Fluck

I'm here because of C0R's avatar. And also to find out how Mu works, not enough people play this character.

It feels like the untechable knockdown lastslonger now. 5C 2C j.214B 5C 2C was already somewhat tough in CS2, but you actually have time to dash 5C 2C after j.214B now, so the link is probably less tight.

I agree that Hakumen is not necessarily easy to use and learn. Just that ease of use is not factored into the ranking in tier lists, hence my own opinion.

I...Ok. I concede my point.

Current Hakumen is braindead because of 6A, better meter gain, and better corner carry. Did you see the Hakumen mirror? One would jump at the other Hakumen and barrier block cause they would lose to 6A if they did anything else. He always has meter to Hotaru too. Do you really think Ragna is brain dead? I can't really think of a character in the game who has to work harder to actually hit the opponent in CS2.

How can character design prevent a character from being S Tier? I think you're confusing S Tier with 'Being easy to use'. The current Hakumen looks extremely braindead btw.

There's a very large number of moves that are jump cancellable on hit only. As for special cancel, I know Noel's 3C is an example of a move that is only special cancellable on hit.

Thanks for the correction, IndigoNovember. Renka's P2 is rumoured to have been further nerfed to 55 from BBS. Even if it wasn't, inserting a 65 proration so early in the combo will kill your damage, so Kishuu is more optimal.

Yeah, now that more info is out and confirmed, it does seem like you still cap at 6000+. For the record, 5C Renka Kishuu is 5900+ in CS2 with 2 loops. I guess stunedge exaggerated somewhat due to how strong Hakumen is perceived at the moment.

stunedge's post: http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?12549-Japanese-BBCSEX-Tier-List-(OFFICIAL)&p=1157022&viewfull=1#post1157022 Consider that 5C Renka Kishuu 6C is already 6000+ in CS2. If rumours of a buff in his character combo rating or buffs in individual move proration are true, he can easily do 7-8k off the same combo.

As you said, what I mentioned are not major weaknesses but I had to point them out cause he has no flaws in any other areas. He is no longer weak to zoning in CSE.

I think if you time it right you can, startup for j.D + active frames is roughly equivalent to start-up for burst. After that both of you fall down but Noel is above the opponent and will thus recover later. But well, that's just theory on my part. Yeah C0R, but since it was specifically mentioned on BBS I assume that it actually happened to the poor guy who posted.

Responses in bold D:

Do you think Spark is the best player in the world? People do not claim CS2 Bang is S Tier just cause Dora steamrolls people with him, individual skill has nothing to do with it. So, let's say we have an S-Tier character with a shoryuken, like CS1 Litchi. As long as Litchi players don't block and mash Tsubame Gaeshi instead of learning to deal with pressure, CS1 Litchi wouldn't have been 'S Tier' any time soon! What's the difference between this and a Hakumen mashing D? Weak players do not mean the character is weak. You're fooling yourself if you think that Dora and Satoshi didn't think with Bang in CS1. As for why I believe he will be S tier: - Meter gauge buff is a strong overall buff cause it gives him better mix-up, damage, and tools. - He has gained even more tools against zoners with projectile-invulnerable Kishuu, making it basically impossible to zone him out compared to CS2. - Increase in damage due to more stars and things like j.B -> j.2A gatling, as well as better proration. Midscreen damage is high now, which is a huge difference from CS2 where he was inferior to so other characters midscreen or even near the corner. Reward is unbelievably high in the corner if you trust what stunedge says. - He gained back an anti-air, basically making his defensive game as complete as it reasonably could be. Almost all his weaknesses from CS2 were removed. The only problems are the lack of a true DP and average mix-up. These aren't so deadly because for the first point, he has counters, and for the second, he is designed defensively. So, these problems aren't significant enough to drop him below S. Note that this IS my personal opinion and could easily be wrong. I made sure to say so in my first post.

I think he'll be solid S for the whole game. Of course it's still way too early to tell for sure, so it's just my own personal prediction.

I'm pretty sure that the opponent recovers before Noel does if he bursts through her j.D.

