mixedmethods

I just combed through the thread and I believe I have now sent friend requests to everyone who left their PSN name and wanted to join. The request should read "From DL's P4AU beginners thread." or something similar. I know I've sent messages to people who've asked to join asking if they'd like to meet so I can answer any questions, discuss specific MUs, whatever, and my PSN is right next to my name, so if you see me on, you're always welcome to send me a message and ask me to meet. I am miced because it's the easiest way for me to communicate (no USB keyboard, no computer near my PS3: sadness) but I can also meet you in a room and voice chat on Skype. Most of the discussion in rooms is done via mic, particularly "hey this person just got here, everyone please pass so they can get a game," so being able to hear us is helpful. We do things like discuss MUs ("how to blow up my character"), give feedback when asked, mention "you need to respect this/this isn't real" during matches, demonstrate things in training, and even review replays -- with Aigis and Shabrys, sometimes I'm asked "okay, what happened," or I may ask Fortune about Margaret, etc. And sometimes AnneIFrank comes by to remind us to block and teach us neat shit, and one time, a wild Colpevole appeared! Honestly, the way the meet-ups (which happen... all the time, not just Fridays) work is based on interest. If you come once and we never hear from you again, that sucks if you were awesome. Fridays are really crowded, so I may do a special format for this upcoming Friday that focuses on easing in newer members. In any event, it's not just Friday -- Saturday and Sunday generally involve a good portion of us getting back together. Mondays used to be a regular meet-up day, but now it's pretty much "whenever enough of us are online and feel like playing." (Breaks are good!) Interest isn't the only factour. Your connexion speed isn't going to get you kicked, but if you lag and skip intros even after being told not to skip them, I will ... move from mildly gruntled to full disgruntled. If you're pure netplay, none of us can beat the bad habits out of you unless you actually want to learn and are willing to accept that you're going to have to actively suppress going for panic options, so please don't think these lobbies can turn you into a better player in just four easy payments. Those of us who combined forces back in the dying days of Arena span varying skill levels but all of us want to develop good habits, implement strategies and OSes used in high-level play, develop neutral game, etc. We are not driven by win-lose -- we do Narukami-Narukami mirrors for the lulz, so, you know, there's a certain amount of "let's blow off steam" that happens. Those of us who form the "OG" set of beginners are all people who try to both give to the lobbies and take away knowledge, new combos, things to practise, etc., from them. The rooms are set to Winner Out because the point isn't for someone to run through the room and feel awesome over "I'm such a netplay boss." So hopefully this clarifies some of what the lobbies are about and what we do -- inquisitive players are the best players. We don't care if you lose! We don't give any fucks about colour, either. (I purposely keep myself at Light Blue.) It's the person who asks "What did I get hit by?" or "I keep getting hit by that reversal. What do I need to change to bait or make it a non-option?" that's got the right mindset. Hell, tell us what your goal is for the night (anti-airing consistently, landing AA follow-ups, not mashing DP, whatever) and we'll cheer you on. It's that kind of party. Yeah, there's no (feasible) way I can teach you how to block Titano in a lobby, since Training means I can demo it without the cooldown + match timer.

You're the best Secretary-Treasurer I've ever had! Maybe we should replace the VP... hmm....

We've been overcrowded the past three weeks, probably longer. I do my best to coordinate invites based on slots and who's online, but generally my PSN inbox blows up on Friday nights and I can't respond to messages -- typing on a fight stick while also making sure matches are on is a PITA. At least my headset works now. But, yeah, I'm trying to keep the room going, answer questions, and deal with messages regarding "I didn't leave, connexion dropped," etc., then sending invites between matches ... honestly, it's just space issues. Unfortunately, I'm not an omniscient being, so nothing's perfect. The meet-ups aren't only on Fridays. It helps to add me on PSN because (1) I need to be able to invite you (there are multiple posts from people I've sent friend requests asking about joining the meet-ups: guys, I sent you requests clarifying that I'm from DL; if you don't add me back, I really can't help); (2) we meet at other times. The eight-man rooms are ... not anyone's preference; 4-6 people is a lot more fun. That's often how we end up meeting future regulars -- here, in lobbies, or a few of us play someone from the thread and come back with glowing reviews, etc. I was sick when a few fellow newbies first played Garden, for example. It has nothing to do with kissing my ass. I run the rooms because I'm the one who has friended or attempted to friend every person who has posted in this thread expressing an interest in joining.

