Magaki

Loketest changes: [collapse] The informations below concern the loketest and might not be finals. Sourenga translated the partial changelist for 2.0 that was released November 20th. Here's the part related specifically to Teddie: TEDDIE: - j.2C can be used near the ground, P-Combo Route added so it can be cancelled from j.B - You can now use D-moves during the cooldown from Mystery Teddie SP - D Teddie Warp has hitbow for where it comes out System changes that might affect us: Bad Status - System message is now displayed when you get hit by a Bad Status - In Confusion, you now block whether you hold the lever forward or backward - In Spinning, the latter half where you can only guard has been removed - In Freeze, you can mash buttons to free yourself All-out Attack - You can hold the button to do the All-out Rush - Harder to punish on block Ground Throw - Super Cancelable Auto Combo - If you do Skill-moves in the Auto Combo, you get a "Bonus". Some Persona-attacks - In most of the C-moves, Persona is invincible during the start-up of the move (Until they actually appear on the screen) Finally, the Shadow changes that will affect Shadow Teddie: Shadow: - Burst gauge added, Reversal Burst is usable - Attack power increased - HP amounts has been individually changed - SP gain amount has been adjusted Shadow Frenzy - Only usable when Burst gauge is charged (Usable even if you don't have full SP gauge) - Unburstable - Adjusted the amount of SP moves use during the Frenzy - Activating Frenzy with max SP recovers Persona cards [/collapse]

I'll update this post everytime we get new datas concerning 2.0 Teddie. Teddie 2.0 changes: [collapse] Standing AA (Normal) The longer the button is held, the longer the recovery is After the 8th hit, can no longer be jump canceled Increased counter hit window during the move By holding forward and the A button, the performance of the move also changes Standing AAA (Normal) Reduced the active frames of the last hit Standing AAA (Shadow) Can be normal canceled into Jumping 2C or Sweep Can be jump canceled Standing B Can be normal canceled into itself for a maximum of 3 times Increased untechable time on counter hit Does not increased untechable time after a wall bound has occured Standing B (2nd Hit Onward) Increased recovery On the 3rd swing, cannot be canceled on block On the 3rd swing, can be canceled into jump or skills on hit Crouching B Increased downward portion of hitbox Crouching C Can be special canceled Jumping A Frame difference when airblocked worsened Jumping B On counter hit, after the ground bounce, can be ground techable Recovery is worse when blocked Jumping C Increased recovery for the Persona Jumping 2C Persona now appears from the ground Does not hit opponents on the ground Can be normal canceled into Jumping C, Jumping A+B, and special canceled No longer causes Fatal Counters All D Attacks Changed the attack portion’s blowback, reduced untechable time Persona can no longer appear offscreen Persona is no longer projectile invincible, only projectile invincible during the held version Crouching D and Jumping 2D Persona appears slightly farther forward Persona slightly bounces now Jumping D and Jumping 2D Increased landing recovery Now counter hit state during the motion Sweep Creates a different number of fish depending on the number of times the move is used On the 3rd time the attack is used, it creates 3 fish The hit property of the 3 fish version is different from normal All Out Attack Becomes invincible at an earlier time Decreased recovery time Jumping A+B On hit, causes a ground bounce No longer has an All Out Rush follow-up Adjusted total performance, now works as a single hit overhead attack Items Various items now have a set 1P or 2P color MF-06 Brahman / Heavy Armor Agni / Turbo Recon Dyaus Can be destroyed by an opponent’s attack Dr. Salt Neo / Mystery Food X / Muscle Drink Can be knocked away by both player’s attacks Can no longer be picked up as they are disappearing Items cannot be picked up when a player is projectile invincible Item pickup range increased Mystery Food X Now reduces HP when acquired Muscle Drink Rage time has been reduced Bike Key When both player and opponent acquire the key at the same time, priority is given to the player If the opponent picks up the Bike Key, they gain 10 SP and the bike doesn’t come Can no longer be picked up as it is disappearing Can only be picked up while on the ground Item pickup range increased Dry Ice Disappears soon after landing on the ground Mobile Model Varna On counter hit, causes stagger Now foot attribute D-Type Prithvi After set on the ground, becomes Armor Invincible When not invincible, can be broken by opponent’s attacks When invincible, blocks opponent’s attacks and attacks When an opponent is overhead this item, it attacks Is not Armor Invincible during attacks Amagiya Buckets After the second row, horizontal placement is no longer affected by screen placement Teddie Decoy Increased the opponent’s hitstun time On successful counter, attack active frames reduced Bearscrew (All Versions) B and SB Versions are no longer Fatal Recovery State B Bearscrew Increased untechable time On hit, floats the opponent and allows for follow-ups Worsened frame difference when blocked D Teddievision Reduced total recovery D Teddie Warp Added a physical attack during the rush portion Puppet Teddie (All Versions) Can change the trajectory of the B and SB versions by inputting Up, Right, or Left After the attack, the B and SB version now fall faster The B and SB versions now cause a wall bounce on air hit The A version now only causes a wall bounce when near the corner For the airborne versions, can act after during the drop Reduced the landing recovery of the airborne versions A Puppet Teddie Reduced the recovery time B Puppet Teddie (Air) Increased the recovery time 2D Teddie (All Versions) Made the hurtbox during the animation lower Mystery Teddie SP Can now do D attacks during the cooldown gauge of Mystery Teddie SP SB Tomahawk Decreased startup time B Nihil Hand Increased startup time Guard Cancel Attack Increased recovery time Certain Persona Attacks Persona is now invincible when appearing until active frames (Standing C, Crouching C, Jumping C, all versions of Teddievision) [/collapse] Random notes: Famous Teddie Player's twitter accounts: Souji Minto Maddo Moja Please, feel free to share your opinions and expectations about 2.0 Teddie.

