mixedmethods

Shout-outs to the group being active and not just two of us wondering if anyone else wanted to join.

To make it easier for Shadow Labrys players to talk tech, discuss MUs, and complain about how we're outnumbered and no one loves us, there's now a Skype group! Please post your Skype name here or add haotshy61289 on Skype to join.

Well, Minazuki is Aigis's worst MU (Anne pretty much summed up why). Teleport: you can't reliably 2B or go air-to-air to challenge it, so other than "block and accept that he's +4," your choices are a delayed DP (it takes practise to get the timing down) or 2C... I've heard rumours that Anne has a 2C FC combo that's a OHKO against Minazuki. If you react early enough to the teleport, you can also try to dash or roll to move out of range of the actual attack. Make sure you're able to ID skill boost teleport, as Minazuki retains air actions after that one (C and D versions he's committed to the attack). 2D and 5D have a lot of recovery; if you're hit during start-up, you lose a card. So they're not moves you want to mash on when he's in 5A range (... when isn't he in 5A range). When dealing with his pressure, try to instant block the first hit of his sweep. On IB, his sweep becomes unsafe, so you can hop + C to land a CH j.C. (Be very careful to let go of 2 after the hop or you'll do j.2C.) Otherwise, you generally have to hold a lot of Minazuki's shit, as trying to poke out isn't going to work if the Minazuki is even halfway competent (out of range), 5A isn't going to work (again, range), and strings as simple as 4A4A > 5C crush Fuzzy Jump. And then he can command throw you. If you're in Awakening and you catch him hitting a button, you have Heavenly Spear; SB is approximately 5f start-up, so as long as he's committed to something, it's a FC and a chance at getting out of the corner. In Orgia, Orgia backdash isn't disabled on wake-up; if you have the gauge, don't be afraid to use it to get out of his pressure... just make sure you can actually make something whiff and/or don't backdash into a persona move.

Since the topic creator went MIA and this thread has ballooned, please go to the new Beginner-Intermediate Player List & Match Finder Thread. Requesting that a mod close this thread.

You told one of my friends to die 48 hours ago. I appreciate that you're trying to start over but I want nothing to do with you, the group wants nothing to do with you, and you have yet to earn anyone's trust. I wish you well but your endeavors are your own. Please, seek matches elsewhere.

Setting up multiple rooms doesn't actually help anything. Unless it's a coordinated effort, all it does is add more confusion.

You want to beat an OS that's designed to deal with throw mix-ups with a throw? Did you actually watch the video Anne and bace made? They cover how to deal with Fuzzy Jump, but it's not "throw." I think there's a lot of confusion regarding the use and implications of OSes, despite Anne and Bace doing a damn fine job of explaining how the layers of the metagame work. In any event, choosing to option select does carry risk. If the opponent is aware of the OS and knows how to beat it, bait it, and check for it, then there's a very good chance that attempting to OS will get you CH'd and afraid to OS, meaning the attacker can force respect. Additionally, knowing the inputs (and practising them) for Fuzzy Jump does not mean "I should OS EVERYTHING." Stronger characters have safe ways to beat the OS and continue their pressure, and some things can't be OS'd at all -- Aigis's Orgia mix-up and Minazuki's pressure come to mind. Learning Fuzzy Jump and other OSes is good, and even if you aren't ready to implement them in a match, practising becoming familiar with how they work, the timing, etc., in training mode is beneficial, as is being aware of their existence. The existence of these OSes shapes the metagame and changes how the game is played, a fact that's crucial when you watch high-level footage and evaluate decision-making. But OSes are not a 100% failsafe way to up your defence, nor are they something that exist in isolation. Again, as Anne and bace said: Fuzzy Jump was developed to deal with a situation (throw mix-ups, including high/low/throw) that commonly occurs in play. As Fuzzy Jump became common knowledge and routinely used, the next level of problem-solving occurred: How do I safely pressure my opponent without losing to Fuzzy Jump? And it turns out that the stronger characters can absolutely shut down this OS, because they have ways to pressure opponents that pose low or no risk to them, maintain their momentum, and that don't lose to Fuzzy Jump -- some methods will even punish a defender attempting Fuzzy Jump! Once the defender is scared to option-select, the situation is much more tense, as if you OS and get baited, you're going to suffer, and if you're freaked out and overrespect, you may find yourself being thrown (or worse). Things that can be OS'd may not be when the defender has been shown the risk for option-selecting, which adds layers to the interactions between attacker and defender. Just how respectful is the defender going to be? How much risk is the attacker willing to take, or does the attacker still retain strong mix-up without taking risks? While considering all this, did the defender just eat a run-up grab? Look at the video. See what happens when you try to Fuzzy Jump Minazuki's 4A>4A>5C. Oops. Look at all the ways Narukami can stop this OS and how threatening certain options are versus others. That is the game. It's not "hey, Fuzzy DP is an awesome trick" -- Fuzzy DP can actually get you killed from full life; rather, it's whether the attacker and/or defender are aware of OSes and the decisions they make based on that knowledge.

