mixedmethods

If this isn't okay to post here, I'll delete it. Yamashita (YMST) made a tier list. Horizontal axis is hard -> easy. It's being talked about on Twitter, so for those who aren't following the convo, I thought I should put it here.

150 meter, and also out of ammo.

I forgot our Lord and Saviour Omex just released another vid. This one shows exactly what you can do with auto-combos -- I should have mentioned that 5A/2A stagger pressure is a major part of Arena, and the 5A > 2A > 5A > 5AA examples reminded me that I failed to note that. I agree with everyone in that ACs are a legit part of gameplay, assuming we're talking about players who know what they're doing. The "AC spam" remark that kicked all this off was just me referring to a few Narukamis who kept mashing 5A at round start, assuming I'd run into the fist, and doing the full AC on block, DP > super cancel when the DP was blocked, etc. Long story short: ACs give you a guaranteed way to convert a hit into damage at the expense of optimal routes, with some characters moving further from optimal than others. (Cough. Aigis. Cough.) Players can also use pieces of the AC (5A > 2A > 5AA) for pressure, frame traps and the like, since 5AA is not a regular input. (And sometimes you can get 5AA even if you whiff 5A but that's an extra level of complicated, so let's leave it at "2A > 5A > 5AA and similar sequences are often really good -- well done, game!") As a player, Demi-Fiend (great username, by the way), you want to make sure you know your options off your AC and to not repeatedly mash 5AAA without confirming that the initial 5A hit. If you've played Score Attack, Versus, or Arcade against the AI, you may have noticed that the AI will often run straight into an AC, but a human player won't. 5A > 2A > 5AAA or even 5A > (confirm that 5A wasn't blocked) > 5AAA[AA] are basic ways to make sure you actually land your AC rather than get blown up by mash. After that, and leaving aside Teddie and Aigis, it's a debate over which characters get the most out of their 5A chains -- which is changing in Ultimax, of course, but sticking to Arena: some characters have ACs that require you to block an overhead (standing) and a low (crouching); some have only an overhead or a low (again, Narukami: one move in the sequence must be blocked low); some have neither. Some have good corner carry, some don't. Some characters have ACs that can be cancelled out of at 5AAA and still combo into massive damage, while some characters are left in a terrible position after 5AAA, and some characters are somewhere in between. (As an Aigis main, 5AA is preferable but if I hit 5AAA instead -- and I do -- then I leave my opponent in hard knockdown and can either mode change or keep going into a non-5A combo.) It's worth picking apart the AC of whichever chatacter(s) you play to learn your options.