Simply vary your approach. This is the only matchup where Hazama can't afford to whiff chains even with the A followup because Valk is fast enough to punish him for it or at least, safely get in. The best chains he got against Valk are jD and j6D. Which respectively loses against wolf run and wj66D. The ground chains make him a sitting duck and he can get punished by w5C/hjC because of that while he won't be punished that badly in the air. Defense-wise, barrier guard is great against him so make sure to abuse it. Fuzzy jumps also beat his stance mixups quite easily so if you have troubles reacting to them, don't forget to use it. The best way for him to call it out is to add 3C in his blockstrings but even if he does, he won't get much out of it meterless. He can combo off a 3C if he's close enough and do 3C>214D~66B or 3C>Jayoku but either way, he can't hitconfirm the 3C so if he goes for that and you block it, don't hesitate and punish that with a 6B FC. Offense-wise, IIRC, none of our OSes in blockstrings beat Jayoku. Except maybe hjC>RC>hjC as a meaty which will make his Jayoku whiff. That's why if he got 50 meter you will have to bait it rather than rely on OSes. His best bet to land it in a blockstring is right after a blocked w5C. Though, throwing out a Jayoku if you're doing w5C>3D4C isn't really something easy. You can go however for w5C>RC>w5C if you want to be certain that there won't be any gap. You can also try out the good ol' w5A/w5B>IAD>2D>wjA/wjB midscreen which will make his Jayoku whiff. Probably the only matchup where it truly shines.

Arc revo match: Maddo vs ?? Very interesting techs being used there. I'll transcribe them later in the gameplay thread unless someone beats me to it.

Also forgot to point out that jC meaty shouldn't be used against Shadow Labrys at all. If she presses D to make the Persona block (She always will), jC will first be blocked by the Persona THEN by Shabrys. Problem is that there is a huge hitstop that affects both Persona which gives enough time for Shabrys to fuzzy jump and escape. The usual 5AA>IAD back jC blockstring to bait DPs in the corner shouldn't be used too because of that.

To get the right height to not make the combo go offscreen, you generally want to be as low to the ground as possible so just go with 2B>jA>j236A if the opponent isn't too high after jA. You can also go with 2B>j236A if the combo you did before wasn't too long as it is much more consistent. Though, the most consistent way is usually after a jA>jB>jA>j236A ender in the corner but you have to sacrifice a few hundred points of damage for that because using 2 jB in a combo kills it really quick (1100 SMP). Here's a corner combo that you can do if you want to make sure you will always get it right: 5AA>5B>5C>2B>jA>jB>jA>djA>jB (2450 dmg) If you want to use meter, omit the double jump and do jA>jB>jA>j236A>j236236[D]>Sweep/214B/214AB>]D[ A few things about that combo that you should keep in mind. -It's actually extremely easy to use so you can be almost certain you won't drop that combo in tournaments. Also works quite well with netplay. -If you want item oki, do: jA>jB>jA>djA> delay jB>delay jD The delay between the last jA and jB is here to make sure the opponent is as high as possible before pressing jB in order to maximize oki. The delay after jD is here to make sure that the item will land exactly where the opponent is. Though, item oki isn't that great with that ender IMO. -You probably noticed that the combo doesn't have jC. It's actually done on purpose because this is what you should go for if you went with unblockable jC reset or if the opponent tried to DP when you went with the jB>delay jC meaty or didn't block for some reason. In the case of a jC starter, the combo should become: jC>dash 5B>5C>2B>jA>jB>jA>djA>jB (3317) If you have 75 meter and go for the unblockable jC reset, you get: 5AA>5B>5C>2B>jA>jB>jA>j236A>j236236[D]>214AB>]D[ (3764) jump>falling jC meaty>dash 5B>5C>2B>jA>jB>jA>djA>jB (3317) Should always give you around 7k which is most of the time more than enough to seal a round. Falling jC or IAD back jC will make most reversals and DP whiff and jC's short recovery allow you most of the time to do dash 2C FC to punish. Roll will lose because even if they get through jC, they are still in recovery while you're teching so you can punish with 5A CH. On some rolls like Teddie's or Kanji's, you can punish with 2C if you did falling jC as close to the ground as possible. Not teching will always result in the opponent getting hit too because of the automatic wake-up and jC's ridiculous amount of active frames. Keep however in mind that jC whiffs if you're too high due to some character's crouching hurtbox. Shos' and Marie's are pretty good example so go check in training mode the optimal height to make sure jC always hits.

