mixedmethods

Use this thread to discuss the Ken Amada & Koromaru matchup.This post will be updated as members contribute. Round Start:... Neutral:... Offense:... Defense:... Punishes: On Block: ...On Reaction:... Character & Shadow-Type Specific Notes: Combos: ...Mixups:...Shadow-Type:...

Use this thread to discuss the Sho matchup.This post will be updated as members contribute. Round Start:... Neutral:... Offense:... Defense:... Punishes: On Block: ...On Reaction:... Character Specific Notes: Combos: ...Mixups:...

Use this thread to discuss the Minazuki matchup.This post will be updated as members contribute. Round Start: ... Neutral: ... Offense: ... Defense: ... Punishes: On Block: ...On Reaction: ... Character Specific Notes: Combos: ...Mixups: ...

We don't, unfortunately, though I'm working on a sort of FAQ/manual that links to key sources, covers general knowledge, etc. -- seriously, everyone go watch Omex's tutorials. And you're welcome to add me on Skype, if you'd like; I can't chat on Skype while I play very well but it's something.

No, we can activate persona moves on block. I catch a lot of people sleeping with 2C while blocking.

His 5A recovers a hell of a lot faster than your 5B. As do his 2A, 5B, 2B... his j.A and j.B beat yours... yes, you can whiff punish him for standing there hitting 5A, but no good Minazuki is going to do that. That hitbox is huge and leads into massive damage, so you're going to be dancing around it. Hitting Koro gives him all of his cancel options, so remember that he retains his jump cancels on his two-hit B moves if he hits Koromaru, giving him safe ways to disable Koro-spam. When was it decided that Minazuki has no mix-up? Because he absolutely has mix-up -- in fact, he has insanely good mix-up. First, he can vary the tempo by jump-canceling his B moves after one hit, and teleport, command throw, and tick throw can all catch you off guard for anticipating one over the other. His high-low game is limited (so is ours) but he excels at frame traps (so do we). If he's doing a blockstring, you have to hold that, even if it seems endless, and once he's pressuring you, one bad guess is going to hurt. If he has 50 meter, he can do SB knives + SB teleport to make himself unpunishable, or go for a grab + OMC, or, once he gets a hit, end the combo with Purgatory for huge damage. Guard Cancel Assault is your friend. Don't autopilot your defence or you'll pay for it. If he's the one auto-piloting, then, yes, you can call out teleport, but he really has no reason to be afraid of you while you're defending. You're not poking out. His frame traps are nasty.

Not the rooms, no. The tournament is, but that's different from the practise lobbies.

How are you guys handling the Adachi MU? I'm finding it tricky, so I'm interested in hearing how others are approaching it.

I'm in.

