TITANIUM BEAST!!!

Re: Makoto, my guess is that CS1 and CS2 scared them into making her suck, and they're too afraid to make her too good again. Tsubaki I just don't get. There's a lot of things that could make that character annoying, though. Or maybe she's a lot better than America thinks she is.

redsilversnake: Again, I did not necessarily attribute those opinions to you. I said your perspective only makes sense if you held those opinions. The fact that this happened because you did not fully explain yourself is not partially your fault, it is 100% your fault. For 5D: I've already explained why he has this move, and the fact that it actually doesn't give all that great a reward most of the time (you have to either have meter or corner to capitalize off of 5D, and that's only if they've already had upper weakness applied). Further, it's still a 21 frame overhead, which while fast by BB standards, is still slow as snot, plus you will learn to expect it a little more once you have upper weakness applied. It's -4 on block, -7 if IBed, which means most characters can 2A punish it if they're within range, and if it's spaced to be outside of that range, there are times where he won't get as great a followup due to being out of range of 5B. I really don't see this as being too good by itself. Having this plus really good normals is pretty good, but again, Azrael is not exactly in a good position to continue pressure at times because of the stubby range of his oh-so-great-on-block normals. Combined with how tough it can be for him to get close, and altogether I don't see why this is "too good". If Ragna or Jin had this, then yeah, nerf plz. But as I've mentioned multiple times, within the context of the character, it seems fine. I don't get why 2C is "too good", either. As an anti-air? Seems to be situational in that aspect, and even then the reward is pretty lousy unless you already have upper weakness applied, in which case you probably shouldn't be jumping at Azrael. It's admittedly pretty safe if blocked, but otherwise I don't see where you're coming from. Putting a good anti-air on a character who you would typically try to stay away from does not seem like something "too good". Airk: QQ. Sorry your character sucks, stop taking it out on characters who aren't overpowered. And if you really think the designers have no idea what they're doing, then don't play the game. Simple. This is what I did when I got tired of Soul Calibur, there is no reason to waste time playing a game if you don't like it.

So yeah, if weather permits, someone please come out and play GG with me tomorrow. Pretty please?

lol everyone will have Azrael backdash now!

You've provided zero justification for why Azrael needs nerfs. Nobody agrees with you. I say that perspective only makes sense when the ideas I've put forward are in place, and you whine about me putting words in your mouth, which is not something I'm doing. I'm just taking your perspective and saying it really only makes sense if you hold those ideas; if you don't hold them, then there is no justification for your opinion. Again, Azrael is decidedly not top tier, none of his abilities are starkly overpowered when present in the full context of his character design and the game itself. Why should he be nerfed? You have yet to answer this question, so that leaves me only to assume what you think, based on the logic you've used. If you don't want to feel like I'm putting words in your mouth, then justify your opinions a little more clearly. Again, the only justification that you've given for your opinion was based on your prior experience playing a weak character, which you have since retracted since said justification was overruled by other information. Explain yourself better. Again, Azrael's buffs are largely fluff and will not make any serious impact on him as a character. In addition, as mentioned multiple times, the backdash nerf may significantly affect him, and so we don't know really how he will look in this new version (the Growler change may end up being a life saver if his BD got nerfed hard). So again, what is the justification for nerfing him, outside of the simple opinion that something he has is "too good" for some unknown reason?

Oh look, here comes someone to prove my point for me! I'm sorry, did you just mention two characters who have regular dashes? From a design perspective, they should both have a much easier time actually getting inside than Azrael. Staying inside is a whole other story. How so? My point was that nothing Azrael has is inherently broken, and he works as a character design because of those strengths. The fact that characters like Tsubaki and Makoto FAIL as character designs does nothing to change this. It makes more sense to be mad about them than to be mad about Azrael. So do I! We actually agree on this point. I've said so in multiple posts since the one you're quoting. I'm not sure if you jumped to this point without reading those, but you might want to go back and read them if that's the case. Sometimes things get changed because they don't fit in with what the designers think is appropriate for the character. That doesn't mean everyone is going to agree with those changes. Heck, I don't think the changes made to Ragna (my main) are very significant at all, and the BE change is stupid to me. But he's actually a pretty stable character in this version and I think the way he plays fits in line with what the designers intend for him, so as long as the only people bitching about him are the people posting on Dustloop, I don't think anything is gonna change anytime soon, whether I like it or not. *sigh* Neutral jump kills Gustaf. You get a free combo if you jump at the right time. QQ. For a character like Tsubaki, who has access to all of the normal mobility options in the game, something like a fast advancing move with a good hitbox that is pretty safe on block most likely IS too good, from a designers' perspective, especially if it's something that made the character significantly better than she is now or was previously. This isn't Street Fighter, where characters take a risk just walking forward at the wrong range: you have fast dashes that can be cancelled at any time into jumps or Barrier (or even better, jump and Barrier! Covers both angles, mostly safe, free combo punish on players who attempt bigger, laggier pokes to stop you from rushing in). Azrael instead has his teleport, which covers only a set distance, has a very limited mobility, and is only cancelable into jumps. This gives him his own options for getting around, but I would definitely say it is NOT equivalent to the normal mobility options that almost every other character in the game possesses. Again, look at this from the way the developers look at it and it makes sense. When you take into account that Azrael himself isn't overpowered, it will make sense from a player's perspective as well. Get mad at ASW for making Tsubaki bad, not for making Azrael good. As I mentioned, this perspective makes no sense. Azrael buffs are mostly fluff and insignificant, and will not change him a whole lot, which is good, because he's fine where he is. You wanna be mad about Tsubaki being bad? That's fine, but don't take it out on characters who are not overpowered. Or better yet, just play someone else and quit your whining. Similar case to Azrael, IMO. Jin is a character where it's really easy to over-nerf him because he's all about being the total package. Even then, he's still not top tier, so they're probably really leery about how much they want to change him. If you want evidence of this, look at the see-saw he and Ragna have been doing between each game: CT: Jin secret top tier, Ragna not very good CS1: Ragna really good, Jin not so good CS2: Jin really good, Ragna not so good CSEX: Ragna top tier, Jin not so good CP: Ragna actually pretty good (just no one on DL wants to admit it), Jin really good (but probably not as good as everyone on DL thinks) They are probably afraid that if they nerf him too much, Jin will dip right back down again. Now, as a bitter Tsubaki player, you might be okay with that, but I don't think most other people would be, and the developers don't seem to think it would be a good idea either. Deal with it.