5C>6D>wjB>wjC got a gap between wjB and wjC. If wjC is faster, we don't have a gap anymore. I did a mistake though. I just tested it with a friend and actually, in 5C>6D>wjB>wjC>w5C, there is no gap between wjC and w5C on normal block. Though, IB does create a gap that allow the opponent to DP out of it. If wjC hits closer to the ground, we might not have a gap even with IB. Anyway, you might wonder: "Yeah but what's the point with wjB>wjC still working from geschwind ? Any player who know the matchup will blow you before wjB even comes out." and you're absolutely right if you use it during pressure. However, I'm certain that you ended up playing troublesome matchups like Nu where they can do stuff like IAD backwards>jD>2D/6D where they do jD to catch you going in from the ground and if jD whiff, they do 2D/6D to catch you out of the air once they land. Well, 3C>6D>wjA/wjB actually blow up that kind of thing and it's something that I use quite often. That's why being able to have an option to blow up DPs with this kind of neutral tool is a good thing in my opinion. Also, mind telling me your thoughts on IAD wjB>wjC ? Always thought that the reason it was character specific was due to the fact that wjC stopped momentum. I agree with you on one point though, having Valk's crazy high/low mixup back is much better than having the command grab. It didn't really feel necessary before and we had no OSes based on it. Well, as long as the wolf gauge was well managed at least.

6B already hits Amane but you have to delay it as it depends of his height. If however you're talking about a hitbox change concerning either 6B or Amane's hurtbox, then we don't know anything about that. After checking some matches, I finally understood what happened to mondlicht. Before reading my explanation, please watch this first. The combo done was started with an N starter so Isa (the Taokaka player) didn't tech because of anything related to hitstun decay. I would say that it actually looks like Mondlicht's untechable time was roughly divided by half however, if the opponent comes in contact with the corner, it wallsticks and becomes fully untechable (so far, I've never seen anyone tech before touching the ground. I might be wrong mind you.). This is probably the biggest nerf we have had so far because it affects actually 3 things: -Human corner carry: Probably the first thing you might think of. However, we got ways around it especially with wolf gauge. -Corner oki: If you have been around here for a while, you probably know that one of the best oki we have is tk214B>6C>3C. Problem here is that because of Mondlicht's change, we might not always be able to do tk214B>6C if the opponent is too low. In order to get the right height, we would need to do 5B>2C>tk214B. However, 5B>2C drops in particularly long combos which means that if we try to optimize our damage output, the ender would become in the end 2C>tk214B>3C. This implies that we will have to sacrifice an important amount of damage to go for that ender rather than the jBBC or hjBABBC one. -Optimized corner damage: Mondlicht's nerf and the fact we have less time to hit with it would also mean that 2C>tk214B>CT doesn't work anymore. If we consider it this way, the only reliable ways to combo into CT would be 6B(1) FC and Corner throw>CT which indirectly nerf it and Valk's potential damage output. Few other thoughts: -About Rozen, I first thought that it was an important nerf but it actually allow us to corner carry from human mode without burning any wolf gauge. It also allows us to combo with his throw without using wolf gauge for a decent corner carry so the pros in my opinion outweighs the cons. -If wjC is indeed faster, it would mean that the IAD wjB>wjC route isn't character specific anymore which is quite useful. -The fact that Jasu tried to do jB>j214B>9D>wjB might imply that doing it is possible. If that's the case, it would mean that j214B>9D>wjB>wjA>human combos would still be a thing thus allowing us to conserve roughly the same corner carry by sacrificing some wolf gauge. In a few words, I would say he's pretty much Valk 1.1 with his 1.0 mixup back. However, he got now better ways to combo without using his wolf gauge which makes his vortex much deadlier than in 1.1. Wolf grab first felt like a huge nerf but I would rather have combos that use less gauge rather than rely on his grab like in 1.1. The fact that it got a special cancel however gives us a really interesting option midscreen. Matchups-wise, Litchi's nerfs should make the MU much easier for us. Some troublesome matchups like Mu, Rachel, Kokonoe, Azrael or Hazama also should be much easier. Characters who looks like they will be rather dangerous threats in 2.0 are Nu, Bang, Bullet (Her rewards being stronger and her drive still being amazing against wolf movement will help her quite a lot) and, maybe Taokaka. Though, it's debatable. Overall, we got a slightly weaker version than 1.0 Valk but if we consider the nerfs most of the other characters had, 2.0 Valk might be better matchup-wise than in 1.0. It's definetely obvious that he's much better than his 1.1 counterpart but figuring out whether he's better than 1.0 Valk completely depends of how much the matchups will change. A few other things that weren't mentionned before that we can see in this video that Kiba uploaded: -5C>6D>wjB>wjC works which might mean that we can maybe have no gaps at all if we do afterwards w5A. Best would be if wjC>w5C had no gap. -Air command grab only provides a soft knockdown which makes the oki off it not that great. -Corner wolf grab>2B still works. -BrjC looks like a viable meaty option.

Do you mind taking care of the combo thread if you're not too busy IRL ? I'm fairly certain here everyone will agree that you're the best man for the job.