Ken is annoying but two combos will kill him. Don't get impatient. I play a little Ken and helped compile his info, so this may help. Collapsed: Huge wall of text.: First: KOROMARU IS ALWAYS A MID STRIKE. It doesn't matter what it looks like; the dog is a mid. Block based on Ken, not the dog. He has four overheads: AoA, j.A (hits three times, all hits are overheads), j.B, and j.2B. AoA is 32f start-up and has an incredibly telegraphed animation; it's also Fatal Recovery. You shouldn't be getting hit by this. He goes airborne for his AoA, so in pressure, AoA > OMC is possible if he can't crack you open. His only lows are his sweep and 2A, which can't be canceled into itself (nor can he do 2A > 5A or 5A > 2A). Generally, as long as he times the dog right, his pressure is a true blockstring, but the "skeleton" you're looking for is 2A/5A > 2B(1) > 5B -- it's punishable only if the dog isn't out, but if you see a Ken using this frame, don't mash. His 5AA is -10 on block, so you can disrespect that; his 5AAA is +1 or -17 depending on whether Koro is on play. If he's doing any of this without Koro, he's begging to be killed. 5B can be swept under if he's poking mindlessly. In Orgia, you can backdash on wakeup to get out of his set-ups, primarily meaty 214C oki. You can also use Orgia backdash to avoid his Awakening super if he mashes it on wakeup; it's 7f start up, so you can actually bait it and beat it. Don't hang out at superjump height -- you risk getting DP'd with a supercancel into Fire Breath. He lacks a good anti-air in exchange for great jump normals. If you see him whiff 5B, he's trying to bait a jump-in -- on whiff, the move has a second hit. 2B is useless as a reactive anti-air because the first hit is a mid and airblockable; our j.B should stuff it before he gets his head invuln frames or even the first hit out. It can tag you out of jump start up if you're close, so backdash and punish if he likes to hit buttons. His j.B is big and stupid but if you can deal with Shab's j.B, then you can deal with his. His j.A is his best option against jump-ins, as it's fast, has a big forward hitbox, hits three times, and lets him maintain his spacing. In Orgia, tri-jump or use j.AB. He doesn't have the life to hit buttons during Orgia (no one should be hitting buttons during Orgia...), so if you catch him once, you should be taking off 4k, which is roughly half his health. (8.5k.) 5D and the rest of the D series don't save you from blocking depending on the set-up and/or how smart the Ken is. If the dog takes the hit, Ken can jump the counter, poke it, or block it. If Ken triggers the counter, the dog can rush in. Strangely, j.2D actually hits (and bodies) Koromaru's 2C (which low profiles a lot of things) at certain spacings. If the Ken is any good, he won't commit to an attack himself while Koro takes care of the shield (and vice-versa), but if he's bad, then he or the dog will trigger the counter and both of them will eat the attack. Ken's moves have too much recovery. 2B will hit Koromaru out of anything he's doing, which leaves Ken vulnerable if he's hit a button. You can also style with Vulcan Cannon SB if the dog and the kid are separated. j.C is still Jesus. Ken's j.A can stuff it, but only if you're reckless. As for his jumps, low-hitting j.A and j.B beat his j.A, j.B, and j.2B; his j.B is slow enough to lose to our j.C. If he's going air to ground, you can beat him air-to-air with j.A or j.B; if you're the one going air to ground, j.B will hit him and the dog. The biggest nuisance is Charge Thrust (the two-hit move where he sends out his spear), as it Fatals and can hit airborne opponents. If you see him go for Charge Thrust raw, it's one of two things: (1) the player doesn't know what they're doing; or (2) you hit a button and he's trying to punish you. You can generally jump it on reaction; if he's using it without a hit confirm from 5B, he's asking for you to put him out of his misery. The A version is death (for him) on block; the B version is slower but harder to punish with our range issues; SB is safe. If he gatlings into the follow-up persona attack on block, you have a free 5A > jc to take one of his cards. If he uses Mediarama without sweeping you, you can 2B or, you know, IAD in and j.B him. The recovery is awful. It's not going to heal him much, but it does heal the dog. He has range, but he needs the dog to cover his recovery -- this isn't a Narukami 5B issue. If he's pressuring you, just block low unless you see him jump or go for AoA. He has a throw but it has unique properties; I detailed it on his wiki page. Otherwise, just block if he's applying pressure. He wants you to hit buttons so he can punish you. Sooner or later, he has to reset pressure. The dog does have recovery -- the closer the dog is to you, the more plus Koro is on block. If he does 214C/D (flying Koro ball) to cover his approach, 2B stuffs that, as he has to wait for the dog to recover. Also, he has no dash cancels, so everything Ken does has to be covered by the dog or gatlinged into (relative) safety. If he's just hitting buttons, punish him. You can close gaps quickly, so don't let him think whiffing 5B is safe. Fire Breath C can be rolled; D and SB are multi-hit. That move starts from Koro's position, not his, so unless the dog is on top of you, you're going to see the C variant. If he lands DP, that's his best super-cancel; Thunder Reign is Fatal Recovery and the timing on the cancel means you usually tech out of the super (which is Fatal Recovery); Ultimate Cross/Awakening super is also finicky. VR covered 214C oki and what it loses to, which you can find in the Oki/Mix-ups/Gimmicks thread in Ken's forum. If you're pressuring him, make sure the dog is offscreen or with Ken; if Koro isn't with Ken, Ken can take a hit to mash C and the dog will hit you from behind, resetting the situation in his favour. Koro is invuln when he's being removed (i.e., when Ken is holding D). Yes, the dog is annoying but he's not Asterius. Ken has bad options on defence, so if he has meter, watch out for his Guard Cancel -- it's big and knocks down if he counter hits with it. He may try Thunder Reign or Ultimate Cross as reversals, but those are high-risk options, particularly the former. I don't see why this MU should be particularly bad. Yes, he has great jumps and very good pressure. We also have great jumps, as well as fantastic mobility and bullets. His left-right is very obnoxious (but fun to do) and the dog is a pain, but two Orgia combos can kill him, or, hell, if you see him commit to something with enough recovery, Goddess Shield. I killed a Ken with Spear after he whiffed a 2A and he died outside Awakening. It's a new MU, possibly annoying, but it's not Narukami or Minazuki. I forgot to mention this: j.2B helps kill the dog.