I would guess it relates to using 5C after 2C/1HSM has been applied. It's likely a visual cue to make it easier for players (and opponents) to see the buff, rather than by looking at Liz's meter, similar to how "JUST!" and "SHOCKED" now appear on screen to show just-frame release and ailments, respectively. Maybe something like an EX silhouette?

So it doesn't get buried in the news thread: here's an hour of AnneIFrank and bace demonstrating the OSes, how they shape the meta-game and tier lists, ways OSes can be beaten, and the pros and cons of each. It serves as a sequel to LK's tutorial and highlights the layers involved in high-level play as well as risk-reward.

Fortune was traveling on Friday, Bacon was on a different work schedule, and a lot of us were burnt from earlier-in-the-week festivities (read: PATCH NOTES). Then I spent yesterday with some kind of stomach flu! \o/ Plus, KiT. I wouldn't sweat it. Shoutouts to our latest HERE COMES A NEW CHALLENGER. It'd be awesome if you posted your timezone in this thread and said hello! I've had a few lurkers message me on PSN, which is awesome, but please don't be afraid to leave a note here as well. :D

Blah blah blah meet-up tonight as per blah blah blah moving time to 9:30PM EST because life. Anyone new and interested, please add me on PSN so I can invite you.

Well, since PSN killed our plans yesterday, I'll host a room tonight at the "no later than 9PM EST" standard so that we can have our revenge.

The Aigis main says "Only 4.2k? For 75 meter? Aren't you fighting?"

YOU'RE NOT RANKING DOWN ON ME, JACKASS. THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE. ETA: Yeah, it's back for some people. Not me, though. Yay!

Or not. PSN is down, so... uh... uh... WELL I GUESS WE'LL JUST HAVE TO BE WITH EACH OTHER IN SPIRIT.

I posted a bunch of notes in the Yukari-Shab MU thread, so here's that discussion. Key points: Expect 2C at round start; it takes a card and forces you to block. Yukari's DP beats "unblockable" grab oki. Adjust set-ups as necessary. Magarula ends ~42f sooner due to Asterius; even Silence > Magarula activate won't work (ailment wears off too quickly to restore active frames). If Titano is activated at neutral: C and D Magarula can whiff during Titano; SB Magarula will almost always work, though the mix-up options are limited (you lose a card but Asterius returns in time to block with you) and it's free meter with IB. Ailment duration is ~2 seconds if not removed by hitting Yukari. j.B and j.2B will Fatal non-EX Feather Flip. Challenge if you can. Yukari's airthrow deals 1.8k. Don't jump mindlessly and/or be prepared to tech. Be careful when targeting her persona; backward hitboxes can be a threat. 5A is a standing low. Downback and 2B any IAD j.As. Make sure you know her AoA animation. MU feels somewhat in Shab's favour, likely due to Yukari's comeback potential being hampered by Asterius. Neither Shab nor Yukari has much health, so once one side gets going, it's rough. Titanomachia still allows you to easily run a round back. Yukari's combos tend to end in ailment + restand, but with 5A hitting low, be sure to block appropriately. Match footage (netplay) of BananaKen vs. Shinsyn: Early Concept Matches Netplay Casuals (includes BK Shab vs. Shinsyn Yukari along with other opponents)

Yeah, two weeks ago was just a strange case of everyone being committed to something. Last week was great and we'll be meeting tonight, as per. As for tonight, I'm going to push the start time to "no later than 9:30PM EST" because of life happening. If some of you end up starting a room before I'm on, it's fine; just remember that I have to run the actual meet-up room because I have the masterlist of newbie PSN IDs, so just kindly move over when I arrive and spam invites. :P Your dictator has spoken. Also: I did a few tutorials last time, so anyone who wasn't there last week or anyone who was there but wants a refresher -- let me know if you want recap notes. I know I did a long-ass explanation on Titanomachia, but I don't want to blow up DL inboxes without permission.