All auto-combos (ACs) do sub-optimal damage and, if your opponent is using one, you'll likely have seen it enough times to know how to block it. Narukami's is an easy example: 5AAAA ends with Swift Strike/ZIOCAR, which must be blocked low; if a Narukami is auto-comboing, simply block low (or switch to crouch block) after you see his 5A (punch) turn into 5AAA (sword move). A blocked auto-combo generally leaves the user in a very bad position in terms of frame advantage -- Narukami has a pseudo-safejump for ZIOCAR, but if the player is just mashing 5A and not confirming that any part of the combo actually hit you (rather than being blocked), then he's screwed, as he's at your feet recovering from ZIOCAR and you're free to move/punish/etc. Some characters, like Yukiko and Aigis, use part of their auto-combos in actual combos and pressure -- using the first part of the auto-combo (stop before the super) builds anywhere from 12-18 meter and 1/8 of the Burst gauge. Generakly, a 5AA or 5AAA isn't a standalone move -- it's a move unique to the auto-combo, then there's a command normal (214/236 X), then, if you have 50 meter, a super gets added. The damage scaling is terrible, however, so an AC with super does less damage than a short, non-mash-A combo -- and without spending 50 meter. Also, if you just keep mashing A, your opponent may block your super, meaning you wasted 50 meter. Narukami's AC ends with Ziodyne C, which is bad on block (particularly at close range). Because the super during the AC is a super cancel, 4.x% of your health is converted to blue health, which regenerates only if you don't get hit. Chie can use 5AA in pressure; Yukiko can use 5AAA in some strings; Aigis uses part of her 5A chain in combos because the 5AA launches the opponent but the AC can be halted there to allow her to do 22A/B (activate Orgia), then jump into an air combo that knocks the opponent down. (Then Aigis does Orgia mix-up and puts you into a Megido combo and you're sad.) 5AAA grants hard knockdown. Aigis is a character who gets her best damage in Orgia mode, which will not activate as part of her auto-combo. Her AC also uses 18 of her 120 bullets, so mashing that AC repeatedly will quickly leave you out of ammo. It's also very low damage (2.2k, I think, with the super) compared to, well, anything else I could do in Orgia -- even a single Megido combo will come in around 2.5k, double Megido... the damage depends on the starter, but for 25 meter and no bullets (versus 50 meter and 18 bullets), double Megido is minimally 4k. Aigis's damage comes from Orgia, not bullets. The super at the end of her AC does 2k damage raw, but the entire AC is worth about 2.2k... that's 50 meter spent for really lousy damage, particularly since there are better ways to use that super and get much more damage out of it. That's also not even getting into the fact that ACs don't give you oki, which is another problem. Narukami gets very little out of his 5AAAA string vs. 2AB (sweep) > 5DD > The Narukami Guessing Game. (That's going away next game -- the sweep > 5DD > you're stuck in the corner until you die thing.) His AC gives him some meter gain but compared to the trainwreck Narukami can turn you into, it's a bad deal. tl;dr ACs leave you in a bad situation on block and pretty much everyone who's played P4A knows how to block Naukami's, Chie's, etc. the upshot is that you can't drop a 5A mash (with a few exceptions....), so if you absolutely need to kill someone and don't want to bother with turning the hit confirm into a legit combo, you can mash 5A to take off the last of someone's lifebar. And if you're new and/or blank on a combo, you can mash 5A as a form of offence once you get in (meaning you actually land a hit), but if you're standing there at match start mashing 5A and hoping your opponent will run into your AC, you're ... hitting buttons more than actually playing a fighting game. I'm not saying I'm not guilty of using ACs myself, or of hitting too many 5As and ruining my life, but as an Aigis main, trust me, my 5A mash is the least of your problems. ACs work (in their flawed way) as long as they hit; on block, they're terrible, because they're not meant to be used as blockstrings. That's the opposite of what their intended use is, actually. When I see a Narukami run up to me and try to start a 5A mash at the start of the round, I've already won. Narukami's AC is not threatening. Narukami's (seemingly) endless mix-up, or, as one poster put it, the creeping sense of helplessness he instills in you after he knocks you down is threatening because I have to block that shit, a lot of it is safe on block if he does it right, Aigis's DP won't help me, and I'm left trying to find a way out of the corner before I guess wrong and he gets me with his high/low game. Chie's sweep > 5DD works the same way: you're stuck in the corner unless they screw up.

I had a mental block on puppet characters until I started going ham with Shabrys in P4A. I'm not even remotely competent (I'm just semi-okay at frauding people with frickin' laser beams), but a few things worth noting: (1) Learn to play your character without the puppet. You'll inevitably be in a situation where the gauge is depleted or cards are broken (or you'll have a MU that makes using your puppet much harder) but that doesn't mean you have no offence. (2) The more you play, the more you'll feel out the timing. Honestly, Shabrys's challenges didn't really teach me anything but "wow, this is not the character for me," but after playing her a few hundred times in the past week or so, I've internalised some of the rhythm of her normals + persona moves. It's something that came with plenty of matches -- I didn't "feel" the recovery on the puppet's moves, because I was still running around with an axe, but 300-odd matches later, I have a much better sense of where the puppet is in terms of active and recovery frames. On the other hand, I main Aigis, who is essentially two different characters based on which mode she's in, so keeping an eye on a secondary gauge, meter, moves changing properties based on the presence or absence of "x," etc., wasn't totally unfamiliar territory. Some puppet characters are more technical than others. Carl is known for his high execution barrier but the reward is pressure that never ends. Shabrys has combos and set-ups, no question, but I also feel like she's a bit more ... free-form, I guess you could say, than Carl or Relius. With Shabrys, of course I'm going to try to position myself for that one-hit Guillotine for massive damage, but I also get a lot of things going off of random hits, hard reads, and simply threatening people by reminding them that I have a bull. I always looked at Shabrys as a "nope, not in a million years could I attempt to play her" character but, as Celerity said, you just gotta charge in and go ham. Just hearing "puppet character" was enough to send me running, but if you spend enough time with any character, you're going to naturally internalise their gatlings and How Stuff Works. After that, it's learning to force situations in which you get to do the optimal Stuff. You'll figure out the tempo of the character (and any simultaneous presses) as you start messing around with them in matches. I feel like matches are better than training in some respects because that way, if you command your puppet to act and the move is blocked or whiffed, you'll immediately sense the recovery time (depending on the game -- P4A doesn't let Shabrys keep canceling bull moves into bull moves; Ultimax, however....). It's valuable experience, because instead of trying to do challenges and mash furiously, you'll be playing and able to feel when your "other half" is available again (and learn to adjust for those moments).

