Fluck

The reason Ragna crosses over on IB and not regular block is because regular block has more pushback than IB. Just in case you wanted to know.

1. Well, if you look at the hitbox http://www.dustloop.com/guides/bbcs2/frameData/mu/2B.html the reason that's doable is because the 2B is spaced such that only the red box touches Ragna. Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I believe that in such a case, Tsunugui will also clash, so again, no advantage to Tsunugui. As for the Dead Spike point - I misunderstood what you meant initially. I understand that DS can be spaced such that both ID and Tsunugui will lose, and cases where both will win, but my point is that there is no situation where Tsunugui will win and ID loses, whereas the reverse situation exists, so ID is a better option in such a scenario. I think we can leave this particular point about DS alone though, because it seems like we understand each other already. 2. This is where we disagree, because I find that Mu is usually not in the advantage in the usual range after barrier pushback, whereas Ragna is. Unfortunately, it's hard to argue this with words, so I'll be back tomorrow (maybe earlier) with some video evidence to prove my point. And if the videos show that you're right, I'll gladly concede this point. EDIT: Ok, got my facts wrong on Tsubame. I concede the point to Huey and bakahyl.

Yeah, I bet you could do 6D j.D JC j.A j.C j.D on chars like Relius and Tager.

It's cool, I'm just explaining why I don't think it'll work. I heard j.D get an untech time increase only, but KayEff would probably know since he has the mook.

You can't land and then do a rising j.C. There isn't enough time. j.D is level 3, so it has 16 frames of blockstun. Jumping is 4 frames and j.C is a 12 frame attack, and fuzzy guards only last as long as the opponent is in blockstun, so you don't have enough frames to land. You might just barely be able to jump cancel into a rising j.C but I really doubt you can combo off that afterwards, even with a rapid cancel.

1. Let's look at the hitboxes. http://www.dustloop.com/guides/bbcs2/frameData/ragna/623C_1.html http://www.dustloop.com/guides/bbcs2/frameData/mu/623C.html As you can see, ID's hitbox does cover the bottom half of his body as well, so there is no way to low profile it. I'd need you to give some examples of moves that ID whiffs on. It's possible to space certain moves that they clash with ID, but Tsunugui will clash as well in such situations, so that's no advantage to Tsunugui. Similarly, I can think of no spacing where ID will lose to DS with Tsunugui winning, so I'd need more elaboration on that too. 2. For most strings, the distance remains incredibly dangerous for Mu to set-up steins or Habaya, even when instant barriered. Retreating can also cause her to lose space and she does not gain the initiative. In other words, she has no real good option at that range, which only makes sense since that is not her best range. This is not at all comparable to Ragna who can just stick out 5B and either land a counter hit or at least force the opponent to block most of the time, smoothly transitioning from defense to offense. Yes, Mu appreciates being pressured less than Ragna, but doesn't that just prove that she is weaker defensively?

Foot-property invulnerable moves.

1. It isn't always a problem but its disadvantages surface more often than you think. Since you brought up pressure strings, I'll use two such situations as examples to illustrate my point. A standard Ragna blockstring of 5B 5C Dead Spike will lose to Inferno Divider, but Tsunugui will lose because of Dead Spike's disjointed hitbox. Tsunugui won't work against Jin's air ice swords either. For example, a blockstring such 2B 5B 5C jump cancel j.236D to bait anti airs will work against Tsunugui as well, but Inferno Divider will beat anything Jin does except barrier block. So there are several situations where ID works and Tsunugui doesn't. The point about Litchi is another topic, but she does suffer from requiring staff to be held. In addition, Tsubame can't be RCed, which is a huge flaw, and it doesn't nearly have as much horizontal range as ID or Hirensou. Itsuu is a viable option at times but isn't reliable. 2. I don't have much to say here except that I believe ID + Ragna's backstep is better than Origins + Mu's Backstep, because ID is considerably better than Origins, and because Mu's backstep is less significant. However, I disagree with your idea that barrier guarding benefits Mu more Ragna. The barrier pushback usually results in the opponent being at a mid-range that is more suited for Ragna's 5B than Mu's 5C. Mu's 5C compensates for its relatively longer start up with longer range (similar to Ragna's 5C) and also passively benefits in neutral from 6C covering the range outside of it. These advantages don't really materialize after barrier blocking because the opponent will be closer than the optimal range for Mu, which is usually outside of her 5C range or further. 3. Well, we both agree that the extra primer is a disadvantage, but not that significant, so I'll leave that point alone. Regarding your point on Tager - he suffers big disadvantages that nobody else does, and I think Xie's post explains it well enough, so I won't elaborate more.