Feel free to add me on PSN. My Shabrys would love some more Rise experience. Execution is... ugh, not my strongest suit, but the beginner forums here have all kinds of tips on practising even the most basic drills that I've made into my own "workout plan." When I first started FGs, all the way back in week two, I was P2 when I'd play matches against my trainer and I subsequently couldn't remember how things worked when I found myself on P1 side. "236 so 214 for P2... WAIT I'M ACTUALLY P1, SO STOP REVERSING... carry the four... remainder of five...." ETA: Yeah, the giant Friday meet-up is still on ... I'm sure some people will have American Thanksgiving and Black Friday plans, but I don't! \o/

5C and 2C add blockstun, but they're not what the defender is going to look at: the persona has no high-low-throw, so in that situation, the opponent is going to be looking at Marie. After that, it's just a matter of knowing the probable options and recognising them. If you don't have 50 meter, bag special > OMC after first hit > second overhead isn't possible, so we can rule that option out. If you're in 5A and 2A range, downback. I could keep going, but long story short, your AoA is not nearly as invisible as you'd like to think, as for 29f after the 5C or 2C, you're in AoA start-up and animation, removing the actual threat of pressure and mix-up and giving your opponent almost half a second to recognise that you're going for AoA. Fortune actually beat me to the punch -- I noted the same thing in a draft DM: your use of AoAs actually resets the situation to neutral. AoA starter + 2 hits of mash = opponent teching out. This is the last thing you want with a setplay character like Marie. Ironically, you actually give up momentum and advantage due to your reliance on AoA as a "OMG must stop them blocking" mechanism. Like I said before: you're at advantage if someone is blocking. Stagger pressure. &c. Whatever your crutch and/or bad habit is, ban it for at least a day. For some people, it's Evasive Action; for others, it's DP -- whatever your particular "quirk" is, play for a few days without it. I was (and still am) incredibly predictable with DPs, to the point where I joke I'm not allowed to DP any longer and "you guys stole my fun," but having that option taken away, both by players and by my own artificial limiter, made me somewhat less inclined to commit suicide. It's not that your only combo is AoA, which is a problem for some people thanks to Challenge Mode. (Fortune will tell you that when he started with Chie, the only real combo he had was her Challenge Mode AoA combo. Which worked until we realised that and stopped getting hit by the AoA altogether.) You seem to have some kind of mental block regarding the need for overheads when you have a standing low and a standing overhead (not AoA, the bag slam), and it's as though AoA is a crutch for you. Marie has some great tools, but a three hit AoA that lets the opponent escape is not a good idea. It's not just Marie, either: Aigis has unparalleled mix-up and great stagger pressure, but even with her, you panicked and defaulted to AoA. (And as an Aigis main, that's just ... why ... no... anguished sobs.) I know you've said you feel Marie has weak mix-up but this seems more like a personal thing. Just... slow down. If you're going to use AoA, grind out the mash in training. You'll get it into muscle memory if you practise -- everyone's had to. Some people map A+B to a macro, which may help; I use stick, so I just hold forward after the AoA initiation, hit A and B simultaneously, and have developed a sense of where I am in the rush based on muscle memory and the occasional visual cue. (I used to chant "one-two-three-four-five-six-seven-eight" at hyperspeed to do the rush.) I still don't get it perfectly every time, but spending 20 minutes grinding it one night was about all I needed to start landing the D ender fairly consistently. You just ... practise. There's no reason you can't do the mash. If you feel like you can't, then AoA > OMC is preferable to what you're doing now, as with the OMC, you could actually start an offence instead of letting the opponent go after a negligible combo. OMCs are an important tool for combos and defence, but sticking to defence: if you're unsafe after a move is blocked, OMCing is your friend. It also lets you do stupid things with the spinstate caused by the first, non-mash hit of an AoA. Bursting was another note, but Fortune covered it. My decisions change based on whether or not an opponent has a Burst or 50 meter to OMC and block a reversal. Or whether they have meter at all: the moment a Sho or Minazuki has meter in Awakening, I play very cautiously and wait for them to either spend the meter elsewhere or bait out Moonsmasher. If Fortune has 50 or 100 meter, then Power Slash [>OMC] is a likely reversal, so if I'm pressuring, I either need 50 meter to OMC and block the actual attack or to just back off a bit, keep my strings safe, and not give him a chance to buffer the super and CH me. &c. Regarding j.C to approach: MU knowledge is a factour here, but more generally, being aware of your opponent's meter is something to work on. As Shabrys, once I hit Awakening, meter is huge, as with 150, I can make life hell: I could do Titano with Brutal Impact B for 5.7k off a Guillotine SB starter; I could do Titano but with the extra 100 (or 75 if I use Titano SB) meter, I have the meter to OMC and block if I see your Burst gauge empty (that gauge empties before the Burst hits), OMC and block a Guard Cancel, etc., add Brutal Impact (which version is ... situational if I activate Titano without a knockdown) if one of the moves in the sequence is a CH or FC, or I could do a kill combo that links two EX TV Punch supers for the full 150 meter... or I could do TV Punch into Brutal Impact... look at all the fun ways Shabrys can kill people! Long story short, the more resources Shabrys has, the more threatening she is. If Shabrys is persona-broken, then the only super she has is Brutal Impact. The A version is 30f start-up but still 30f; if I'm landing this raw (didn't combo into it), then it's because I saw someone commit to a bad idea (i.e., it's a punish) and/or run at me without respecting my meter. Generally, j.C is getting you killed here: it's less raw reaction than prediction/assumption -- you jump and I know j.C is coming based on the distance between us, so I buffer Brutal A, which is a 3.6k/2.2k CH punish and/or round-ender. This leads into another reason OMCs can save your lifebar: Brutal Impact has unthrowable autoguard for the duration of its start-up (all versions, but Brutal A is the only version fast enough to be used as a reversal or punish), so if you hit that autoguard (with, say, a 5A or a 5B -- you'll visibly hit Shabrys but you'll also notice Shabrys's new pose and the fact that hitting her inflicted no damage), quickly OMC and block the attack, then kill Shabrys. It is doable -- I have seen it happen. 30f is not outside human reaction time, and your reaction will go up once you realise "oh hey, Shabrys has 50 meter." Same story with God's Hand and lots of other supers, but most supers have invuln frames, so something like wake-up God's Hand > OMC or Myriad Arrows > OMC (OMC when invuln ends) are things that ... exist and why looking at your opponent's meter is vital: it gives you an idea of what options your opponent has (just like whether or not they have a Burst), and adjust accordingly. In the case of Brutal Impact, OMC is not possible if the attack is blocked and Brutal leaves Shabrys in Fatal Recovery -- it's not a particularly "safe" super. Generally, I've caught you auto-piloting pressure or approaching with j.C when I have meter, and because the damage on CH is so high, that's often all I need. Sometimes you seem to be very aware of what's happening on screen, what I'm doing, where Asterius is, etc., but either you panic or autopilot at times and that's usually when I steal the round. In our fights, you do a solid job of keeping me locked down and either breaking my cards or just sealing off Asterius, but when you're at a distance and we're at neutral, the auto-pilot kicks in: you tend to routinely j.C to approach, you go to set an item but Hammer Uppercut hits, etc. Honestly, just calm down. Remove your "default to AoA" panic switch for a few days. Keep working on your stagger pressure and set-ups. You're not in any way bad, but you need to deal with the internal block regarding AoAs and "I have no mix-up," as that's what could hold you back.

