Dreize

Either that, or others such as Drops, Zekuso, Masashi, etc have been playing much more. Suuya is also using those weird/unique combo's that he did in his latest combo video. w[j.236B > 2D > > 5D] > 2C, etc sort of stuff. Seems like a waste of wolf meter in some situations. And yeah, I also noticed that Drops didn't use command grabs much either (and when he did use them, which was rarely, he did it after rapid set-up's that almost never worked). It was still nice to finally see him, though. I almost never see w[5C] > 6D > 5D > Throw stuff. I find myself guilty of dismissing those set-ups as well even though I am fully aware of them. Just feels too easy to dis-respect especially when against certain players. I'll start listing "NAOO" videos as "Nao", thanks for notifying me. I don't know about you Kiba, but I am truly infatuated with our new wolf normals. Specifically speaking: -w[5C > 2D > 5C x N], even though we do not have a 6 frame low that chains into itself 3 times anymore; we can still evidently do this. -Rising w[j.C] (meter-less wolf over-head), what else needs to be said right? This is simply fantastic. -w[6D > j.A > j.C], the fact that w[j.A] chains into w[j.C] as a valid double-overhead blockstring is great IMO. Add on the fact that w[j.C] has an interesting looking animation (twist body, overhead kick with back of itty-bitty wolf feet) and I become quite excited about CP Valkenhayn. Even though he was toned down quite a bit, he still thankfully looks very solid. Zekuso your second favorite? Interesting, any particular reasons as to why? I personally prefer Masashi.

I feel kinda bad for Suuya in that 37 minute set against N-Otoko, he only won 1 game if I recall correctly. That Rachel player was seemingly very strong and knew how to disrespect Valkenhayn's pressure very well. Also, it seems like one of my suspicions has been verified today. j.C being geschwind cancellable in OD actually has a semi-decent use as a meter-less IOH that leads into a full combo. IOH j.C > OD > 3D > Combo. Kiba, any thoughts on that "Drops" fellow? I saw some extremely questionable rapid cancel's from him, but he seemed to be pretty solid. From what I've seen, I'd compare him to someone like NAOO. The Valkenhayn dan rankings seem to be all over the place as well, and it saddens me to see that Hima is only currently in 5th.

Thank you for clarifying. This makes much more sense, and I can now see where you are coming from. I probably should have paraphrased it better. This is what I was referring to: Collapsed: Quotes: I'm quite content with ending the debate right here, as I would never attempt to force anyone into participation. Thanks for the interesting discussion. Until next time, Hakumen board. (which essentially just means until I get OD 6C > Shippu'd in CP for like 9k midscreen and come here to post blatant rage ;P).

I'm posting in this thread far too much for my own liking. Oh well. I've never understood the basis of this claim. Proclaiming to be a Hakumen main automatically converts a person into a player that is aware of Hakumen's deep intricacies and such? Since when do mere titles have such a strong intellectual basis? Blindly conforming to stereotypes and traditional traits is the near equivalent of making blatant assumptions. For example: Assuming that someone who is of Italian descent and prepares pasta is more knowledgeable at preparing pasta than a person of American descent who also prepares pasta based upon the notion that Italian's are stereo-typically associated with being proficient at preparing pasta. If I decide to completely drop Valkenhayn tomorrow and pick up Hakumen as my new main (this is hypothetical and will never actually happen, ever.) do I suddenly become more knowledgeable about Hakumen than someone who has been subbing Hakumen for 2 years and is regularly learning/evolving with him? No, of course not; that's just nonsensical. In short, what I'm trying to say is, immediately brushing someone off who could potentially be in possession of deep Hakumen knowledge based upon the fact that said person claims to be a Hakumen "sub" instead of a Hakumen "main" is just silly. Judging someone based upon character knowledge, length of character usage, etc is much more logical. Agreed. Though, I do ignore plenty of silly arguments that I see on forum's and such. At times, I just feel compelled to retort. Ah well. Please forgive me if I am making an incorrect assumption, but if this post's purpose was to debunk my previous post; it has failed on all accounts and thankfully all of my previous points still stand. On a side note, that is not the "Average of top 10 players"; that is the sum of dan among the top 10 players. The average of the top 10 players would be the mean value, which in Valkenhayn's case; is 15.4. (feel free to completely ignore this remark if you were referring to the average sum of dan in relation to weekly analysis's). Also, there are clear inconsistencies within those lists (1st List: Ragna is above Carl, Litchi, and Azrael. Noel is also above Mu and Relius. 2nd List: Litchi and Azrael being below Noel, Ragna, Mu and arguably Carl. Relius is also below Tsubaki, Izayoi, Makoto, Rachel, etc). And, to add to that, for all we know the current tier lists may have been partially based off of these lists. Regardless, none of this means much; so debunking it is most likely just a waste of time. You're initial argument was that Valkenhayn is undoubtedly an S tier character due to Japanese tournament results. I am not denying that Valkenhayn is a solid character in CP, I agree with that statement. However, concluding that he is an S tier character based off of Japanese tournament results is utterly absurd. Once again, there is no proper basis for such a frivolous claim.

