 5-frame 360B (punishable only on IB...or reversal) you give them a reason to be scared. And dude, 6B overhead at the speed of 4D? That's way too fast. Your 6A~B cancel is a brilliant idea on its own, but if we couple that with slide head>mag floor follow-up, wouldn't it be too powerful? We have to choose one of the two. I thought j2C was safe? *Checks frame data* Make it a lvl 5 move. Making it unblockable at a certain height (Tager can only go as high as his super-jump, anyway) would main Tager mirrors becomes an elbow-fest. 5D already has +2 frame advantage, while 2D has -1. What about 2A as anti-air? Making it AUB would be good, with faster start-up at 7 frames. And more untechable time to be able to combo afterwards. PS. I thought Mag was to bring them closer, not deal with them when they're already up-close?

Well, Tager still has a chance, you still need to l2p. ... Nub :D

Combo notation, please? I understand what you're trying to say; you want Tager to have less damage to compensate for the better control of space he'd gain through longer ranged normals. Making Tager have good mid-range to long-range pokes goes against his magnetism gimmick (which I don't think they'll do away with). So either mag has to go or he has to be super-king of short range with mag tools to bring them close.

@Manta: Oh. That'd be great, actually. Wait, didn't I already suggest this via the slide-head-clone with floor mag follow-up?

What move?