("You" gets thrown out generically in this post; it's not directed just at you, Force!) There are times when AoAs are good if someone is blocking your pressure! But you (this one is specific!) read Colpevole's post on GameFaqs, so you know what I'm going to say next: there are options other than "he's downbacking, let's do an AoA" that are much safer. As a general rule, AoAs are very unsafe, so they're high-risk/high-reward, as mashing the hits should be an easy 2.3ish? 2.5ish?k, not counting the combo after the C or D finisher. The rule about mashing (which I am not that strict about enforcing; it's more to curb "that was three six-hit AoAs in one round" habits before they start -- it's easier to unlearn bad habits by never letting them form in the first place) is there to discourage exactly the kind of weak, panicky pressure that Fortune described. Generally, the defender is considered to be at a disadvantage, and the longer someone has to block, the more likely you are to bait a response you can punish. Then there's other factours: who has the lifelead? Is this match point? Who has meter? Burst? If I'm Shab and I'm sitting on 100 meter while in Awakening, I want to get to Titano. This means I have to (1) block and throw tech at your pleasure; (2) determine what, if any, resources I should spend (50 for a Guard Cancel, which means I can't do a Titano + Brutal Impact sequence, so I'll want to get that 50 back if possible; Burst, which could fuck me over, particularly if this isn't match point and I'd rather hold it, assuming Burst is an option at all); (3) attempt a reversal (DP, super) or try to poke out at the risk of being CH'd or FC'd, which, man, with only 8k health as Shab and 9k as Aigis, I do not want that; (4) juggle all of these decisions while reacting to your pressure (because I haven't fought a legit Marie, so I don't have all of Marie's info in my databank -- where you're safest in your strings, where you're baiting me, etc., whereas with other characters I don't even have to retrieve info for "this is a throw set-up, this leaves me neutral on block but I'll get stuffed if I try to poke out," and on and on because I've just ... learned it). Eventually, you internalise everyone's gatlings and learn to block on assumption, not raw reaction, but none of us are really at that point, short of player habits being an issue. In any event, that's ... a brief tour of the newbie blocking mindset: it's very cluttered. You are at advantage here, as long as you don't lose it and start doing really unsafe shit, because I'm the one juggling more risk-reward calculations while also blocking highs, lows, a standing low, and teching throws. But if you stick your butt out? Well, you just gave me a free (possibly meterless) escape, I will CH or FC you for the AoA attempt, and then the pain train starts. Obviously, there's still a place for AoAs, particularly if you're unpredictable with them, but some are more reactable than others due to start-up and animation. For example: Ken's has 32f of start-up, loses guardpoint just before the attack becomes active and is Fatal Recovery, so without Koro for cover or the meter for an OMC, Ken is going to really regret that AoA on block due to the fact that it's highly telegraphed. Of course, if Koro can cover the recovery, Ken is safe, but that means the AoA can't be mindless -- the player actually has to think about "wow, I could die for this" and think, since the risk is huge. Marie isn't the only character in the game with weak high-low; Ultimax favours stagger pressure, not standing overheads. But in a game where any confirm can go into 4k and the pace of rounds is fast, that's what makes stagger pressure so oppressive, in general and from certain characters in particular -- if I guess wrong, go for a reversal and get baited, or fail to block correctly, I may not live. (At least with the characters I play, who all sit at 9k and under HP.) As Shabrys, 2k is 25% of my health bar. If I'm near Awakening and stuck blocking, then the risk is even higher: if I get opened up and put in a Burst-safe combo, that's the game. There's a side issue with AoAs being much, much more viable in netplay, particularly in lag, due to input delay, along with the fact that Challenge Mode contains an AoA combo for everyone. Hey! It's a combo! You've practised it, so why not use it in a real match? Well, because the actual challenge is getting the AoA to hit your opponent. Additionally, since the C ender always Fatals, there's less incentive for players to actually complete the AoA (in Arena, you mashed the correct number of hits or bust), but doing only four hits of mash (AoA attack is one hit, mash is four, finisher