You might not see it that way, but when I'm trying to consider your logic for why his stuff should be nerfed, that's the only solution that I can come up with. Nothing that he has is overpowered when taken in the context of the whole character and the game itself. If you take his strengths and look at them in a vacuum, then yes, they seem too good, but you could do that with almost any character in the freakin' game, and the only type of person who would do that is someone who doesn't understand that when you want variety in a game when it comes to characters, you are going to end up with characters that have really good stuff, usually. The only way you can have everyone be truly fair is to have everyone play in a similar fashion, which is kinda boring. If you just wanna nerf something because you personally think it's too good, often you end up making the character too weak in response. Is Azrael decidedly overpowered? (Answer: No) Does anything he have stand out as being entirely too good and not necessary for the character to have? (Answer: Perhaps, but nothing you've mentioned falls into this category) Does Azrael consistently dominate in competitive settings, like tournaments? (Answer: A resounding NO) So why the hell would you want to nerf him? Make the weaker characters better and bring them up to his level. That would make for a far more interesting outcome. This statement pretty much falls in line with the train of thought I'm seeing here. Please don't use weak characters as the baseline for what the game should be. Rishtopher: I think if you enjoy playing a character, even if they are weak, then you should continue to play that character, while hoping and asking for them to get toned up in the next version. My statement is more towards those who are frustrated with their character and thus seem to think it's okay to just nerf all the strong characters down to the level of the weak ones. While this is one way to balance a game, it is a lame one, and there's no reason for it to happen, especially coming from the company that made the GG series.

Seriously. If you don't like that your character is weak, don't play them. That, to me, is a stronger statement to developers that the character needs to be buffed. It will also more than likely increase your enjoyment of the game. But unless a character is seriously overpowered to the point that everyone agrees they're too strong, don't call for nerfs.

Lucalibur already pointed out the short range of many of Azrael's normals. As for Gustaf, that move is +1 on block, IB it and it becomes -2. His fastest normal is 5A at 6 frames, after IBed Gustaf it's more like 8 frames, which most characters can 2A. When doing Gustaf at neutral, random neutral jumps cause it to whiff and grant free combos. Seriously, get over it. As for safe moves or fast overhead, this would be relevant if Azrael was a normal character with normal movement options and easy ways to regain offense, but again, with his lousy range and wonky forward dash, he doesn't have as many good pressure resets. Give the safety of Azrael's normals to a character like Ragna and players are gonna go to town. As is, it's basically a compensation for his weak points. He has really good offense if he gets inside because getting inside with Azrael requires some work. You can't just dash forward and randomly use Barrier to cancel your dash and block safely to get inside, you have to commit to something. Regarding dash getting him out of safe jumps, the character has no other defensive options, leave him ALONE. Even with the Growler fix, it's still not exactly a wonderful reversal. You have oki options outside of safe jumps, use them. With crossup 5A, again, the character is supposed to have good offense when he gets in, and it's not as if it's unblockable or anything. Azrael isn't even my main and I think nerfing him would be unnecessary. It just doesn't make sense. The only reasons someone would want him nerfed is that either they're salty about losing to him, or they for some reason think that there is only a certain level of acceptable strong stuff a character can have, regardless of whether or not their design balances out their strengths. Since I'd rather not accuse someone of being a whiner without evidence, the only possibility I can see is the latter, which is why I ask; do you really want every character to play the same? Because when you start balancing out characters that way, that's what will happen, whether you want that or not.