I've been slaughtering a glut of Narukamis in ranked lately ... and all of them seem to think that "instant kill = instant win option." I feel like I've blocked and punished more Narukami IKs than usual over the past few days -- we're talking 20-something. That's about all I do. Well, that and axe slam them for failing to hit-confirm their DP super cancel and getting air Ziodyne while I'm on the other side of the screen. The biggest problem with Narukami's IK is that he's grounded, so if he moves his sword and it's not 2B or 5B, you know exactly what's coming and have all the time in the world to block. Shab's works if your opponent spent their burst and you can combo into it... and I understand why Liz players spam hers, with that meter gain -- but seriously, three times in one round? Do you really think I'm that dumb? The epic sadness of her twirling her finger at the vacant counter as you roll behind her and wait to start the punish combo of your choice. Facepalm. Because I'm going to randomly decide to whip out Gatling Gun with your IK up. Omega loves, loves, loves IKs and sometimes we just goof off with them in the room. Someone needs to find that footage of the dual Akihikos going for IK while simultaneously announcing, "I've been waiting for this moment!" ETA: Yeah, I've fought "high rank" players who've played 27 matches and won 26. Whereas I find ranked to be an easier (and more fun, diverse, and productive) way to play matches, as I can work in training, fight, repeat. I wear my godawful win-loss rate with pride ... and also with the knowledge that I accept match requests from people far beyond my skill level because I want to see if I can take a round, make it a close match, steal a burst, etc. That and win-loss, ranks, etc. -- I find it deceptive, to a certain extent. I mean, I fought an F- Yosuke but that could have been someone's alt or someone with 3000 player matches, as he was legitimately good. And then I've had matches against A-ranks and higher where they spam auto-combo or (my personal favourite "Narukami, WTF are you doing" story) had a win through time out but either because of MU unfamiliarity or impatience, decided to lose the match by giving me just enough meter to super, then running straight toward me ... and subsequently into a DP > super cancel. One fun thing about ranked is not having to wait for a turn, as in lobbies, and fighting certain players multiple times. There was a player higher than my level that I could always force into a hard fight but I never won. A day or two and some tape-reviews later, I took a match. It's things like that that I play ranked for -- I'll set stupid goals, particularly if it's the second or third time I've fought someone, like "I will absolutely bait his DP" or "I will attempt at least one throw combo." And then you'll get into situations where you've fought someone multiple times and they refuse to play you once you pull ahead. I guess I see things like that as a sign that -- aha! -- I'm no longer rated as cannon fodder and they need a stat-inflation partner. That being said, if you skip loading screens, I hope you step on a Lego. Just one and no actual injury, but I wish something mildly annoying upon you. Yukiko skyrockets to top tier in heavy lag....

The digital version was enough for me ... mai armor wallet.

Speaking of which, remind me to pass on some tips I got from kupo. And it wasn't an accident p4uplayer. I was definitely amused by your constant IK attempts with Narukami, right through the match end when Shab's DP ate your gold burst.