is one = your standard 6 hit AoA) murders your damage, and it's unlikely you're going to get to hit your opponent with another AoA. Honestly, in lobbies, when fighting casuals, if I'm hit with an AoA, I always eat the combo rather than Burst immediately ("OMG I didn't block it it's going to be so much damage") because nine times out of ten, the combo is maybe 1k damage, usually less. And that's about when I stop treating my opponent as a serious threat, particularly since what happens next is ... another AoA, usually whiffed. When it's someone who does 16-18 hits of an AoA and actually lands the rest of the combo, I quickly regret the decision not to Burst and my weaksauce defence, but, yeah, that's something else to consider -- it's unlikely you're going to do multiple AoAs in a match, let alone a round. tl;dr AoAs aren't inherently bad and it's not the mash in particular that we care about but the tendency to fall back on AoA when someone blocks 5A > 2A > 5A once. Or blocks a jump in > 5A > 2A. Throws can become a bad habit as well, particularly since (until we get 2.0) the reward can be very low without meter or at certain spacings, and, you know, OSes exist, going for throw too often is going to lead to you getting teched just as often, etc. (And depending on your opponent's health, your throw can do just enough damage to put someone into Awakening, but if you don't spend the meter to OMC and follow up on the combo, you actually did them a favour: now they're in Awakening without Bursting and with plenty of health!) Of course, no one here is perfect. I think everyone who's played me more than twice can predict what move I'm most likely to use in a given situation, which forces me to step-up my mix-ups and pressure. And I've met people in lobbies who've downloaded me as fast as I usually download other players. That's what, arguably, makes fighters fun: you want me to stop blocking but remain safe in that effort; I want to reverse the situation. I'm blocking because I respect your pressure, but the moment YOLO AoA happens, that respect shatters and I will just DP out once I can start making assumptions. ("He's not actually frame-trapping or baiting me, he's not looking to catch my DP, I can just DP this for no risk." This ... is true way too often. It's as fun for me as it is for the opponent.) The rule about mashing is just -- look, an AoA, especially when you don't have the meter to rapid if your opponent blocks (nevermind if they just reversal or throw you out of start-up), is high-risk. So if you take that risk, you should be ready to take the reward, rather than throwing out AoA and hoping it works. It's not that anyone expects an elaborate combo so much as that, no, the lobbies are about ... developing good habits, regardless of skill level, so letting a six-hit AoA into a follow-up combo that the opponent techs out of is pretty much the antithesis of what we're going for here. It's not about winning, either in the training or general lobbies with "netplay" tendencies (I frequently scream at our Mitsuru player that he didn't teach me how to deal with netplay Mitsuru because he doesn't spam The Box); win or lose, no one cares -- it's about understanding the game you're playing, your character, your MUs, and becoming a stronger player overall. And on the subject of "yes, AoAs can be suicide": I have OHKO'd way, way, way too many people for AoAs. If you're predictable or just AoA happy (... I'm across the screen, why are you whiffing AoA over there?) in general and I have 50 meter, I can kill you pre-Awakening with one super. I have fought opponents who have lost both rounds of a match due to AoA meeting a giant "yeah, no." In the worst cases, the AoA wasn't even in range; in others, the opponent could have OMC'd, blocked the retaliation, and punished me for going with the nuclear response (I don't have to super, as that's a risk to me... but if you don't have the meter to rapid or you've demonstrated that you aren't playing as if you're fighting a human being rather than the CPU, that risk is much lower). I could, in most cases, just throw you. I could punish with a move that Fatal Counters into a combo. What's sad is that when AoAs are that poorly used, I don't have to think: I know I will kill you for thinking that was a good idea and you won't learn from it. That's not the kind of player any of us aspire to be. So, yeah. That's the deal with AoAs. Until we see 2.0 footage and/or the meta dramatically shifts, that's why that rule is there. Again: it's not something I enforce every time an AoA clocks in at 11 (or 10, or 9...) hits instead of 12. It's not even about AoAs specifically. But it's there for a reason.