No, I meant that if the untech time midscreen is the same as before, then yeah, your combo should work and will probably be the standard crouching human combo midscreen. Though, if the angle or untech changed, there are still other things we can do but it uses more meter. tk214B>9D>wjB>wjA (works in 1.1 too) tk214B>6D>wjC>dwjB>3D>wjA (works too but kind of a waste of wolf gauge) tk214B>delay 6D>wjA (doesn't work in 1.1 but will if the character falls faster)

I'm not sure to be honest with you that it would work considering j214B changed. We know it wallbounce in the corner but this might be because they reduced the untech time midscreen. Anyone saw a video where it was used midscreen and it had the same properties as the one we have right now ? And we can just corner carry with wolf anyway which doesn't really use that much wolf with either the old IAD jA>jB route or IAD jB>jC so it's not really a big issue.

We don't know anything yet about that. It seems that if you do 5B>5C>236C on a crouching opponent, you can keep comboing with 2C which is a particularly important human corner carry nerf. The fact that the float seems shorter also might imply that 236C>6B in the corner might not be possible anymore.

Rising wjC doesn't hit Relius or Hakumen but 6D>wjA>wjC works against the whole cast jC>RC>jC still works He mentionned 5C at the end though so I'm not sure if he meant w[jC>RC>jC>5C] or h[jC>RC>jC>5C]. I think it's human simply because wasting meter on wjC>RC>wjC is a waste when you can just do something lke wjC>brjB

6D>wjA>wjC works yeah. What we are specifically talking about is 9wjC raw used mostly as a meaty. Suya confirmed that it only works on Tager crouching. The video Jyosua posted is interesting though. Mikka used it once more afterwards but the Hakumen was standing. Maybe it actually works against him crouching and that was the reason why he kept using it. I'm actually gonna try to talk with Takenoko to see if we can get more information.

Nah, it was just something I was wondering. If wjA is back to S, maybe wjB would be back to being N. Did Suya mention jC>RC>jC perhaps ? Also, not sure if it's just me but in the video I linked, it seems like the regen during OD is faster. It's quite noticeable during OD wolf loops.

That's one of the big questions that would determine whether or not CP2 Valk is better than 1.1 or not. Unless they decreased wjC's startup, it shouldn't work. Also, considering that it was the most used wolf meaty, the fact that the Valk player never bothered to use it implies a lot. However, if wjB is indeed an N starter, then we are back to 1.0 in terms of damage considering the overall wolf damage buff. Most characters in 2.0 seem to have lost their old routes and have to go with completely new one. Though, Valk seems to be an exception. So far, the new corner combos are pretty much the same. Wolf combos are roughly the same too. I hope however that new routes will be found. Looks like most of the nerfs he took only affect his human corner carry (236C barely blows back, 2C>6C not a thing anymore) while wolf corner carry looks roughly the same (Though the fact that canons seem to make the opponent float lower might either helps or shut down some routes). So basically, if we want to have the sick corner carry our dear butler always had, we will have to use more wolf gauge. Anyway, my opinion is that no, you won't have to learn everything from scratch. Wolf damage overall is buffed except for w5C (though the loop still deals high damage so it's a slight P2 nerf). Like I debated with Kaiser though, we still don't know anything concerning human mode aside from 5B having 100 less damage. We need more datas to figure it out. On the bright side though, sacrificing wolf gauge for more damage is now much more rewarding so we will be able to go for the kill much more efficiently now. As for mixups, while it's true that we are back to 1.0 with the high/low mixup, the wolf grab nerfs are huge. So we are somewhat between 1.0 and 1.1 I guess. I would like to point out that I barely know japanese so my analysis is mostly based on what I can figure out of Suya's notes: -3C>236A>2A>2C route still works. -Looks like after combos finishing by wj236C, you can always do 3D>hjC>3C as an ender. Might allow to always gets OD Sturm out of any wolf heavy combos for max damage. Boost Valk's potential damage output by quite a lot. -High damage human combos seem to basically contain the ender sequence ...>2C>tk214B>6C>2C>6B>5B>2C>jBBC

Interesting video uploaded by Jourdal here. What we can confirm so far: -j214B wallbounce in the corner thus making the opponent float lower for corner combos. -Wolf grab does 1400 raw instead of 1500 -w5C P2 nerf. -brjA>w5BC>w236A>2C>6B>2C>tk214B>3C (2152 dmg) wjA is now S. -wB+C>wj214C whiff>5D>2C>6B>2C>tk214B>6C>3C>(Sturm) 2949(4011) dmg. OD Sturm deal around 1400 min damage now instead of 1600. -w5C>w236A>wjC does 1857 dmg while it does 1744 in 1.1. Either wjC got a godlike P2 buff or wolf canon now have a great P2. -wB+C>wj236A does 1832 while it does 1860 in 1.1 Considering that wB+C deal 100 less damage, it's either because of wolf canon P2 buff or wB+C got a better P2. Or both. -OD wolf Konigg raw does 3736 and can be RC. It's 3370 in 1.1 for human Konigg. 2704 without OD and it was 2466 in 1.1 with human konigg -OD wolf Konigg>RC>w5C>w236A>w236B>wj236A>wj236B>wj236C>wj214A>wj214B does 6692 dmg -OD(w5C)x9>w236A>w236B>wj236A>wj236B>wj236C>wj214C>w236C does 5324 dmg. We still have wj214X in OD doing ground bounces it seems. -w5C>wjA does 998 when it did 955 before. wjA's P2 is buffed. -w5C>wjA>wjC does 1430 dmg. Did 1308. wjC looks like it's buffed indeed. -5B>3C does 988 instead of 1088. Adding a 236A does 1377 when it was 1477. They probably nerfed 5B's raw damage by 100. -5B>3C>236A>6D>wjA>w5C>w236A>2C>6B>2C>tk214B>6C>3C (3148 dmg) -w5C>w236A>3C>236C (2061 dmg was 2039) route still seems to work. Pure supposition: -wjC doesn't seem to stop momentum anymore. You can see him falling while executing it during wjA>wjC combos.

