SansProtocol

Jesus, all the kids will play it, the parents can too, and the tournament players play for all the easy cash. THIS IS GOING TO BE BIG! (noitsnot)

I just took an hour to compare notes and different versions. The superflash stops them both and Haku starts after the superflash and hitstop. So, if you use Yukikaze to catch a projectile, they have effectively 60F (56 start-up and 4 hitstop, of course opponent receives none) to get out of the way. In CS1, you would have 72F (57 + 15) to move and 50F (35 + 15) on Super Yukikaze. I could be wrong but from the notes that I took and the notes for Yukikaze in the frame data, I think that's all correct. BTW, thanks for the info on superfreeze length and why Super Yukikaze's startup was quicker.

See the first sentence in my post:

I'm sure you meant to title this the "Makoto v Hakumen" thread. Anyway, since I think sharing mutual information is key to improving the community, here's my take (changed to Makoto's POV) that I detailed on the Haku boards. Moves to watch out for: 2B 5C/2C 6D/5D Kishuu/Enma FC Hotaru CH 3C Ground Game: Haku's 2B has incredible reach. He will use this to discourage ground approaches along with 3C. Not only is it +2 on block but he can cancel 2B into 5A/5B (both are AU) to react to air approaches on whiff. He can use Kishuu -> Enma to go under your 5B/6C and any other above-the-waist attacks so use 2A/2B to beat it out. He can also use Enma to punish a backdash so be aware of that. 6D is a nasty thing in this matchup as it will uncover any holes in your blockstrings. An good example is the brief gap between 5CC and 6B, which 6D can activate through. This can be easily avoided if you're aware of holes and can mix it up with throws, lows (2B/2C), or use the bait to reset with a CH into your optimal starters. If a Haku player is using 4C in this matchup to do anything more than to establish space (even then), your 5B and 6C will beat it out anywhere closer than about its' max range. Any farther away and you can backdash out of the way. That or you can bait 4C, air dash over it and capitalize on the whiff into your j.B/C CH combos. His 6B is low invulnerable through startup and active frames, so it will beat your 2B, 2C, and 3C. It won't do much damage (even on RC) but it's still useful for discouraging your low attacks. Air Game: Hakumen's 5C/2C are great anti-air tools and 5C on AA CH leads 3.6k plus lots of corner carry for 2 stars. 2C is effective against Asteroid Vision as it will cover almost of the area in front of him. As always, watch out for Hotaru if Hakumen has at least two stars. FC Hotaru will lead to 4k with his corner loop even as far as about midscreen. All but one of his normals (2A) are air unblockable so use your barrier when approaching from the air. Overall: [*]He has ways to keep you out but most are not safe. Bait these unsafe moves (4C, 3C, 2C) and punish accordingly. [*]In order to stay safe once you're in, he has to play more D than one might like. Stay on the offensive and make him waste stars to try to keep/get you out. Eventually, your constant attacking will be too much and he'll be at a great disadvantage without meter. [*]Most importantly, keep it fresh. Don't become predictable, bait counters in your blockstrings, use throws/lows/delayed body blows in your mix-up. There are some Haku/Tager only resets that will help you confuse and break the Haku player. Hope this helps!

I heard you're one of the few Tsubakis to fear from the other mainers, so if you ever do pick up a Fightpad or get used to stick, add me on XBL. mAc's a much more complete Haku overall, AdventusXVII has crazy good offense, and I'm good with high risk situations (counters and the like, even though I get frustrated and mash at times). Those two other than I would be the best to get practice with on XBL.

In my years of playing Magic, I have learned to refrain from saying "strictly better". CS1 to CS2 downgrades to Yukikaze: Loses ability to get quicker start-up when connected during superflash (for obvious reasons). Increased cooldown from 2 to 3 seconds (120F to 180F). CS2's Yukikaze is much better overall, but is now almost useless against projectiles as the quicker startup for Super Yukikazes threw people off in CS1.