Actually you can get 6B Dead Spike after Belial Edge more often than you think. For example, 5B 5C 2D RC 5C 5D (1) 214D air combo into belial 6B works. If you get as 6C starter I am pretty sure you don't need a 6A after 5D, just do 5C. xlolxolx, I'm sure your combo works if you go into air combo -> belial after 5D, then do 6B dead spike D divider stuff. Also has better corner carry.

Attempted Answer: @ bakahyl Ragna has a higher defensive rating than Mu because of the following reasons: 1. Although Mu's guardpoint on Origins is useful, it is an advantage that rarely surfaces. Origins does not clash more than ID either - clashing is not a result of guardpoints. The reduced CH state on Origins is not significant; if it's baited, the opponent has 23 frames to do a CH punish on block, which is enough. On the other hand, the much weaker hitbox on Origins is a weakness that surfaces very often. For example, it is impossible to bait ID on opponent's wake-up by jumping and then airdashing backwards, because it has so much range, but that is not the case for Origins. Another example of this weakness is that it is very easy to backdash out of Origins' range and prevent Mu from RCing, but much harder to do the same for ID. 2. Mu's backdash, although great, is still not her favoured option for escaping strings and wake-up pressure. This is because it is only invuln for 5 frames. It is thus very possible for Mu to be caught out of her backdash by strings that Origins and and ID would beat (for example, Ragna's 2A Gauntlet Hades or 2A 5C will beat it if Mu backdashes after 2A). It also loses to active moves such as Ragna's 5B. Another point against it is the fact that it very rarely reverses momentum, unlike Origins, and thus offers less reward. Indeed, even when it goes unpunished, Mu still often finds herself under pressure (e.g. whiffed Ragna 2A into dash 5B will not be able to punish Mu if Ragna timed his 2A wrongly, but even then Mu still has to block) While backdash does have its defensive uses, the situations where it would be favourable to Origins are few, and this reduces the weight of the move in terms of defensive viability. I find that Mu's backdash is most useful in neutral, personally speaking. 3. Aside from the earlier two points, Ragna also has basic statistical advantages over Mu defensively. He has one more Guard Primer at five, which is a very significant number as he can CA and Burst with two primers remaining. In addition, although both Mu and Ragna have 10,000 HP, Ragna very often ends up with more thanks to his drive, especially if the opponent chooses not to barrier block blockstrings. Even if the opponent does barrier block, Ragna is easily capable of stealing 700-800 HP per corner combo. Thus, after two corner combos, he would have more than 11,500 HP (more than Jin and Bang), which is a very big advantage.

I am a scrubby theory-fighter, but let's join in the discussion! I believe that Bang's neutral viability assessment is false and should be increased to S rank. I feel that he is stronger than Ragna in the neutral game for the following reasons: 1. Although his 5B is not as comparable to Ragna's 5B, and he lacks any moves that give him to cover as much of the screen as Ragna's 5C, dash 5A is an extremely viable option at closer ranges that makes it harder to deal with him in the closer mid-range game. Ragna lacks such an option. Bang's 5B is also still a very good and respectable poke and is harder to jump over, and its extended hitbox is not as weak as Ragna's. 2. He has two air options and his air normals are buffed in Extend. Although Ragna's j.C is extremely strong at far ranges, Bang has similarly strong options because of this extra air mobility, coupled with how good his normals are in their own right. For example, his ability to jump and airdash puts him at higher altitudes which is usually favourable in an air-to-air spacing battle. In addition, while Ragna struggles in neutral against zoners, Bang's mobility means that his match-up against such characters is usually in his favour. 3. Although Bang lacks a go-to anti-air option, he has a variety of ghetto options to reduce his weakness in this area, such as 5B, j.A, and even 2D and TK command grab. Bang's greater tendency to be airborne also reduces the chances of his ground-to-air weakness surfacing. While I accept that it is a real weakness, I do not believe that it is significant enough to drop his viability below S when his strengths are considered as well. 4. Nails. Nails are an option that Ragna does not have. Airdash into single nails can be incredibly effective in punishing the opponent from doing even basic movement options, and Dnails cover a very large amount of space and allows Bang to transition from neutral to offense very effectively. Nails also allow Bang to summon Bumpers, which further improve his movement options. I made an edit about my opinion on his strength.