Yup, hah. I'd just really like this thread to be thorough and well thought out. Perhaps I haven't put enough time into constructing the general layout. Ah well, I'll finalize on it sometime soon. I'm quite picky when it comes to these things.

I have two actually. I put them into the "Near Corner" sub-section for some reason (I really need to revise this thread into something more concise). I'll add yours as well because it uses the 6C > 3C ender. I would categorize that 6B FC combo as a "Near Corner" combo as well, I'll add it as well. Oh boy, these sub-sections.

I most certainly am. The reason being? Tournament results entail grey area's that cannot possibly be accounted for in full. Also, I'm not exactly sure about who these "10 Valkenhayn players" are who are supposedly on standout levels comparable to other standout players (my god, does it get any more subjective then this?). Explain the results you say? I can contrive plenty of possible explanations, however I can't in any way confirm that these reasons are in-fact genuine (if anything it just helps confirm my beliefs regarding grey area's and such). For instance, perhaps the reason that Valkenhayn players win more often then they should is because of the aforementioned fact that the population of Valkenhayn users is so little, thus match-up experience is scarce. Or, perhaps Valkenhayn players truly are a skilled bunch and because the popularity of the character isn't all that high only a select few dedicated players choose to main him and thus a good amount of tournament Valkenhayn players happen to be strong. Shit, maybe most of the time that high-level Valkenhayn players go out to play their opponent is coincidentally having an "off day" and aren't playing like they normally would. Maybe a lot of players happen to be intimidated by wolf mode and a result make terrible decisions that get them killed. I can think of plenty of reasons as to why Valkenhayn players seemingly do well at tournaments. Some reasons being more plausible then others, of course. All of them being completely fabricated, as well. I subscribe to theory fighting when tiering character's because even though it is flawed in some area's, it is much more absolute and much more logical. Branding Valkenhayn as an S tier character based solely off of Japanese tournament results is utterly absurd. I've never quite understood the mindset of someone who chooses to base a character's usefulness off of tournament matches whether it be related to BlazBlue or any other fighting game. Just seems illogical and silly. But perhaps that's just me, eh?