You can DP on reaction or meet him air-to-air with j.A. I prefer the latter, since it's safer. Just be wary of SB Teleport: he retains air actions, so if you hear the SB sound, stay cautious; his j.A is big and his j.B is nasty. Watch out for Teleport > Wings of Purgatory if he has meter and wants you the hell away from him. It'll body Koromaru and, well, Ken. And for the love of Katana Jesus, don't trip his counter move with Koromaru. Just wait for the punish window (it's small but it does exist). If you have Koro near him, you can tag him with Koromaru when he leaves his catch frames or even try for a Fire Breath punish (need to test). He probably won't use it unless you've committed Koro to 236C/D to cover your approach, in which case you can try to DP out before the counter (haven't had much luck with this in testing) or try to get Ultimate Cross to invuln through the unblockable.

ONE OF US.

I agree. I also don't think "anti-zoning" is an actual playstyle or clarifies much. So I'm going to remove that edit. I think I get the spirit of what the editor was trying to convey but Ken's anti-zoning options belong in a strategy discussion. Thanks to shtkn for our lovely images. (I tried... the modly ones are much better.) I'm finishing the write-up on all his moves right now and I'll keep an eye out for anything that needs tweaking. (Sorry for delays. I became ill and I'll probably be ill for another few months. )

Just don't fall asleep in front of the TV like someone we know.

I got the Japanese version for Ken. I was hype for him the moment I saw his range. :D Shabrys became so much fun that she went from "sub I shitlord with" to "no character should be this awesome, MU issues be damned." Public Executions for all!