Hey, Pen_Ninja, if you want to be co-mod, I think it should go to you, honestly. You have seniority and have been part of this community much longer than I have. Or to cover time zone stuff, maybe sub co-mods? I've got a stupid debilitating illness so I can't work, which means I'm around all the damn time, alas. With the Wiki, combos, vids, and MUs, that's a ton of ground to cover. I mean, I'm always happy to do grunt work because, as I told you, I'm a little OCD and I like everything organised (empty MU top posts make me sad), but assuming no regular mod wants to co-mod, if it comes down to current members, I think it should be you before me. The only benefit of having two co-mods that I could see would be two people able to edit top/info thread starters with new info during the opening days (if editing permissions work like that). I'm expecting info overload, basically. I'm liking the 214C + 5B > 236A idea. I'm liking it a lot. With Shabrys, I find myself using wall set-ups and, of course, left-rights (get hit by bull or by Shab: heads I win, tails you lose), so I was hoping we'd find similar set-ups for Ken. One thing I like about the aforementioned wall is that it forces the opponent to guess (or, if they've committed, to get hit). I'm really curious how the MU dynamic will play out -- when I play Aigis, lots of people try to rush me so I can't start my most damaging game, whereas when I'm Shabrys, there's a lot more ... trepidation, as opponents don't want to come in range of a bull attack or, God forbid, a Guillotine knockdown. It'll vary by character, of course, but I think Ken has the ability to be threatening at range, much like Shabrys, and I'm looking forward to seeing if we can use a fear aura. Though thinking about the wall set-up, I'm wondering if certain characters could blow it up completely ... namely, Aigis, since 2B would take out Koro and give her mode change breathing room if 5B > 236A whiffs. Vulcan Cannon isn't usually a great move but it moves her in the air and acts as a sort of "fake jump," so now I need to test if she'd be airborne long enough to hit Koro and dodge 5B. I'm guessing the spacing is going to be very tight. Then again, not sure what she could covert a VC hit into out of Orgia, and she has great new air options now ... I'm really looking forward to testing that MU.

VR, are you our forum mod? Awesome! At launch, I was planning to start a combo thread with the standard template so that optimal combos, challenge mode combos (and solutions, if necessary), etc., would be organised in the top posts, as Pen_Ninja and I are going to try to collaborate on testing. But now that we have a mod, would you rather I wait until you return? I imagine we'll also be able to start MU threads pretty quickly as well, even if they begin a bit bare bones. I don't mind doing the tedious "updating first post as new tech as found" grunt work but since we have a mod, I figured I should defer to you and ask if you'd rather delay forum overload until you have more time to, well, mod. Because fun first, then modly duties.* *Autocorrect gave me "mouldy duties" ... probably more accurate.

Achievement unlocked! I had an Akihiko rage-quit my Shabrys. That was ... interesting. Didn't think I'd ever be on the receiving end of a RQ. (The only other time it happened, the first round was clearly mine but not the match; this time, the opponent was about to lose the match.) Well, you did say my Shabrys is getting nastier....

Good stuff, Pen_Ninja. Thanks for the info, as always. Given Ken's AA (or lack thereof) and his j.A, I'm ... happy I'm an Aigis main, because I'm used to going air-to-air. I'm planning to download the Japanese version and see what I can learn from challenges and training mode. I know Ninja mentioned 214C straight-up going through supers, so I'll definitely be looking into that. Anyone else planning to hit the lab early or have any requests? Assuming region lock isn't an issue, of course....

No, because meet ups are pretty frequent and I typically hand out anti-(character) tech whenever asked or after noticing something. But we can add you to the rooms.

Well, the achievements looked exactly like I expected -- BB-style "certain conditions for characters" trophies (though mercifully few... what could have been: win a match using all of Mitsuru's freezes, win a round as Aigis while out of ammo/never going into Orgia, etc.), Abyss/Golden Arcade ones, and just like in BB:CP, an achievement for missing a burst.

The Shoryuken forums are dead and all my local searching has come to nothing, so I thought I'd ask here: is anyone comfortable troubleshooting and repairing a HORI RAP N3-SA? I'm in the Midwest, but any region is fine; I'm willing to pay for the shipping since local is not an option. The most likely issue is a short in one of the USB wires, which would require soldering a new USB cable to the board ... unfortunately, I have no experience with soldering, so if the stick isn't permanently broken now, it will be after I attempt that solution.