I must admit, that is seemingly a very delusional way of thinking. I'm 100% sure that you're entirely aware of current Japanese tournament statistics in relation to CP Valkehayn, but how on earth do high tournament results indefinitely equate to S tier characters? I was under the impression that players play characters, and characters don't play characters. Because, you know, I always thought that under a logical mindset people would evaluate character's based upon their individual toolsets and compare those aforementioned toolsets among the other cast members in order to rank them in something such as a tier list. Extend Valkenhayn is a very very strong character (arguably the best in the game), thus he received some some well-deserved nerfs in CP. Damage, meter gain, mix-up, defense, etc nerfs (he did gain a few nice little things though). CP Valkenhayn is currently the worst Valkenhayn iteration thus far (which isn't necessarily a terrible thing since he was solid in every game). CP Valkenhayn is a solid character, and I truly believe that he is somewhere in A tier. However, I do not believe that he is S tier anymore. But of course, that is just one person's opinion (and who knows, this may be an entirely premature opinion). Oops, I've gone off-topic. Oh well. Whenever Valkenhayn is mentioned I have some sort of semi-legal obligation to respond to whatever critique he is undertaking.

I've seen Valkenhayn listed as an A/A+ tier character in four tier lists, and as S tier in two (those two being Tetsu and R1's tier lists). If Valkenhayn actually ends up being S tier in CP by general consensus I will die from pure and utter laughter considering all the nerfs he got. I conform with this notion. Nice definition. Zero, Vergil, Viper, etc are all dumb characters IMO. Obviously this is very subjective (as are most things) but I consider Hakumen to be "Take him out of the game" status or maybe even "God I hate getting touched by this character" status or lastly "A very very strong character, but not full on dumb" status. It sounds like a bit of a contradiction, but it isn't. Ah well.

From what I can tell (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on any of these points) Hakumen was compensated in quite a few different area's. His changes were just one giant ploy. They nerfed Zantetsu's damage, yet they buffed it's proration. They nerfed his 6D's start-up, but gave it like a 40% proration buff. Nerf his throw damage by 200, but buff it by giving it stagger properties. Nerf hotaru's damage by 300, buff it's P1 by 20. Nerf mugen mode (which they had to do considering his new meter gain+OD+the he gains meter from countering projectiles) but allow it to be augmented by OD, etc. I've never really liked this character, actually; I really don't like him at all. However, I really couldn't care less about his changes at this point in time (just wait until I get 6C > Shippu'd in OD for like 9k midscreen). Or, looking at it in another light. Perhaps they had buffed him initially (this is an S tier character that we are talking about buffing, of course) and they needed to nerf him afterwards in order to attempt to balance things out (so they essentially took an S tier, made him S++ tier, then nerfed him back to S tier). Perhaps this was a part of Arcsys's master plan. Maybe they wanted to keep Hakumen as an S tier character without it looking too conspicuous. Because, somehow, this character managed to Zanshin the nerfbat. Ragna and Valkenhayn weren't able to do it, but Hakumen was. Leaving the character as is would have be too revealing, they needed to make people believe that they were actually changing him (selling them a new product instead of a re-hashed Extend Hakumen) thus they took the role of "We're changing how he plays, we want a more offensive Hakumen, etc". The whole nerfs/buffs list was only a facade. Arcsys wanted to keep him as S tier. This is how they did it. (Disclaimer: this could all be completely wrong)

Oddly enough this seems to be...

A few combos: Corner: - 5B > 2C > tk.214B > Forward Dash > 2C > 6C > 2C > 6B(1) > 236C > 2D > w[236B > j.236A > j.236B > 7C] > j.D > j.C > 5B > 2C > j.A > j.B > dj.B > j.C [4688 DMG, 64 HG] Midscreen to Corner: - j.C > 2C > 6B > 5C > 236C > 9D > w[j.B > j.A] > 5D > 2C > 6C > tk.214B > 2D > w[236B > j.236B > 7C] > j.D > j.C > 2A > 5B > 2C > j.D > w[j.A] > dj.D > j.C > (j.C) [4337 DMG, 59 HG] - w[5B > j.A > j.236A > j.236B > 5C > j.B > j.A] > 5D > 2C > 6C > 2C > 6B > 236A > 5B > 2C > j.D > w[j.A] > dj.D > j.C > (j.C) [3351 DMG, 48 HG] - w[5B > IAD > j.B > 3C > j.A] > 5D > 2C > 6C > (Forward Dash) > 236C > 2D > w[236B > j.23A > j.236B > 7C] > j.D > j.C > 2A > 5B > 2C > j.D > w[j.A] > dj.D > j.C > (j.C) [3458 DMG, 48 HG] Midscreen: - w[236A > 236B > j.236A > j.236B > 7C] > j.D > j.C > 2A > 5C > j.A > j.B > dj.B > j.C [3340 DMG, 38 HG]