Until 2.0 hits, the rule stands. If you go for AoA, you'd better be ready to back it up with more than six hits.

I TOOK A BREATHER AND GOT SICK AND NEVER FELL ASLEEP SO TRUST ME YOU'LL BE DOING FINE

Yeah, Chest invuln screws Brutal Impact because of where the axe hits, despite the attack being Body attribute. Akihiko's Weave eats Brutal, for example. Brutal Impact is high-risk/high-reward, and definitely not worth the risk unless you're sure Narukami is going to do Raging Lion A or have nothing to lose since you're going to get Fataled for an attempt. I've had better luck when they've started auto-piloting and/or can't OMC -- 5C dash cancel seems to be a good place against less-aware Narukamis, but it really shouldn't be working; it's just "lol netplay" or MU unfamiliarity, not respecting Shab's meter, etc. D slide is Fatal Recovery. If he throws it out, expect him to DP (low level) or OMC (smarter!) if you block it to avoid retaliation. C slide isn't Fatal but same deal, although he can super-cancel C slide on hit or block, although fewer frames of Chest invuln. EX slide has no Chest invuln but cancels into a variant of his DP on hit, which I assume he could use to avoid a punish unless you hit him out of the actual Swift Strike EX. Granted, if the Narukami is approaching solely with ZIOCAR and Lions, you're not fighting Narukami. Even if the most you get from IB is a reset to neutral, it's better than nothing. Yes, Narukami wins at neutral, but any chance to escape the corner is helpful. As BananaKen said, with Narukami, sometimes you just have to block and look for patterns. Some are content to exhaust their gatlings, while others go for a ground throw the moment you demonstrate you're willing to block. Breaking his cards is also good, as if he's down to one, he's either going to attempt a Gold Burst or have to be more cautious about throwing out Izanagi because persona break seals most of his arsenal. With Izanagi gone, he loses Swift Strike, Zio, Ziodyne, and Cross Slash, leaving him with his normal gatlings, Raging Lion, and Lightening Flash (Fatal Recovery). Once Narukami is down to his last card, I usually start looking for the Gold Burst -- Narukami needs meter to stay safe and to get his best damage, so some will try to Gold Burst early (so Burst will regenerate and they can use that meter + OMB). (This makes a grab set-up riskier if they know they can wake-up Gold Burst to beat the unblockable, however.) If you're confident you can bait the Burst (particularly by turning it into a Blue Burst), that's one asset of his down. Once Narukami has 50 meter, I treat him like Minazuki: you will be whiff-punished from full screen if you attempt anything, and you cannot activate Titano without a knockdown, so wait for him to burn it on OMCs or EX skills. If he tries Ziodyne (block) > OMC, try to focus on his feet so you can determine overhead or low. Because of how AUB 2Bs work, he can't 2B you for airblocking, which may be the better option. At certain spacings, you can actually beat Ziodyne C with Challenge Authority if you react to his animation and the flash in time and if he's within Challenge Authority's hitbox (god bless you, enormous hitbox). Not likely to happen unless Narukami really thinks he can punish you breathing with Ziodyne and you're decently close to each other, but it's an option. Theoretically, Brutal A should work to hit him out of the OMC run after Ziodyne, but I haven't ever tried it. Ziodyne > OMC is 100 meter to get in, and he has better ways, so ... yeah. EX Asterius attacks are a godsend in this MU, since everything Narukami does breaks Asterius. Buffalo Hammer's quake doesn't do much damage but it stops (ground) Zio spam if you get the quake to hit him in recovery, which gives you some space -- he can't immediately chase after the fireball. Tangentially, while Narukami is bad in the corner, he's no joy midscreen, either. Watch out for j.B cross-up > land 2A, the same kind of tricks Shab uses.

As was mentioned.

PSN hates us all right now.

Meet-up is at 9PM EST, as per, so an hour from now. Bring on Bancho kicking people in the face and my mic glitching every five seconds. Party!