If you press A+B+C+D, you will rapid and automatically do a D move, so you can't rapid that way unless you want a D move.

Lambda is way harder to block than Ragna with just 4B + sickle oki alone, nevermind crescent feints. Bang has command grabs, automatically harder to block. Hazama is about 20 times harder to block than Ragna. Litchi, wayyyy harder to block thanks to faster overheads and free-form staffless pressure + staff setups. Makoto is definitely harder to block, just based on 6B and her command crossups. You don't block Tager either, you just guess. Blocking Tao is definitely harder too.

Honestly enough time has passed that Ragna's tier placing won't change much. Tong, Ragna IS easy to block compared to the rest of the cast. He just makes up for it with more damage.

Don't worry guys I'll save the thread from Star-Demon AXIS not only does Hazama's chain buff make his gaps into j.B tighter, it also allows him to throw out another chain earlier and is overall just as bad times for Tager as it ever was. As for Ragna's match-up totals, I think the main reason is that it's very easy to remove or add 0.5 to his match-ups depending on how strong you feel he is. For example, I would remove at least .5 from the Mu, Hazama, Haku, Lambda, and Arakune match-ups. That would drop him to only +5.5.

Figured as much. Then is it possible to do bubble oki and cover it with 2A? It would make Plat's life a lot easier. Bombs, Missile, and Cat Hammer are also really good at beating up on Noel in neutral, even when she decides to do random drive. Just suggesting some reason why JP might see that match-up as even.

Does bubble beat Noel's drive?

@Cirno: Hazama went into Ressenga and got CHed while airborne, the removal of emergency tech on CH only applies on grounded opponents. I've had something similar happen to me while I was using Hazama's own 3C.

He isn't kidding, Ragna gains heat pretty well.

Extend has been out in Japan for ages and this is a Japanese list. Not saying that you're wrong other than that. However, don't be surprised if later lists have Ragna with no bad match-up anyway. I personally think Ragna's at A+ with Bang.

It's great that we're able to have a serious discussion. 5B is overrated but still good. To beat it in that way requires you to hit his extended hurtbox, such as with a 5A or 2B...If used in such a way, you open yourself up to a lot of risk because Ragna can punish you if he DIDN'T hit 5B at that time. He also has the new and improved j.C which is something many players don't consciously realize is a powerful tool. It controls an incredible amount of space in the air and is hard to anti-air because of how high up he can throw it out and have it land anyway. The difference is he gets damage off everything now. D Divider confirm from 2P starting position leads into almost 4k now and is MUCH stronger compared to in CS2, so he doesn't really need meter for that. Previously, there was too much he had to do when he got in, but now that isn't the case. Corner carry is consistently stronger now because j.C j.D does not drop and neither does Belial Edge into Hell's Fang, which adds about 1/3rd screen carry to his combos. For example, j.C 66 5B 6A TK GH 5B 5D into air combo would have ended with ID in CS2, but he can move into BE HF now and corner people from 1P starting position even. Bursting his RC combos (which all do close to 5.5k) is a problem because leaving yourself with no burst could mean eating a huge BK combo later. Greater damage inherently buffs his mixup with greater reward and j.C now gives him fuzzy guards on some chars. So that aspect of his game is stronger too, just less noticeable.

Pretty much everyone in Japan agrees Ragna is S. He isn't a rushdown character anyway, he's a zoner.

Just one thing I'd like everyone who read this topic to know. Generally speaking, this kind of motivation doesn't last for very long. After a few months, people lose their initial hype and then nothing gets done again. St1ckbug can't be making godlike posts every month in order to stoke enthusiasm, after all. Please, if you want to do things, make sure you're in it for the long run, because we will need a lot of time and effort in order to get anything sbustantial done for this game.

I discovered a way to improve your execution for doing 22C RC Carnage Scissors. Instead of doing 22C A+B+C 632146D, just do 22C 632146 A+B+C+D. This applies to any other drive move as well. Just something I thought I'd share for anyone who might be as fraudlike as myself.

Just a minor error - you can't time emergency teches. You probably just mean neutral tech.