That is true. Being far enough away to cancel in time with 22D/214D but not too far where move whiffs is the main issue. If you know the sweet spot, you're good. Thanks for the information, Batousai.

If he's REALLY familiar with Tsubaki's timing, he can CH 3C her out of her charge. Cancelling into 214D/22D makes no difference as they have no foot invul. I never said anything because most Haku players I know would either just block or do a counter because it's a bit risky, but the option's there.

As a person who has barely played Vampire Savior, what would be the most important things to practice or know as a new player coming into the game? Apologizes in advance if the info has been posted.

I'm subbing Tsubaki to be a potential close second/co-main of sorts. I planned on doing this for a while in CS1 but opted out until I knew Haku better. If you guys would have me, here's my info: Xbox Live Gamertag: SansProtocol Location: Tampa, FL Time of Day On: Nights (~9 PM-?) I've added a bit of input in the Match-up Section to help with the common knowledge. Anyways, hope to be playing some of you soon! Thanks.

Some overall tips: Stay aggressive, shake him up, and make him work for his stars. Bait his 4C as it is great for punishing on whiff. Stay unpredictable with your 236x shield charges. If the Haku player sees it coming, he can easily 5D/6D the move for 2k+. As it has been said before, don't over-commit with your blockstrings as any holes can be 6D/2D'd. Instead, uses throws and place delays in your blocked combos to bait the counter and punish. All of your DPs except for your Install (D) DP are projectiles, be wary of any meaty 2C/3Cs as they have 7/8 frames to cut projectiles. What will happen is your DP will miss and you will get hit by the subsequent void that was made, leading into an easy to confirm combo. You can make distance between you and the Haku player to charge (as he has to hop over to you) safely. However, I would only do so when he is low on stars. 2C any air approaches and be mindful of your distance as 4C will CH you if you charge for too long and the move leads to good corner carry. Finally, keep him in the corner and if you have to, midscreen. Hakumen has a vicious corner game and it would be best to avoid the situation. Hope this helps.

@Spark: I wish the attack had a 35 frame start-up. :P @MAdBater: Definitely CS2's. It's a bit more discreet than CS1's Superflash giveaway and the extra 15 frames are so good. @WolfCrimson: No problem.

Use 2B to discourage ground approaches. Not only does he have great range with the move, he can cancel 2B into 5A which allows you to stay safe and protect yourself a bit against some jump-ins even on whiff. If you want to beat 5B clean, you can Kishuu -> Enma right under it. However, you should just play it safe and any of the following: 1.) Pushbarrier her out and respond with appropriate measure when you have enough space. 2.) 6D Makoto's 6B (her overhead) in blockstrings as well as use 5D/6D on any move you can react to that you couldn't just block low. And for the love of Sweet Baby Jesus, don't use 4C in this matchup. Believe it or not, 5B and 6C will beat out 4C almost anywhere less than max range and CH 5B/6C . Also, whiffing 4C against Makoto will grant her a nice CH j.C combo and if she baited it, a parry. Both of these on CH can lead to 7-8k with enough Heat. In summary, if she beats your spacing and gets in on you, respect it. She does have some reset shenanigans against Hakumen after j.CC in a combo into 2B or throw so be wary of that. Other than that, play this match safe. Block low, react to overheads and jump-ins with 6D, stay out of the corner, and always keep in mind your distance and spacing.

Super Yukikaze no longer exists in CS2. Instead you get a mildly more subtle Yukikaze that last over twice as long as it did in CS1 (12 -> 27 active frames).

They're all 22F except for Arakune's, which is 46F (because he loves to be different and teleport).

Eh, that happens sometimes. It would have been a good post then. I would say that being a pad warrior that I'll even admit that my execution is better on a stick but it's just not that comfortable to me yet because I have used a pad for so long.

Nini, come on now.