w.5B is by no means a "bad anti-air" it's just not as good as it used to be. It will still beat out certain air normals due to it's fast 7 frames of start-up. However, it only has head invulnerability from frames 4~6 nowadays so it's pretty lackluster in that department. It trades a lot now as well.

Kiba, you messed up on a few of the video's in your above post. Here are the fixed versions if you feel like editing the OP: Nao (VK) vs Chibaken (HK) Nao (VK) vs Satsuno (TK) Also, this was just released; part 2 of Suuya's initial Valkenhayn combo video in December. Valkenhayn Combo's Part 2 By Suuya

Sweet, more FC exclusive 6C combo's. We really didn't bother with those in Extend, and I'm glad to see that they are now more prevalent. Hima's 6C FC combo does 3822 damage and uses the w[3D > j.C] > dj.D > j.C > (j.C) ender. I'll add it to to the list, thanks. And yeah, the last 2 cannon's really don't matter in terms of input notation (as long as they're not the same); especially since we're already in the corner. If we can get 4k off of a 6C FC in the corner I will be quite pleased.

Also, and I probably should have mentioned this earlier. But feel free to post combo's in this thread that you happen to come across since I can't possibly catch everything that comes by, this is entirely optional of course. However, if you do post a combo; please try to cite a video source if possible. If you see a really interesting combo and can't transcribe it for whatever reason (lack of character moveset knowledge, busy, etc) feel free to post it in here and I'll do it. Discussing combo's and such is also welcomed and encouraged.

Please, try harder.

What is this thread about exactly?

Words cannot describe.

Yeah, I've seen it as well. I always just assumed that they were going for oki though. It seems to now have an awkward launch/float property eerily similar to moves such as Hakumen's j.D (except it doesn't launch as high) and it looks as if we'll need wolf mode to combo off of it.

Kiba, I had initially made a mistake with the Kieo (VK) vs Masaoka (TG) match when I put it up. Here's the fixed one in-case you want to edit the OP: Kieo (VK) vs Masaoka (TG)

No. Valkenhayn's 5C has always been air-unblockable. Stop pretending like you know anything about BlazBlue's system mechanics and let me explain. Red has always naturally been a color that resembles extreme danger. For example "Don't press that red button!" or "Don't fall into that red scorching lava!" or "There is a stop sign ahead, stop your car!". In this case, the red exclamation mark translates to "Get the fuck out of the way, Hakumen is using his un-blockable 6B!" You can't high block a red button, scorching lava, or a stop sign. So obviously, you can't high block Hakumen's 6B. It's basic mathematics, really.

I guess this means that we won't be witnessing the greatness that is Golden Tager? How disappointing.

Hah. Oh well, at least now we've (you) confirmed that the Wolf Sweep Loop is actually practical. Things are looking up for Valkenhayn.

I was thinking the exact same thing regarding the practicality of the h[5B] one (that's actually why I put it first). I'm not too worried about us building back the wolf meter, I'm more so worried about the actual wolf meter that the combo requires (which is, evidently; quite a bit). The good thing is that since these are technically loops we may be able to shorten the amount of rep's and use a less wolf meter intensive ender if need be. Still, 4348 damage from a h[5B] in the corner is quite impressive. As for the whole 236B~236B > w[j.A] link, it really doesn't look all that hard (it certainly isn't hard in Extend). I'm more so worried about the w[2D > 5C x N] mash, and how it will differ on different characters/hitboxes. And on a side note, some of those Tager exclusive combo's looked extremely fun to perform.