Loli Bacon

Good games every-nyan! Thanks for having me. ^_^

I think I might make this my signature.

Kokonoe gets far more off a CH 5C than any other character in the game, so this isn't plausible.

To be fair, that's with crouching. xD Again, if they're standing, damage is much lower. Her damage is still crazy regardless.

Matchup chart/tier list won't matter for that. Just tell your friend to stop being bad. On topic, can we close this thread yet?

D'oh, forgot a second P(A∩B) D= I knew I was wrong before, but I double checked like 4 times. Thanks for the correction.

Wrong. The standard is out of 10 matches, which means to win a single match is 30%. With the CORRECT value (math I just posted was per-round, and you were still wrong) the chances of the opponent at disadvantage winning a match is 30% (independent event) and the chance that the opponent wins 2/3 matches is ~27%.

Already did the math. In a 7-3 matchup, the chances of someone at disadvantage to win a match at an even skill level is ~26%. To win a best of 3 matches is ~18%

Official matchup charts are ones that are agreed upon the community. And if the game is going to die before we even bother learning matchups, then why are we even having this discussion?

I thought it was, but based on Errol's post, the math he seemed to use supports a per-round thought process. With the current definition of a 7-3 matchup, it's a 30% chance per match to win, and so to win two matches without losing a match would be .3 x .3 = .09 = 9%. To win 2 matches while having lost one is higher, at about 15.3%. This is assuming even skill level. EDIT: Made mistakes in my probability calculations. Doing it again now. EDIT EDIT: Nah, I was right, I just did it with a bunch of shortcuts. xD

Let's standardized what a 7-3 match up means. Does it mean per round or per match? Depending on the definition, probabilities change. In which case, it should be standardized to a best out of 3 rounds match. We don't really have official matchup data yet, she's only 2 months old. That's why I think it's too early to call for her ban.

7-3 is pretty bad, but it doesn't make them unviable.

The whole discussion here (at least, going by the OP), is whether or not to ban Kokonoe in a tournament setting, because she has lopsided enough matchups against a large portion of the cast that they aren't tournament-viable if she is allowed. Hence, her existence in the game/allowance in tournaments can potentially hurt the longevity of the competitive BB scene because a large portion of the cast becomes 'unusable' against her. Saying 'She invalidates part of the cast, but only if they have to fight her' doesn't work as a counterpoint. That's exactly the problem! No one is discussing anything BUT that. It's not a system mechanic or glitch that's hurting the viability of the cast in competition (like macros or the throw bug in Garou), it's the particulars of one overpowered character and how strongly they might affect the health of the competitive scene. That said, you're right; people will be able to use whomever they want in tournament and keep a 'sub' around in case they face Kokonoe, but it's an inelegant solution. Character specialists will suffer for it, for one. People who don't have the time or incentive to learn subs will suffer for it as well. And it's less important, but people who want to get into a fighting game in the first place often are discouraged when they hear that the character they want to learn can't compete with the Top Tiers™ and they ought to learn a second/better character. You're right, but again, none of her matchups are worse than 8-2, with most of them being 7-3s. 7-3 matchups don't make them unviable, it just makes her difficult to deal with. I'm just saying for those people who have 8-2 matchups against her (I'm pretty sure it's just Tager at the moment, might be someone else as more is uncovered) pick up another character who doesn't do terrible against her (Mu comes to mind). You don't know this. Most of the tournaments we've had thus far didn't have many Kokonoe players. The most recent tournament that happened had a Kokonoe mirror grand finals, but that is the first instance of this happening.

None of her matchups are 9-1 or worse. As a Kokonoe player, I know there are plenty of ways to stop me from doing things. I don't know what everyone can do in those scenarios, but I see her holes and weaknesses. I'm just waiting for people to capitalize on them. Even if she invalidates a character, that character would have to run into her in a tournament setting. This isn't specifically limited to Kokonoe, as characters like Tager deal with this all the time. People who say "she makes only 5 characters tournament viable" are wrong as that's too vague. She makes certain characters not tournament viable AGAINST her. If they never run into one, they're still fully viable. The people who use those characters need to realize they run the risk of running into a bad matchup; learn an alt. This isn't uncommon. But for a large portion of the cast (it's one character they have to worry about) this isn't necessary.

Nah, you'd be doing it for you. If you lost to a Kokonoe at a tournament because you lacked matchup experience, I couldn't care less. I'm sure you would, though.

Yes, I expect you to play against Kokonoes and learn what she's capable of doing. Is this your only anime fighting game you played? You should expect to put in effort, it's not something that'll take one or two matches to learn. Play against a Kokonoe, find a regular one online or something, and practice the matchup. Not having her is a handicap, but it most certainly IS one you choose; if you had enough money to buy the game, but not enough money to throw down $10 to pick her up, you should have other priorities than learning how to play against her because if you're having problems buying her to the point where it is no longer a choice, I don't expect she's even a real problem on a competitive level for you.

Your argument is that you don't want to spend money to learn the matchup. Fun fact: you don't! Just play against one online. It will be harder to learn certain punishes than if you had training mode with her but hey, your call. If you don't want to spend money to go into training mode by yourself to learn her punishes, that's a handicap YOU CHOSE. You can still learn how to play against her without buying her.

No.

I'd say Kokonoe is on par with CT Rachel in terms of set play, pressure and damage. What makes the difference is Rachel had better mixups and Kokonoe has better neutral. Kokonoe has unblockable setups, Rachel had guaranteed guard break setups.

In Guilty Gear, every character was considered viable, and there were some 8-2 matchups in that game. Are you telling me that for everyone outside of those 5 characters, Kokonoe has 9-1/10-0 matchups? Note: if you understand what I'm getting at, kudos.

I agree with this completely. Again, I'm not saying she's weak, I'm just saying she's not ban worthy. She's still stupidly overpowered. This logic doesn't really make sense. There are plenty of characters that are clearly better in every way in fighting games and aren't banned. The issue is whether or not allowing Kokonoe to stay unbanned will affect the longevity of the game. To be honest, the game will die in a few months anyway; the current anime FGC is extremely fickle. Whether you ban her or not, the game will die soon. Do we think the health of the game will maintain if she is banned at tournaments? I just don't think the character has been out enough, played at a high enough level against enough characters for us to make an assessment. I can play her all day and tell you "I think this character is stupid and overpowered, but shouldn't be banned" but that's just one perspective. Do we have enough players that have played against good Kokonoes to the point where they feel they couldn't improve on the matchup? Do you really think that in two months time, every character in the game has a competent player behind them that has learned the matchup? I think it's far more likely that people would simply ban her rather than deal with her or bother learning the ins and outs of her; it's the easier solution. This is why I suggested making a match-up chart; sarcasm. I just feel Kokonoe excels at telling the opponent not to fidget, and Blaz players aren't used to that.

We don't have enough matchup data or experience with the character to say what her matchups look like for certain. If we do, let's create a chart right now so we can compare.

Kokonoe isn't banned at the ranbats, is she?

Her wakeup defensive options are all OSd by the same setup. 2A meaty > react. She doesn't have a defensive game on wakeup either. Mid pressure string is a different story, but you should learn to deal with her defenses rather than autopilot your pressure. Yes, it's annoying to deal with, but it's easily dealt with when you know what to do. Disclaimer: I'm not saying she's bad or that she's not good. She's top tier. But she can be dealt with. I think it's too early for most of America to be calling for a ban because they barely know the matchup yet.

Fine. I resign. :v