Bloo, you were the skill cap in the Beginner's tournament, so you're not really in the beginner-intermediate range of the training group, and this really isn't a match-finder thread. I'm assuming you're okay with people adding you if they're looking for Narukami experience? In which case, thank you. Hit and Bloo: guys, whether you're dickwagging in jest or for srs, take it somewhere else, please. Like DMs or Twitter. This isn't the place.

New 5C tech from BananaKen.

It might be possible to use that extra hitstop if you're blocking corner pressure, at least if the Mitsuru uses the double Droit string. You'd have to react. Honestly, dealing with Mitsuru in the corner is hell some days -- to quote LK, she can absolutely pick apart your defence. As an aside, while we're talking Droit, EX Asterius attacks are a godsend (against everything, but particularly Droit). You'll get the extra hitstop, but even better, if the Mitsuru is using EX Droit and has 50 meter, the Droit will be converted into a Guard Cancel due to the charge motion and 6AB. This leads to stupid situations: EX lasers to control space + Mits releasing EX Droit to get in quickly = Guard Cancel Assault on a hit from the beam, then the pillar hits. (If Mits doesn't have 50 meter, then she just gets hit, same as with any other EX Asterius attack vs. just about everything she does.) It's a gimmick and it's not something that can reliably be forced -- since Mitsuru's need for meter went up this game, EX Droit for approach is giving up 25 meter and entering meter cooldown -- but it exists. On an unrelated note, when dealing with Bufudyne, to avoid a reset, you must wait for her to sweep you (breaking the freeze), then delay your tech slightly until you can ground tech, not air tech. Air tech forward is goodbye to your health bar.

We aren't lacking Shabrys players, actually, but we are lacking slots. Thanks for the offer!

Well, that's kind of the problem with invoking a clash. I just used Bufudyne as an example of a move that beats an attempted 2B, but it doesn't have to be Bufudyne. If you go for Challenge Authority D and Mitsuru doesn't cancel off the clash and/or reacts to the superfreeeze (OMCs, cancels off Asterius, whatever), she can use the time from the super to charge Droit for a CH starter. If she just blocks rather than cancel after the clash and you cancel into super, you're -4 with no OMC to save yourself, down 50 meter, and Mitsuru has a free Droit into damage. Depending on her meter and who has Burst, that could be game. It's a messy clash that involves a huge amount of risk for making the wrong guess, which is what you're going to have to do at the cancel window since there's no one "best" option that allows you to OS the clash. (Unless you know what the opponent is going to do in response to the clash, which would make you either a god of yomi or require testing the opponent to see how they react to the clash.) I'm not saying the clash isn't interesting, just ... not stable, I suppose. There's no one option you can rely on in a clash scenario, as far as I know.

Just hit D and jump to deal with Droit. Giving Mitsuru a clash gives her a chance to Fatal or CH you, or, hell, just super and shave off a good chunk of your health bar, since 2B is slow enough for her to land a CH Bufudyne C (20f vs. 18f start-up... yeah). Shab's 5B is faster than her 5B but not faster than her 5A and 2A. Et cetera. Trying to force a clash is a huge, unnecessary gamble with 8k health and Mitsuru's damage.

Hope things aren't too serious, heavy. Stay well. And QSpec, glad to hear it! I'd love to play you again. We were all a bit confused by the auto-pass, actually. But, yeah, you can't disable it until everyone in the lobby is at neutral; if someone is still watching a match, you can't mess with auto-pass. Which is why I end up telling people to hold that ish so I can send invites sometimes.

Room tonight, but I'm bumping the time back to 9:15 EST because life happened.