I actually play both and the matchup isn't actually that bad. Actually, it's one of the few matchups when you can do whatever you want. It's impossible for him to mash out of 214[A/B] on reaction. 236A/B and tk 236A severely hurt his neutral and he can't cancel them. 6B cannot be canceled either and will often hit him if he tries to assault. When he tries to play patient because he understands that he has no way to get in or do anything against 236X, 6B and puddles, you can do assault j236A which will most of the time force him to block it and allow you to start blood pressure right away. His only reversals also are 360C and 623C. You can jump out of 360C on reaction during the superflash and 623C is quite slow and have a crappy hitbox behind so jumping behind him midscreen (You usually want to do jump>j[C]) will allow to make both reversals whiff. At the start of the round against 5B-happy Wald, you can just make him shut up with 2C which is a really pain for him to deal with on the ground because of its ridiculous speed and hitbox. If the Wald player is smart though, he will understand that his best choice is to try to deal with Carmine from the air because of how fast jB is and how he doesn't have any hurtbox on it while doing so allowing to beat several normals like 3B. That's why even if you bait his assault, you won't necessarily be able to punish it. Your best bet on reaction is to actually backdash>2C. Keep also in mind that he can't combo after assault jB if he did the jB as soon as possible(unless it's a counter). He however can combo after jC. Best way to beat whatever he might want to do in neutral though is with jump backward>j236A. Technically, he can try to throw a rock at you in order to stop you from zoning him but it's so slow it's not something he can rely on. As for your offense against him: go ham. His fastest normal comes out in 8f which makes it too hard to block 214[A/B] on reaction. It also makes it hard to deal with 2A whiff cancels on reaction too. His 2C also comes out in 12f so you shouldn't worry about being punished on reaction for assaults either. Pseudo-infinite blockstring also works both midscreen and in the corner against him. Make sure you dash a bit midscreen after any 236A. Only thing you really have to watch out in offense is his 360A which comes out in 3f and will be used if you're not careful with your spacing. As for your pressure itself, like mentionned, he can't punish 214[A] on reaction so everytime he blocks something, it's free blood pressure so you should abuse that. It's actually the only matchup in the game where you have guaranteed blood pressure. If he got some meter, he can try to 623C out of it or 360C so make sure to use 2B and 2C in blockstrings sometimes to catch any reversal attempts. Defense-wise though, you need to understand how Wald's pressure works. Best way for that is to go watch some of Fusemaster's matches. Midscreen, he's not particularly dangerous and backdashes are a pain for him to deal with considering his pushbacks and the numerous gaps in his pressure. Usually, his only way to deal with backdashes midscreen is to anticipate it and do 236A. Which can only combo into 236C and whiffs if you're too far. If 236A is blocked though, he's -20 on block. So go with 2C>6B combos and punish it accordingly. 236C however is only -6 which means you have to be really fast with your 5A to punish it. You can also shield it to make it -9 for additionnal GRD and an easier punish. Or a bigger one if you punish with 5B. In the corner though, his pressure becomes insane. And you will actually end up there quite often because of [4]6X which can be done after most confirms midscreen. If the combo was too long though, you can air tech forward and he will be the one in the corner. Back to his pressure, his most important move in the corner is 214A/B (the claw clash). A is +1 and B is +3. Both are projectiles and the claws doesn't have a hurtbox. The hitbox is also bigger than it looks like and it allows him to make frametraps out of any normals. Thankfully, the pushback is as great as the efficiency of the move. His safest and deadliest gameplan is to mixup if he's close with 2B (his only low) and dash 360A, frame traps from afar with 214A/B or assault in order to be closer (Or do stuff like assault j[C] whiff/j6C whiff>360A). If he's using frame traps, 214C is actually quite efficient on him and will beat quite a lot of things while allowing you to do a big combo. You can get some GRD by shielding but be careful with that because 360B is here to punish shield attempts. So make sure to be unpredictable with your shields and don't abuse it. Speaking of 360B, it will always be a gold throw whether done when you're in blockstun or neutral so make sure to tech them on reaction. It's a free GTFO ticket after all. Once you have your GRDs and Vorpal, you can decide to either CS and get some meter or guard vorpal if he's not too far. 214C is generally what you do when he's too far because even if he baits and block it, you're +6. When he's closer is when he's the most dangerous simply because you have to deal with his mixups. He got 4 possibilities: dash 360A, 2B(low), 6C and 236B(overheads) and [4]6A/B. The last two options can actually be easily reacted to so you won't see them that much. If his mixup attempt fail, he will end up too far to mixup and will keep pressuring you from afar. His 2 best ways to get in in order to start mixing up is with assault (which can and should be AAed with 3B at this distance) and dash B. Dash B is the safest choice, comes out quite fast and got a huge hitbox. He will either go for dash B>214A for a frame trap or dash B>dash B to keep getting closer. Whatever he does though after dash B will always have a gap so you can 214C afterwards. He also has several moves that are + on block. 214A is +1, 214B is +3, 6C (second hit) is +5 and 4B is +2. Obviously, the most dangerous moves are 214A/B simply because he can do them whenever he wants to. Anyway, while it's true that he's indeed top tier, the matchup is actually much easier than Gordeau's and obviously Merkava's.