His moves are supposed to be safe on block, that's the point, his offense is good because he has a hard time getting in. Ditto for 5D being fast, he gets no reward for without a weakpoint anyway and the reward he gets for it when he does have a weakpoint is not much unless he either has meter or corner. His dash is too good? Seriously? And for his specials having guard point for no reason, you have Valiant and Hornet which are unsafe on block and then you have Sentinel, which is just, well, do you really see people abusing Sentinel? It's as if people have no sense for character designs which by nature offer different kinds of strength. Do you really want every character to play the same way? I should call for nerfing Izayoi because I don't like the way she plays, having free 50-50 mixups on wakeup is not cool and she gets too much damage off of her 5B in Gain Art mode.

Azrael needs nerfs? Seriously? Get out. With as much trouble as that character has in certain matchups, leave him alone. None of his so-called buffs are going to be entirely game changing on their own, with the possible exception of Growler, which is the way that move should have worked in the first place.

The BE change is most likely to prevent transitioning to full combos from BE when you are somewhat close to the corner, as opposed to completely in the corner. I wouldn't be surprised if most of the combo routes using it in the corner are the same. The D ID buff is nice, a subtle hint that ASW would like Ragna players to use the move more. The other two changes are basically "fixes" to make moves behave the way they should. I would reckon that if there are any other changes, they are most likely minor and will have minor effects, otherwise they would probably have been mentioned. Just goes to show that ASW is pretty happy with how the character is working out, despite how people on Dustloop may feel about it.

Yeah that's the classic IAD loop combo, sorry I haven't kept the thread updated with recent stuff. I don't see these combos as often in +R though, the new level 2 combos may make them obsolete.

Interesting combo, but I can't think of much reason to use it over 2D RC combos.

This is pretty much how I feel. The so called slower speed is all in appearances, the actual pacing of the game and speed of movement seems the same to me.

*watches videos* Wow, really guys? I was expecting to be super disappointed watching these vids, but thankfully it was nowhere near as bad as some people here are making it out to be. Hype remains.

A lot of this will depend on Arc's goal with this new system. If they're trying to get new players into the game, a mechanic designed to get them out of GG's historically strong wakeup game would make sense, which would probably be Blitz Shield. Only time will tell.

6B-2C-5C-6C = wouldn't this create too much push out for both hits of 6C to connect, Tong? I doubt you would still get high damage if 6B didn't go into 5C directly. Maybe off of 5B, but I don't think 5B pushes away as far on hit, that and you're usually not point blank when you hit someone with 6B. In any case, it's all theory fighter right now. As far as both of Ragna's overheads being bad, honestly, most of the overheads in the game are not that great. Valkenhayn is pretty much the only character in the game who has a really crazy high/low game outside of oki situations, and that's more because of his unique design. Making 6B a little faster probably wouldn't make much of a difference in Ragna's mixup game, and really, even right now, people still get hit by 6B, even if it's not that often. I would prefer more flexible Revolver options, personally.

I think the easiest solution would probably be to give back 2C and 3C after 6B, but not 5C. Without the 5C-6C gatling, getting high damage off of 6B midscreen is not really there, but you have some flexible string options with 2C and 3C, and you would have situational high damage off of the 3C -> 22C route. I'm not really looking for higher damage anyway, Ragna wouldn't need it if his pressure options were more flexible. I'm more interested in what would make him more fun to play. I don't agree with the concept of the character having bad offense just because his neutral is good and he has a good reversal. That might be how the designers would like us to play the game, but that's not how the game is actually played at a high level, and the strong characters don't have these problems.

I wouldn't say he needs better stuff, I just think he needs more interesting stuff. He is pretty boring after a while. I really want like, all of my 6A chains from CS1 back. And the 6B chains too. Make 6A JCable on block again. If you have to, take away 6A's ability to float on standing hit, I would be happy to give that up for getting all that other stuff back. It would just make him so much more fun on offense, IMO.

Haven't fought a good Zappa in +R, but even in vanilla AC it can be a tough fight for HOS. You kind of have to hope the Zappa player will screw up. He has ways around a lot of your normal approaching methods. You need to make good use of Charge to both increase your odds and make him play outside of his normal approach. And your defense must be on point.

Will try to make it out this week to WNB. Will be OOT this weekend, otherwise would get some more games in.

Nice matches, a definite improvement.

Out of town next Saturday. Otherwise I would come, been doing too much training mode and not enough matches.

Re: overwhelming offense, how do you really define it? IMO HOS doesn't have it, even with his buffs. You still have to read people. As far as always pressing for the advantage, GG is a game where one guess can turn whole matches around. You have to have good defense and a sense of when to back off or you will get hammered repeatedly by these characters who can generate massive damage off of just random stuff. Having this sense also works to your advantage in that you will be able to punish people who just swing for the fences; it's another form of offense and is also known as giving someone just enough rope to hang themselves. When you play a character like HOS, who thrives on making smart reads, you need to just take a step back occasionally and let the other guy kill himself for you. That being said, I kind of agree that Sesshyru is too passive. Especially in oki, I think I mentioned this before but you NEED to be decisive. There is a difference between being cautious and being too hesistant. Also, charge more plzkthx.