? Means I am not sure of the translation

My japanese isn't too good so correct me if you spot a mistake. 弱化点 Nerfs ・jBの下方向薄く j.B's vertical hitbox worsened. ・ハイダーゲージ回収率少なく Haida gives less heat. ・ＣＲ６Ｂ遅すぎ d.6B slower startup. ・Cの攻撃レベル低下?(C>バレットが繋がりにくかった) C attacks reduced attack level? (C > bullet rain does not combo). ・JDに弾無敵?(弾以外はわからず) j.D projectile invuln? ・立Dの無敵おそらく減少(後半部分がごっそりなくなってる気がする) 5D has reduced invulnerability, seems to be in the latter half. ・J4Dがいらなすぎ、これから無敵なりj4D絡めたコンボがでてくることを期待 I'm not sure on this at all, but seems like j4D is more required now. ・4Dの横方向薄く 4D horizontal hitbox nerfed. ・体感だけど2Aの硬直か発生が伸びた Just a feeling but feels like 2A has longer recovery and startup. ・オプ鈍化（体感CSと同じかそれより早い） Optic barrel has been slowed down [but, apparently,] (Feels faster than CS) JD弾無敵を弱化にいれたのはバースト撃たれて死んだからです Projectile invuln j.D is a nerf cause they can burst through j.D and instead of flying away you land and get blown up. こんなのΛ2D対空とかにしか使えない気がします。 Feels like it can be used against lambda's 2D. 強化点です 期待してください Buffs ・空対空からダウンへ Air to air, descending from jump jA>jB>jc>jC>jD>CR6B>6C>D>C>Bloom trigger 2400 damage ｊＤの受け身不能時間が長くなってる？ jD's untech time increased? 中央だとブルーム性能変更のせいで起き攻めいきにくいしjDあたらなかったら アラクネ空投げ確定とかになるし、高すぎるとレイドからJB～ってなるけどけどとうとう空対空からリターン来ました I can't really tell what he's saying here, sorry. ・下方向に弱くなったjBだが横に長くなった。↑のコンボももちろんいける jB has a reduced vertical hitbox but a better horizontal hitbox. Can do air combos (I think?) ・強化ではないが2Cのノックバックは変わっていない。むしろ減少？固めがあいかわらずつよい Not a buff but 2C's knockback has not changed. In fact, could it have reduced? Blockstun is still as strong (I think?) ・4D、CRＤ、CR6Cの受け身不能時間増加 4D, chain revolve D, d.6C have longer untech times. コンボ Combos 端付近でDから4000近く,2Dから3500近くでます Near corner, combos starting from D do 4000, if starting from 2D it does 3500. Dor2D>6A.>6C>6D>Bloom Trigger (wallbound)＞6C>4D>(CR6C)>Assault Throughー＞6C (wallbounce) >HjD (escapes from corner) >6D>B>C> Bloom trigger. 同じようなコンボでA,2Bから3000オーバーでます。 The same combo starting from A moves and 2B does over 3000. ハザマが入りにくかったり端よりちょい遠いと入らないのでそういう場合は6Cで拾う前にAを入れると少し安定 No idea. 2D、4Dはいつもどおり使えます Use 2D, 4D as usual. 今回は弱くなるとこ弱くなっていい感じだと思います。 Dで食ってきたんだよって人はちょっと無理そうなんでキャラ変えてください

I'm sure it's cause of buffs to his moves' damage and proration and I think his combo rating might have gone up.

Strongest is Haku huey It's mostly stuff you already know but: バング変更点 ・立ちD…通常ヒットで空中に浮く 5D gives float on normal hit ・JD…乗算補正強化 jD has better proration (no idea p1 or p2 though, I can't tell from the term) ・各種手裏剣…ヒット時に下方向に落下、ただしD釘の上昇時は上に吹き飛ぶ All nails give knockdown on hit on the way down, but D nails will cause opponent to rise up if they are also rising up. ・C釘…乗算補正弱体化、ヒット時の有利時間増加(おそらくヒットストップ増加) C nail has weakened prorate. It seems that hitstop on C nail has increased and this gives you more time to do stuff. ・地上投げ…ダメージ1000に。中央でも壁バウンドを誘発。空中ダッシュでキャンセルでき、そこからコンボ可能。 Ground grab gives 1000 damage, has wallbound. Can airdash cancel to follow up with a combo. (Jump cancellable throw?!) ・6C>JD…立ちくらいに対して、jcしないと当たらないキャラがいる。6Cのノックバックが上昇したためか？ I'm not so sure here, but it seems like it's saying you need to jump cancel to hit some characters with 6C j.D. My guess is they put in a 6C j.D gatling maybe?? 6C seems to have higher vertical knockback. ・コマ投げ…補正がキツくなったらしい。 Command grab has harsher prorate Current combos ・2A>5B>6C>JD>2B>6C>J4C>JC ・2A>2A>5B>2B>6C>JD>2B>6C>J4C>JC ・JD>2A>5B>JA>JB>J4C>J4C>JC 1800 ・Command grab rc>5C>6D> firepunch >5B>6C>J4C> air firepunch >5A>5B>JA>JB>J4C>J4C>JC bluebeats at some point in the combo apparently. 【4000] ・2D>JD>C nail>JD>C nail>5D ・5A>5B>2B>6C>JD>C nail>JD>C nail>5D ・Throw> airdash >J4C>C nail>JD>5C>6D ・5A>5B>2B>6C>JD>2B>6C>J4C>JC【around 2340】 ・Midscreen throw> airdash> J4C>C nail>5C>6D>Daifunka【around 2940】 ・5B>2B>6C>JD>2B>6C>J4C>JC【around 2700】 ・Midscreen throw＞J4C>C nail＞JD＞C nail＞JD＞C nail＞５D (Personal note: wtf is this combo) ・2D(ch)>5C>6D>Daifunka【3972】previously 4632 Oh yes earlier on bbs someone said 'Do 6A Daifunka!', not sure how valid this is.

He says he only touched the character slightly, but it seems like 5A has harsher proration.

Did you find extra nerfs? I think with what we know he's been handled very well, still plenty strong.

I think it's proration. EDIT: actually, it might just mean changed/revised (to be weaker/stronger)

Just some stuff I got from jBBS yesterday, but Hazama can still do combos with 6D 4D j.8D in them, the difference is that after Jakou you can only do dash 3C instead of j.6DD, which is what we expected. There's a hype backthrow combo which is backthrow -> stance -> stance cancel, j.6DD. Combo with Gashokyaku in it: 2A -> 5B -> 3C -> Jabaki -> 6C -> 66 5C -> 2C -> Gashokyaku -> 5C -> 2C -> 4DD -> j.B blah blah, 2500 damage.

Well I'll just give it a shot, an actual translator should correct me :P - Corner combo starting from 2A and into DD gives 40% back and does about 4400. - Midscreen combo starting from 2D goes into air combo. - After midscreen grab, 3C -> rush can be picked up with 2C if at corner, combo hasn't changed. - Meteor and 2D have same move proration regardless of level. 2C also has same move prorate of 70%. Harsh. - 6B is not effective on crouch (??!!?) - j.D has greater untech time, can combo into comet cannon. - D has longer slide time. - I am unsure on what he's talking about regarding 2C, but he goes on to say it prevents comet oki!