After 2B for the 2B>jABC route, you have to slightly delay before the jA. Allow you to have Linne quite close to you and the ground when you do jC and will always make 3B>2C connect. Delay jA however works on the whole cast so it's better to learn the combo by practicing on her in order to make sure that it's universal. If you're at point blank, there is no difference. However, in several combos, 236B will whiff if the opponent is too far while 236A will work. There is also some instance when 236B> dash C doesn't work when 236A> dash C do. That's pretty much why 236B is considered to just be a neutral tool and not a combo filler. First, keep in mind that whenever you go for the pseudo-infinite, everytime you make your opponent block a 214[A/B], he has to guess whether you're gonna throw or keep the blockstring going so make sure to work on that and add it in your game. Carmine easily got the best throw game so abusing it pretty much a requirement. Learning 6B~AD kara throw helps a lot too. Forget about all that though against Merkava. There is also nothing wrong with deciding to just keep using the pseudo-infinite for a very long time. Keep in mind that not a lot of people are willing to block for 20 seconds straight and end up pressing buttons. However, if they do block for that long, it means that they are willing to respect you. In that case, you can go for 214[A]>mixup>]A[ which is simply our best way to mixup while being safe. MAKE SURE that the opponent respect you before doing that though because otherwise ]A[ will be canceled before you activate it. Of course, you're gonna lose some health by doing that. It doesn't matter though as long as you're confident and know for sure how to make your opponent unable to escape your pressure. Additionnal notes to Killey's list: Half-charge mixups in UNiEL are far from being as efficient as its MB counterpart. Problem with it is that the half charge is only slightly delayed which is still too fast for the opponent to react. That's why if you do half-charge 6C>2C and it opens the opponent up, it's not because he reacted to the 6C but simply because he tried to either jump out of pressure or mash reversals. So nah, it's not really something that can be considered reliable. As for assault jA, it's character specific and there are 3 starters for it: 236A>assault jA(hit)>236A hit>5A>combo midscreen or corner 214[A]>assault jA>]A[ assault jA>CS>jB Most damaging and easiest combo is the ]A[ route. The 236A route is the easiest and safest to setup (236A keeps hitting after jA if you had the right timing meaning you keep your blood pressure). Problem is that the rewards won't be that great and, most of all, it's quite hard execution-wise so it will require some work in order to consistently pull it off in matches. I would suggest to learn the 3 of them though as it's quite hard to block it even offline. IIRC, I made a character specific list in that thread but I don't think that I mentionned everything about it. It whiffs completely on some characters but it also whiffs on others only at point blank. I can't access my PS3 right now so I'll make a list again later when I'll have more time. Also, assault>delay jC is quite important simply because usually, jC is done right after an assault in order to make it as fast as possible (it technically got the same startup as Linne's jC or Hyde's jB which is 12 and they mentionned in Senaru's tutorial that Linne's assault jC is quite hard to react to. Don't have any other Linne, Carmine or Hyde in my offline scene so I don't know how hard it is to block IRL so I'll just trust Senaru.). So you will end up against people with the mindset: "If an attack isn't done right after an assault, a low or throw will happen so better throw now." Which will actually screw you up because of the landing recovery so definetely keep it in mind. If you want an overhead as close to the ground as possible, better do assault>delay jA. P.S: Thanks for the edits on the wiki Killey. It's quite neat now. I saw several mistakes though but I'll take care of it later and post exactly what I edited here in order to talk about it.

Thanks ! It's still way too small IMO and needs more content to be satisfactory but I'll definetely take care of it when I'll have more free time. I think it's still way too soon to really get accurate opinions on that. Only thing I can tell you so far is that the only matchup definetely not in his favour is Merkava. He either dominates or is even/slight advantage/disadvantage. Overall, he seems much closer to high tier than mid tier but the reason why we can't be certain at this point is because his pressure is hard to deal with and require a good defense for anyone to deal with it which takes some time. I would suggest you to simply keep waiting and contributing to discussions in the matchup section which will probably have more activity in a month or two. The only combos completely dropping on her is anything leading into 2B>2C. Otherwise, all the combos work but she requires a specific timing for most of them. Good news though is that if you learn the timing on her specifically, it will always work for every other characters (character specific combos aside) that's why she should be the most used training dummy for Carmine. Unless you want to work on 2B>2C combos/assault jA or any combos always dropping on her. -------------------------------------------- A few random notes: -Edited my first post in the matchup section in order to keep track of our matchups. -Tried to add j6B in my game lately simply because that +11 sounds amazing. Problem is that I have yet to see any situation that makes the move shines and makes it better than any other option: After whiff canceled 2A, move gets beaten easily by most 5A mash unless the ones that hit low. Overall, the move got 20f startup without counting jump startup and the whiff cancel is more than enough to get the opponent to react to a pressure reset so they get away most of the time. It's just nowhere as good as 6B that becomes + on block at this distance or even going straight for 236A. As a meaty, recovery is too big to safe jump any kind of reversal. And even if the opponent don't reversal, the rewards aren't as good as 214[A/B] or 236A. Those two options are also safe against reversals if used as a meaty and they deal with back tech and delay techs much more easily than j6B. Cool as an anti-anti-air in neutral but j236B is much better. Angle is alright in neutral though but it will only cover an interesting amount of space when done quite high so you become - on block if you do it this way. Checked also if it could be useful in defense but it's ultra risky. Had an opponent whiffing a 2A, recovering, and still punishing me with 5A because of the long startup. Definetely a bad idea in defense. So yeah, would probably be a decent tool for other characters but for Carmine, it's kinda meh compared to his other options both in neutral and pressure. Move COULD have been amazing if it would have been possible to jump cancel on block but considering that you can't do it in this game, it doesn't seem to me that it's a move that will see a lot of use except as a combo filler. Unless someone found a better use for it ?