I do my best to amuse. ;D Though I think Chaos feeling bad inside after winning with Mash A & DP Narukami was hilarious, and the subsequent "omg mixed you SAID AWFUL THINGS AGAIN" explosion was great. (Guys. I'll do it. Don't test me. I will go flirt/phone-sex operator on your asses to make those combos drop. It's happened.) You don't need to apologise, though, Hit. I wasn't trying to call you out in thread, since we resolved the issue in DMs; it was more -- "oh, shit, this hasn't ever happened before and it goes against the norm ... I should make a note." I really didn't want to expose anyone. Oops. Anyway: water, bridge, the norm became a rule, let's all do the Bancho and be one big happy family (with a pet bull). Seriously, though, the most fun I have playing Bancho comes from kicking supposed friends in the face. Narukami, what the fuck are you doing? Seriously. (For those who would like to study the mystical lore that made "Narukami, what the fuck are you doing?" our callsign, here's the source.)

But you're a beast! You caught every one of my DPs. Would love to see you again, as you're fun to play. That Shadow Aigis combo: "Oh, hey, I know this combo! It only works in the corner, though, because, yeah --- [techs and explains, then decides to not block second hit of Gddess Shield]." I always love fighting Aigis as Shab. I still can't block my own Orgia mix-up, but I picked up Shab because of the MU issue, so it's fun to see it from the other side. As for replays: it's been taken care of, but going forward, yeah, guys, don't take matches from the room or with players from the meet ups and make them public unless the other party agrees. I sure as hell don't want my execution errors spotlighted or see comments about "lol they didn't block that?" because the match was, say, from 4AM and the connexion laggy. Part of the reason the group meets is because we seriously don't care if you win or lose as long as you want to learn, so it's always been a "safe," no (real) trash talk kind of zone. If someone's trying to integrate OSes or learning a MU, shit will get fucked up, but no one is going to try either if the risk of those matches being uploaded is there. In any event, it's not an issue right now and it shouldn't be going forward, but now we have "rule." heavy: No one isn't playing seriously (unless it's a Narukami-Narukami fight) -- I think we all give it our all. (To the point where I make you guys chill with those Narukami mirrors.... and then Chaos just felt bad inside, my bad). It's more that there's actual trial and error going on during matches ("can I do X when he does Y"), and the fact that, well, after the five hour mark, no one's playing their best any longer. Trust me: I cut you no slack. ;D (GET BACK HERE AND STAY DOWN. FUCKING DISCO NINJA FROG.) Never have, never will. I mean, "okay, guys, I can't answer any questions now because I'm about to play heavy and I have to focus" (obligatory "FUCK YOU" from Fortune...) is said regularly. It's more... the room changes as it gets later and later. By 3AM, I've made it clear that you shouldn't expect much. "I'm tired and I want to be Bancho and just... kick my friends in the face. Because BONDS."

Guys, please don't upload matches from the room unless the other person consents. >.> I know, everything is public, but training lobbies are for trying shit and seeing what works, Narukami mash-A mirrors, and generally a "no pressure" zone, so uploading your matches defeats the whole freedom to experiment, try and fail, "anything goes" vibe. I really hate being mod-like and killing the fun but this hasn't been an issue until now -- there seemed to be a tacit understanding that what happens in rooms doesn't go on YouTube. Now it's written down. Yay.