Wow, I come to make a big announcement post to fulfill my pseudo-mod duties and you people are -- I'm tearing up -- self-organising. 1. To anyone I invited last night, my apologies for not realising you were playing the NA release and not able to join; those of us on the JPN version will all have converted to the NA release by the end of today. (I know some of us are picking up phys copies, and one is stuck with the download error.) 2. Anyone I see online tonight is getting kidnapped invited so we can all talk about SHINY THINGS. 3. I was already planning to host a Wednesday meet-up; time is 7PM EST. (Go to bed, Emperor.) In fact, for the newer members, here's the schedule: Monday -- starts no later than 9PM EST. Friday -- starts no later than 9PM EST. Saturday -- there's almost always a meet-up, but rather than a fixed time, it starts when (1) I get online and round people up or (2) two people are online, start a room, and then it balloons. Fortune, Bacon and I have been playing each other just about daily for the past month. (And nilcam was busy. Sadness.) If you see a few of us online and/or I friended you and you see me, you're always welcome to ask if there's a room going. Sometimes three or four of us will be online but not together, so if you don't get a random invite the moment you log on, feel free to send a message so I know that people want to meet. Other scheduling highlights: this Friday meet-up, I am covering the Fuzzy Jump OS and we are practising it, along with other defensive options. I know we went over the "old" throw OS back in P4A but several people are interested in drilling these OSes and stepping up defence, so we're going to have a brief refresher on the OSes and how they're defeated, risk-reward, etc. A note to new people about music: I have a disabling illness (blah blah blah my body is strip-mining my nerves... no1currs about the details, including me) and am prone to migraines due to noise sensitivity. Because of how my headset works, I leave music on at low levels for fights (so that I can cover the sound of everyone talking while I'm playing). However, two tracks are banned under the idea that deliberately trying to give someone a migraine is uncool: Spirited Girl and the Junes Theme. (Not the Hero From Junes but the commercial-sounding jingle.) If you want to use those tracks, just let me know so I can adjust my headset; otherwise, Random is probably not your friend. Picking either track because I'm your opponent is ... not going to win you any points but it may get you banned. If you absolutely want to fight to those songs, just let me know ahead of time so I can set my music to zero, please. A little courtesy goes a long way! And a note about stages: while some of us have fairly good connexions and will use some of the new stages, please pick either the Music Room or the school at night (P4A version, Mitsuru's stage) for our collective sanity. Spectator lag is a thing, so just because it hasn't been a problem before doesn't mean it won't be a problem during a match, and I, for one, become quite annoyed when a match turns laggy. Let intros fully load. I know it's dull to listen to the opening quotes repeatedly ("I won't lose," "Let's go, no holds barred," etc.) but it's vital. No one will kick you for shaky Internet -- heavy is one of my favourite opponents despite geography making some lag a given -- but they will if you flaunt stage choice and loading requirements because "we have a good connexion." (Those words are just begging for a lag spike.) I don't want to be a dictator and I know everyone just wants to play, but if you want to build good habits, then choosing appropriate stages and letting intros load is vital.

Let me know if you want a huge info dump on Ken. :D

Actually, kupo's planning to main her, but we all need Mits experience, so I'll be sure to shoot you an invite.

I find it ironic our Mitsuru is going to Europe. C'est magnifique!

Colpevole came to one of our meet-ups, so he's allowed to play too! I doubt I'll enter anytime soon but I can help with commentary if you need voices. I try to teach MUs and OSes and I know the strengths and weaknesses of our members, so, yeah, if you want someone to help flesh out "why is he doing that/was that a botched input/what was he attempting," I'd be happy to assist.

Yeah, I noticed that after persona-breaking one during a match. It is what it is. Personally, I don't make persona-break my goal so much as taking cards to force Margarets to attempt a gold burst (bait it, block it) or to play more conservatively.

That's why (in Persona, at least) I set it so I'm player two. I know the music and stage I'm facing. Pet peeve: people who skip loading screens and win because the lag is unbearable (their character is unpunishable in lag) ... and then requests five rematches. Didn't the first three declines give you a hint? Finally had to message the player to tell him to stop. Also, if you yank me out if training mode and then cancel the match, I hate you.

Apparently, part of the update includes changing "X win/lose" to "Margaret," at least if you're playing Ken.

To all the wonderful new people: I believe I've added you all. I ... don't really mod this stuff, but since I was the one who first started organizing the rooms, I try to make sure I have everyone friended so I can get the invites out. We're pretty laid back -- if we see you online and there's a room going, don't be surprised if you're invited; you absolutely don't have to reply or attend -- we just shoot out invites as a habit at this point. I know some of you aren't playing Ultimax yet and that's fine! I know Fortune and I are always happy to play sets and come back to Arena to get bodied because "OMG why is my character totally different," so send us a message if you'd like to play. :D We're all miced, so if you have a mic, that helps, as we're a pretty amiable group ... a little nutty, but we like to play, share tech, and talk about inanities all at once. The next P4 Arena meet-up is this Friday at 9PM EST and it generally runs until at least 1AM EST. If you'd like to come, please give a heads-up in this thread so we can expect you! As an aside, all of us are EST or CST, but we've all dealt with lag thanks to a certain someone (cough, Fortune, cough). It happens and no one is going to kick you for having a bad connexion (unless the game desyncs ... then we kick you and reinvite you).