@Bling: I tried out 2GB's pseudo-infinite in an offline session today. It completely solves the problem with Merkava being able to fly away. It adds another weakness though, you can easily get thrown out of it and command grabs that lacked range to reach you like Gordeau's 214C and Carmine's will now work. It also doesn't allow you to bait 214D's as easily as Notsu's. While it's something that I'll definetely go with in the Merkava matchup, I think I'll use Notsu's more though simply because it's much safer. @Merkyl: For some reason, SAT isn't listed at all on horibuna. I think it might be because he often changes his handle name. Last year, he always had SAT so it was easy to find him. Then, afterwards, he stopped being called SAT and always went with different names everytime I saw him. Only way I had to recognize him was that he got a very risky and aggressive playstyle and always use the Flash Magic or Strange Strawberry color. のナイトアルト however is Naito (Or at least, that's how I remember they called him in a video.) Delay the jA and press 3B right when you land after the jC. Yeah. I really tried a lot of things to try to get any damage off that. Most stable combo I found who work on everyone is 22A>5BB>jCAB>2C which only does 2117 damage without vorpal. If you want more damage, do after 2C 214A(1)>236C>j[C]>dash 2B>2C. Also got a pretty good corner carry. Also seems that you can do 5B>delay 2C but the opponent ends up way too far away to follow it up into anything decent afterwards meterless. If you do 236A after 2C, it will only hit once. You can then squeeze a j[C] and hit with the tippity tip of the hitbox but the opponent is too far to do anything afterwards. 5B>delay 2C>236C always work though and allow you to go for the j[C]>dash 2B route. Let's hope Skye will find something better. Yeah, I noticed it earlier. Thanks man ! Glad to see more people helping with the wiki ! I don't like using j6B during pressure that much though. Problem is that while it's indeed pretty good to bait throws, it loses hardcore against any anti-air OS while tk236B is much safer because it blows you backward and leads to better rewards. With the frame data available specifying though that j6B is +11, it's definetely something that I'm gonna use more an add in my game. Gotta go to the lab and check out the best situations to use it I guess ! Gonna add it in the wiki anyway. So far, it seems quite accurate in comparison to what we found. If there is anything that is fishy though, we will just remove it and wait for a better framedata.

Basically, it's: (236A>214[A]>]A[) xN Works both midscreen and in the corner but there are some ways to deal with it midscreen like with guardshield or nicely-timed backdashes. Reason why it's a pseudo-infinite is because there is a gap between 214[A] and ]A[. However, ]A[ won't disappear once triggered even on hit and 214[A] is safe on block so you can block whatever the opponent might want to throw out. Even 2As will get counter hit because of that so that's a deadly frame trap. Only Merkava and Waldstein seem to have a guaranteed way to deal with it in the corner so far. Obviously though, because it requires a 236A or a 214[A] to trigger, that's only something you do during blood pressure. It's overall a really strong tool to use. Will win you matches against people who aren't really patient and allow you to go for whatever mixup you want against more experienced players. There is also an important mind game everytime you do 214[A]. If you go for 214, you can do dash>throw and tick throw them with that. So, everytime you use a 214X, the opponent has to guess whether it's A and you keep the pseudo-infinite going or B and you throw/throw bait them.