Try using the hitstop of a move to remind yourself to let the pad/stick return to neutral. Also, probably working toward a stick is the best thing to do. I hate using stick and I still have one because the 360 pad is incredibly terrible for execution.

What do you use? The D-Pad/Thumbstick on the 360 controller or a stick?

I found a nice little corner combo off of instant overhead (12 frames total) j.B: (4) j.B (rising) > Tsubaki > 6C > 66 > 5C > Gurren > 2C > j.2A > falling j.2C > 2C > j.2A > 66 > j.2A > j.C > 5C > 3C [5078] Don't know if this is truly optimal but 4 stars for almost 5.1k damage off of an instant overhead seems good to me. Just wanted to share to the rest of you guys. EDIT: It's character-specific but I think this will work on most characters. Platinum's tiny hitbox makes the 6C and Gurren fail.

I agree that 6D is the better alternative but I preferred to actually listed anti-airs against it then the obvious "just use counter". For 5A/5B to beat out a dash-in j.B, you'll need enough distance to throw 5A/5B out safely without the threat of j.B stuffing it, which is a little over half of his airdash distance. Any less and you'll get countered or trade with him. A lot of this matchup involves Hakumen carefully hitting the opponent around the max range of his attacks. If you don't, you'll be punished. If you just let him come in on you and try to react to him, he'll probably opt to just get a free dash-in. You have to keep him out until you have enough meter to do something. At 4C range out, you still have the advantage as you can cut or easily counter most of his projectiles. However, keeping him out safely is a big issue I see with this matchup and a few others.

This is the Hakumen vs Jin matchup thread. I think you may have gotten confused somewhere along the line. Anyway, I would also note Jin's 5B as it's a good combo starter and decent anti-air (AU). Jin's 623B has had untech time greatly increased and can combo into 2D/5C in the corner. Another move would be Jin's 2D as it will beat/outrange Hakumen's 4C. Lastly, 2C is AU and will FC almost any aerial assault Hakumen can use short of a nicely-timed j.2C. I've been experimenting with some things and 5C seems overall good in the match-up (on the ground close to max range). 6D seems like the best thing other than Hotaru against Jin for a lot of things. So if I had to sum up our tools in this fight, it would be: Hotaru - Seems to go without saying but you have to make it count. 5C - Good against Jin at midrange and leads to good damage. j.C - Useful anywhere close to max range. Any less will get you punished. 4C - Same as j.C. Good against Jin's Ice Swords. 6D - Great tool against Jin's 5D, 6B. 5D - Great against 2D and when Haku can put Jin into or close to the corner. 5A/5B - Good anti-airs against j.B if you have enough space. Otherwise, j.B will stuff or trade with these clean. Hope this helps!

As you may guess, this match-up is worse than it was in CS1. She has access to new/better starters and her gun hit a little harder this time around. Haku's trusty CS1 counters worked wonders in this matchup and though they still do well against her Drive attacks, the risk/reward ratio is much higher now. Midscreen: Watch out for 6A, 6B, 3C, and 2D. These will be the attacks that will usually net Noel the most damage outside of the corner. 6A will be her staple anti-air and is AU, so Instant Barrier to land safely as it's -12 on block (-11 in the air). 6B is an overhead that can lead to 3k+ midscreen but you can 6D it in response. 3C is her slide kick (hits low) and will go right under 4C and 6C. Due to 3C's amazing range, it is best to block and punish with 5C/Renka for good damage. Corner: This is an area where Hakumen DOES NOT want to be with Noel. Again, watch out for 3C and 2D as well as FC 4D. Thoughts: Although the damage that Hakumen dishes out may not be as good as Noel's is and his Drive Counters may not be at the level that they were in CS1, his gameplan is still the same. Stay patient, use counters sparingly, and block/punish unsafe moves like 3C.

Just to let people know: Tager's Mission #9 is bugged. Apparently, the dummy can't be magnetized during that mission, which is needed for the AC whiff. Even the demonstration screws the combo up.

PM'd you with the updated code for the combos.