Calling Narukami a "fucking stupid character" doesn't change the fact that we have to fight him, unfortunately. His pressure, if the opponent is doing it even halfway right, is generally very safe, and he can simply delay attacks to frametrap you. Learning the defensive OSes is helpful, as something like 5A > Raging Lion A can be covered by Fuzzy Jump. BananaKen has discussed Narukami a bit on his ask.fm page and his advice is to block and look for patterns, try to OS if you see the opportunity, as Narukami really is difficult to challenge. It's worth noting that if a Narukami does a dash 2B in pressure, he's checking for the OS (2B is not jump-cancellable on block now), which is your cue that you're dealing with a legit Narukami rather than the The Netplay 50/50: ZIOCAR or Raging Lion type. 214B/Raging Lion B can be feinted, which sets up a safe-jump after a knockdown and also gives Narukami a really nasty cross-up in which he passes over you and then hits with either j.B or j.2B on the other side. From what I read in the Narukami thread, midscreen Lion B doesn't yield anything unless it's a Fatal Counter (so don't get Fatal'd, as then he gets 4k). He gets a safejump after Bravery B/command throw at midscreen but nothing else, so the more threatening options are Lion B feints into cross-ups and the rest of his arsenal. There are times when you can simply DP Narukami out of his pressure but it's high-risk and your options are going to be influenced by whether or not Narukami is particularly dangerous at that point. Once he hits 50 meter or has you cornered (or both), he's much more threatening. Issen/Lightening Flash (his new super) allows him to whiff punish you from full screen (at the cost of damage reduction) but it lacks strike invuln and only has projectile invuln on the SB version; it's also Fatal Recovery. Of course, if he combos into it, he gets great corner carry, which returns us to the original issue. (Sigh.) Honestly, I feel like you have two options: try to DP (which is either suicide or gets him the hell off) or just be patient. His pressure is very safe, but sooner or later, he does run out of gatlings. When he certain moves is important. Take 2C: it Fatals on CH, but his options decrease the later he throws it out in a string. The forward dash cancel is negative on block, and if he backdash cancels he's retreating, so that's one cue. Expect to see 5C > 2C or 5C > dash cancel early in a string, since 5C is one of his best starters and goes into "lol Shabrys life" damage. Heroic Bravery is ... not pleasant. After the A version, he can go into Lion B or Lion B feint > j.(2)B. Heroic Bravery A itself is -5, but since he's going to cancel that, I need to lab whether or not IB affords any escape options. Heroic Bravery B is the command throw, which has the same proration as his normal throw and goes into the same combo (or so I've been told by Narukami mains) -- because he dashes before the throw, you should be able to hop + j.2B to send him flying, or at least upback. Some people find the animation similar to his 5C dash cancel, but since he's silent during the 5C dash cancel and Bravery B always has an audio cue (and, frankly, it does look different, at least to me), it's worth trying to spot the difference by spending time in training mode; 5C > 236B is possible. On the bright side, while Narukami is still strong, he also lost certain things. 5B can now be swept under, so if you bait it out of him, you can get a CH sweep into an easy 3k + knockdown + set-up as a punish. If you anticipate it at match start, step back and hit your own 5B -- if you score a Fatal, you know the Narukami is hitting buttons. All versions of Zio will cost you a card. Zio C is free meter if you hit D and jump or IAD over the actual projectile, as it's pretty negative; Zio D is hugely plus on block and is a pressure reset due to the limited range. If he uses Zio in the air, you can try to dash/roll under and 2B him for a nice Fatal. (Needs testing, but should be possible, distance depending.) His dive kick (j.2A) also took a nerf and is now negative on block; of course, he won't be jumping in with that. His j.B(B)/j.2B are really good, there's no getting around that, but you can still limit his options by setting up lasers, 8C, or 2Bing him if he gets sloppy on approach. In my experience, a lot of Narukamis are used to ruling the sky with their j.B, so be ready to anti-air him and generally frustrate his air-to-ground approach options. At that point, you have a better chance of baiting out a 5B or 2B for a punish, or he may try Zioing you to keep you from using Asterius, then chase one of his fireballs in. If you time it right and/or distance depending, you can 2C him for Zio (particularly air Zio) for 2.2k CH + dash in. His 2B is not something you want to challenge unless you can bait him into whiffing it; it's fast, hits twice, and it's got a great hitbox. If you do bait the whiff, punish hard. According to VR-Raiden, if Narukami attempts to DP a Massive Slaughter + j.A > j.B set-up, the DP will always whiff, giving you plenty of time to punish him. (The hitbox will never connect due to the angle of his DP.) As for his DP, if you block it or get it to whiff, quickly cross him up to ruin a possible super cancel if he has meter; ideally, the super cancel will just whiff and you have plenty of time to punish him for it.

No problem! If I removed you on PSN, just add me again. >.> I need to clean up my f-list and with lots of people coming once and then never posting, I don't always know who still wants in and who came, saw, and decided we weren't the right fit.