Like I mentionned before, a lot of combos there are either really character specific or just don't work at all. If you're referring to the in-birth wikia that is. Killey's list allow us to start from something that we are certain does work and can be easily expanded later on hence why what he did is extremely useful. Depends a lot of the character it's used on, the amount of hits you did in order to hitconfirm and whether you're midscreen or in the corner. Learn the basic j6B routes. Usually, with puddleless combos, you go for 2C>j6B combos or j[C]>delay j6B. Dash C after a j6B OTG should work on most of the cast and will usually be followed by 623A/B. It's really hard to say at this point what is optimized or not before we manage to make a list in order to classify what exactly is character specific or isn't. For jC or 6D jC, if you got a puddle around, always go straight for 5A>2C>236A route. Without a puddle, go rather for: jC>5A>2C>(7)j6B>jCBA>3B>2C>623A>66C That's a universal combo IIRC and the one you should go with puddleless. After a throw, you always have enough time to do 214[A]>walk backwards and put your fingers on B+C to react to a back tech. With the command grab, you don't have that much time so I prefer to go for 214[A]>backdash 236X is the easiest meaty to go with and it provides a puddle but it loses to delay tech way too easily and some characters can easily backdash out of it (Love you too Merkava. Love you too). Here's a list containing 612 videos of Carmines. On Nicovideo of course. Be careful though, SAT is interesting to watch because the way he plays Carmine is different than the others (and it works quite well) but he likes to YOLO it out a bit too hard IMO and doesn't seem the kind of guys who prefer solid strategies. Which is what you're usually looking for when studying matchups. That's why your best bets are actually to watch Notsu (ノーツ) and Nedji (ネヂ). Nothing surprising about Notsu. Nedji though isn't as strong as Notsu and SAT but he's extremely solid and doesn't take as much risks as the 2 others which is something quite interesting considering that Carmine is a huge risk/reward character. Just 22A as a starter you mean ? If you can link 2C after that and considering that 22A will always leave a puddle, you can go for 2C>236A. I'll check later to see the most I can get out of it midscreen considering that I mostly use it in the corner. Waaaah ! Thanks man ! That's awesome ! I'll add them right away ! Are you certain though that 2B is 7f ? Might be just me but the move doesn't really seem that fast to me. Also, if you don't mind, can you check if the whiff cancels 2A/5A from the C normals are + on block ? Anyway, a few random things: -Seems that Merkava can actually escape the pseudo-infinite simply by jumping and using flight midscreen or in the corner. It loses though against 236B. -I edited the wiki and filled the description of every moves as well as added the framedatas 2GB found. I'll probably work more on it tomorrow but if there is something that you disagree with, please don't hesitate voicing your opinion. Even if you feel like it might be silly, it could be something that I didn't think of.

You can't do any crossup with Carmine because of the crossup protection system. And depends of the combo. If you go for the optimized combos, chances are that you already used your jump cancel (you can only jump cancel once per combo) and even if you didn't, the hitstun decay would allow the opponent to tech in the air after j6B. Which is bad news because it can allow the opponent to tech forward or backward which end up with Carmine being unable to apply blood pressure on them. Front tech also allows to exit the corner. If you would like to have a puddle, it's better to go for 236A/j236B meaty as it will allow you to have a puddle on the ground no matter what while still allowing you to keep the blood pressure going. Nice ! Please read this thread in order to know how to make an account. Good luck though and if you have troubles with anything, don't hesitate asking here !

The problem that I have with 214C is that, like I mentionned, you can't hitconfirm out of a 22A/B outside 2C range. You need to input the 22C/236C/214C right away. If your opponent block a 22C, it's back to neutral so it's fine. 236C whiffing isn't that bad too simply because it does cover a lot of space and not everyone can punish you for that. With 214C though, if your opponent was blocking, you end up right before them and you're - on block. So you went from a situation where you were the one pressuring to a situation where you're the one being pressured. Which is way too risky in my opinion. However, if we are in a situation where you're certain your 22B will hit, better go for 214C right away considering you will corner carry from it which is the best choice possible. As for using CS against 22A/B on block, it's actually the only special that gives us a puddle right away which is useful for hitconfirms, combos and even during pressure so it's my favourite move to CS now. That's indeed the cross under combo used to switch sides. Reason why we only use it for that is because it doesn't provide a corner carry as good as the dash 2B >jABC route and, most of all, it got the dash C ender. Problem with the dash C ender is that, midscreen, it gets easily beaten by delay techs. Whether you go for 236A meaty or 214[A] (B+C) meaty, delay back tech can beat it because based on how far your opponent was when doing dash C, 214[A]>B+C>]A[ can completely whiffs. It's a rather annoying situation that happened to me countless times and if we consider how we want our opponent to be unable to escape Carmine's vortex, we don't want to see that happen. And that's pretty much the reason why, midscreen, there is only one combo ender that will always result in a guaranteed oki: 3B>2C Of course, if you're still having troubles with Carmine's combo, it's better to start with easier combo and learn little by little. Here's an easy one that works with ANY starter for beginners who struggle with his combos. It's universal and works both midscreen and in the corner. It can be useful for people who already know all his combos but think they will most likely drop a combo because the starter wasn't great in the middle of a match: hitconfirm(can be 5A>5B or whatever)>2C>3B>small delay jABC>3B>2C Hope it will help some beginners. Bad Peace Forest is one of my favourite color too haha. I usually go with Emerald Island because it looks like he's throwing out acid. As for AA 236B combos, it depends a lot of how high and how far your opponent in the air is. If you hit with the tippity tip of the hitbox, you can't combo into anything. Midscreen, going for the dash 2B>jABC route is usually the best choice because it works on everyone. Other combos I found where just way too situationnal or character specifc. 2B>2C doesn't work on everyone. Same with 2B>6B>2C, j[C]>jB>2C and j[C]>j6B. All of them also depends of the height. So yeah, you're better off sticking with 2B>jABC unless someone else find a better universal combo. @Tomo The most used veil off combo ender by Notsu is: After a 236A or 66C if the bounce limit wasn't reached: 22C>Veil off>236C>623C Most used veil off + CS combo ender is: 236C>CS>Veil off>41236D P.S: Thanks Tigre and Worldjem for taking care of the wiki. Once I'll have more free time IRL, I'll definetely help you guys.