I think I understand this one, so I'll give it a shot: the one OS that works equally well for everyone is the Fuzzy Jump OS. After a knockdown, when in a (non-command) throw situation, you tech and use 1-7CD-1, or "tech, downback, upback + throw, return to downback." This causes the following outcomes based on your opponent's pressure: 1. You block low, then stand to tech a throw. 2. You block low, then air throw them out of a jump or air skill (Narukami Raging Lion, for example). 3. You block low, block high, then tech a throw. 4. You block low for the entire sequence. Notice that except for the second example, you don't jump. Outcomes 2 and 3 are determined by your timing on the "jump + CD." Because of blockstun, you shouldn't actually jump if you time this OS correctly; the blockstun prevents you from jumping, which is why you standblock and throw tech -- that upback is converted into standblock. If Narukami does Raging Lion, air throw becomes an option based on timing; either way, you get out of his pressure. The "old" OS was simply to hit upback + throw after crouchblocking when you knew throw was an option. The problem is that only hitting upback + throw meant you could be hit low, which is why you need to return to downback. If your opponent jumps back after a normal to see if you're using this OS, you will be in counter hit state due to the whiffed throw. (Which was another way to check for the old version of this OS. You can see Yume do it in the Evo 2013 matches -- he'll do 5A > 2A stagger pressure, jump back, then resume offence.) LordKnight has a blog post containing the strings you want to try defending against. The DP + throw OS works because of blockstun as well as button priority running A > B > C > D. You piano BD + CD and get either DP or throw. (You can't mash BDC.) This is much more character dependent, as you need a good DP -- Yosuke, Mitsuru, and Narukami can make use of this, because their DPs blow up pressure; Liz's DP is a techable grab, so this OS is a weak option for her. You have six frames of throw protection after exiting blockstun (eight frames on IB), so you either get your DP out (blowing up pressure and a potential throw) or you tech the throw. There's probably further wonkiness for Shabrys and Ken due to their D buttons controlling their puppets (which is why B+D or C+D can affect their puppets if said puppets aren't already committed to an action or the buttons aren't hit simultaneously). If you hold downback and do BD + CD, then you have these outcomes: 1. If you see your DP, then you DP'd out of their pressure because it's, well, DP-able. 2. If your opponent does a blockstring, you block; blockstun prevents any of your commands from coming out. 3. If your opponent goes for a tick throw off of 5A or 2A, you tech the throw (the DP is skipped). You need a good DP for this to work. This lets you DP out of things like Narukami 5A > Raging Lion A, as well as throw tech and block. But it's still a DP, so watch out for blue health. The fuzzy DP OS makes your DP a bit harder to bait and gives you the option of covering it with throw tech rather than just mashing DP while under pressure and hoping it works. For the practise examples LK provided, such as the sweep > 5A > Lion A and sweep > 5A > throw chains, you need to tech after the sweep and make sure you hold downback while inputting the OS; if you don't, you won't block the 5A. You can still get baited using this one, because OS or not, if your opponent knows part of their pressure isn't DP safe and thinks you'll mash DP rather than block, all they have to do is block/backdash/jumpback (depending on the DP) and your DP will majestically fail. It does give you another option to blow up pressure, though, particularly (depending on the character) in the corner. Yosuke's DP is the best example here. Knowing your opponent's options helps; if they have to dash or microdash, it's obviously more useful in those situations than, say, against characters who can pressure you outside your DP range. Hop + normal is useful against characters with command throws, because hops beat those cleanly and allow you to hit characters going for a command throw while they're in recovery. Downback + AC (hop) + (normal depending on your character for a counter hit). Again, you have to piano the buttons if you want to use this against normal throws, because ACD = Burst. Same story with the roll OS. ... I hope this is helpful and, more importantly, accurate. >.>