Let's just bracket the "matches in question" part for the moment -- I'd love it if you could just OS Minazuki, but that's part of why he's strong: if you want to 2B (or for characters who can't use 2B, j.A/DP/etc.) teleport, then you're not OSing but rather reacting to the teleport and Fataling it, assuming he hasn't covered himself; if you want to punish his command throw, you're looking at Fuzzy Hop; and if it's a normal tick throw, then, yes, you can use Fuzzy Jump, but Minazuki's options leave you vulnerable if you make the wrong guess on defence. And guessing incorrectly? Ouch. If he lands his command throw with 50 meter and/or gets the meter from the throw, he can finish you with a super cancel if your life is low enough. If you block teleport, he's +4: if you try to Fuzzy Jump it, you're likely to get CH'd from the whiffed throw, while hopping in expectation of a throw leaves you open to it as well, since hops lose to overheads. You can airthrow him out of teleport but the window is tiny; it's not a Narukami 5A > Raging Lion A issue. In a situation where you're choosing from teleport vs. throw vs. command throw, there's no way to cover all options, at least as far as I know. And that's not even taking into account Minazuki's frame traps and the fact that he can blow you up for OSing! Minazuki excels at locking you down, getting you scared, and punishing you for getting antsy. I know what your thoughts are on Minazuki's mix-up but you grossly underestimate his ability to fuck you up. I'd love it if you could reliably beat every option Minazuki has with OSes but the fact that you can't is why he's top-tier. If Fuzzy Jump were the magic bullet, I'm sure we would have heard that long before console release and he wouldn't be resting comfortably as one of the gods of the game. Unless I'm really missing something, there's no way to cleanly OS Minazuki for everything ... same as every other character in the top tier. As far as OSes go, I talk about them constantly and tell everyone to look them over and try them out in training, take note of how various characters can beat them (i.e., what you're looking for in terms of an opponent saying "I think you're OSing and I'm going to call you out for that"), and to at least be aware they exist even if they're not something you're ready to implement. Some of us use them regularly and successfully, some of us don't. M'Ellis taught me the Fuzzy Jump OS when we first met (because I really like learning system mechanics and want to be Omex when I grow up...), then taught the room, and has offered to return and teach us again. I know Chaos is well aware of them, as I've OSed him (and now he's punishing me for it -- never explain the magic trick). So it's rather condescending to tell someone to learn something they already know, nevermind that you look rather foolish since you have no idea what the level of knowledge is, both generally and on a per-player basis, let alone what went down in the match. Hell, if I post "fuck Narukami," it's not because I don't know how to Fuzzy Jump; it's that "Narukami, what the fuck are you doing?" is our group name/catchphrase/motto/all-purpose communication phrase. Defensive OSes are useful, but misusing them will get you killed (timing is real), and God help you if you meet someone who knows how to blow up an OS. And since we're lucky enough to have a high-level player assisting us, we're blessed with the ability to ask a credible source about particular issues. I'm sure Anne will correct anything I've written that's incorrect. The goal of the rooms is to expand knowledge and build good habits, not just OHKO people for being new, learning, etc. Which is why there's that AoA "rule" and why OSes are something everyone is aware of at this point. Doesn't mean some of us don't still hate Minazuki or find him to be a particularly bad MU -- he's decidedly unpleasant for the characters I play (Aigis and Shabrys), but my saying "goddamnit fuck Minazuki" doesn't mean I lack the ability to use OSes. It just means, well, fuck Minazuki. The bad ones are easy enough to beat, but we don't have ones that just mash 5A or teleport at round start.

You're free to say what you will but just to clarify for uninvolved parties: Justice7541 has absolutely no affiliation with the group, is not speaking for me or anyone else, etc. It'd be awesome if this thread didn't get derailed and turn into a misinformation minefield. We've been really lucky to have top-level players come by and assist us, as well as answer our stupid questions, and those of us who began the meet-ups back in June have always prioritised finding credible sources and inquisitiveness. There are facts and there are opinions, but newer players often can't tell the difference, and presenting the latter as the former is just ... never a good idea.

Yukiko's stage is fine; it was "Random" for music. There are a few songs that give me a migraine (disabling illness, yay) and I leave music on so I can cover the crosstalk when I'm in a match. If you want to use one of those songs, it's fine; just give me a heads-up so I can change my volume. We had someone pick a song that gives me a migraine for "lulz," so, yeah, that's why the rule is there.

You're the Shadow Yukari, right? I'm pretty sure we've had a lobby match and you bodied me. Newcomers are always welcome; just add me on PSN. Again, while we have "regular" meet-ups, if one of us spies a few others online, we usually start a room. Invites are sent if we see anyone on who's expressed interest, but you they're very "come if you want to, no pressure" -- you don't have to accept or respond.

Yeah, screw-ups ... are the norm. No one needs to apologise. And if you see one of us online, we're all more than happy to play solo sets and/or do online training ~stuff, look over replays together, whatever. As for Skype: most of us lack a way to play while on Skype and then the overwhelming majority of us don't even use Skype, as I gauged interest in a Skype group a few weeks ago and that was dead on arrival. We generally stick to in-room tutorials or long-ass messages ("here's what's real, here's what isn't, this is a fuzzy," etc.), which I plan to collect and archive. I'd love to accommodate everyone (and get my headset to work consistently), but ... that's never possible. The afterparty was great, as per. We need more Narukami vs. Narukami. "That's not fair! You did something real!"

Belated notes: Yukari's DP beats the grab unblockable (Massive Slaughter + j.A > j.B).Even if you go straight from applying Silence to Magarula, the ailment will wear off in time for Asterius to return and cut the super short.

Well, I only fight boss-level or "The Narukami 50/50: Raging Lion or Swift Strike" kinds, so if nothing else, I wouldn't mind playing some games. The skill level varies -- some people have played fighters for years and have solid defence, combos, etc., some of us are new to fighters, but no one's tournament-material. Knowledge of OSes is common, I hope, since I've talked about them quite a bit, but application is different. We teach each other how to beat our characters, talk about MUs, try to find solutions to things -- no question is stupid, even "what did you hit me with." There's no strict ban on trash talking, but we have several other members (myself included) who wouldn't mind playing calmer and smarter, so we're not in the habit of truly digging into each other or self-hating.

You have, which just makes you even more fun to play. :D