I've tried two HORI sticks, both Real Arcade Pro models -- the RAP N3-SA and the RAP V3-SA Kai. Personally, I prefer the N3, but it was my first stick, so I'm likely biased thanks to first impressions. There's a fair amount of space to maneuver your hands due to the case width being 10.6 inches, which is quite generous. There's no beveled edge, however, and some people find the screws on the top of the case obnoxious and skin-irritating. (I haven't had that problem, but it's something to note.) The V3-SA is 1.2 inches smaller in width but has no screws to potentially obstruct movement. I don't have exceptionally large hands (I'm female, tall, and built like an athlete, not a ballerina, but "not particularly small hands for a woman" means my hands are likely still significantly smaller than yours) but I find myself feeling cramped on the V3. (It could just be relative unfamiliarity, but I don't think the V3 and I will ever fully synchronize, which is why I plan to return it. The button layout just feels oppressive.) The V3 has padding to keep the stick from slipping while on your lap, while the N3 doesn't, but that's either a non-issue or something fixed by buying some felt. Depends on whether you're going to play with the stick on your lap, on a shelf or table, on the floor, etc., which is something you'll likely end up testing out regardless of the stick you purchase. I can put my N3 on a table or my lap and play fine whereas the V3 must be on my lap, but the V3 is quite light, which isn't my preference... it's a very, very good stick that isn't right for me. If you really want space (and weight) and are willing to spend some money, the HORI Fighting Edge is probably your best bet. It's what I plan to swap my V3 for, as despite using in-house parts instead of Sanwa, the Fighting Edge has everything I want: space, weight, better button placement. As much as I love the N3, I hesitate to recommend it -- (as I've just learned the hard way) it has a known issue with the USB cord shorting early in the stick's lifespan, so if no one in your area can do fightstick repairs, you'll need to ship it to someone who can fix the issue unless you're proficient with soldering. (On the other hand, a friend of mine has the same stick and hasn't had an issue despite his stick seeing four months more use, so maybe I was just unlucky.) The Fighting Edge is 60 USD more than the RAPs, though, so make sure you purchase from a vendor that allows returns if you find you absolutely hate it. That aside, all the sticks I just mentioned are ball-tops, since that's the standard, and other than the Fighting Edge, they're all Sanwa. You could try purchasing a cheaper stick that doesn't use Sanwa or Seimitsu parts to get a feel for stick and upgrade later, but that's your call. I decided to spend the money and buy a more expensive stick, since I didn't want to transition to stick and then make a sudden jump in quality by swapping in-house parts for Sanwa ones.

Room tonight around 9PM EST, for those who didn't hear the announcement last night. I can play again! No mocking me for my unwanted five day hiatus.... Sorry to hear about your Internet, kupo. Hoping to see you tonight! That 6k combo you pulled last night was sick.

Since my stick is still shot, I won't be able to start the room tonight -- it's up to heavy or Omega. I will have a working stick tomorrow, so if enough of us are around then, we can always do one of our rooms that descends into madness as the night goes on.

As an FYI, my stick broke last night. While I'm hoping to have it fixed by Friday, there's no way of knowing whether or not that will come to pass. If Omega wants to host the room on Friday, I'll do the invites then bounce because, well, I can't play (WTF HOW DOES PAD WORK AND HOW DID I PLAY ON IT BEFORE). If anyone has experience troubleshooting HORI RAPs or replacing the USB cable, please DM me.

The effectiveness of EX Dash Spring depends on whether the game considers Koromaru a projectile. EX no longer goes full screen, so there's that to consider as well. As far as the projectile part goes, the best comparison I can think of is Aigis's Megido -- she's not a projectile at that point, but she has a massive hurtbox, which is why a fan from Yukiko can destroy a YOLO Megido. (You can try it training. Have Aigis do a Megido at range, send out a fan, and laugh. If you ever watch Aigis do a raw Megido, everything but the exterior flames is a hurtbox.) Of course, Yosuke is fast and it's only ten frames until the projectile invuln kicks in, but if he collides with Koromaru, I think he'd be knocked out of the run. Anyone know for sure? Ken vs. Teddie is a MU I'm really interested in, along with Ken vs. Shadow Labrys. Kuma's 5B is ridiculous, but so is Ken's, and both players can step back and let either their persona or dog take over at match start as they feel each other out. Teddie changes everything, though, so... up close, Ken has ridiculous pressure, but Teddie has better reversals and that DP. My Kuma experience is relatively limited, though, as I haven't fought a good one. If Ken has meter, Fire Breath might stop Teddie from approaching after he puts down the item obstacle course. One question for those who played and tested Ken: any thoughts on how meter-dependent he is?

GGs to everyone in the rooms this week, particularly HDTran, BaconZero, and nilcam or "Team Rare But Missed." And GG to kupo, generally and during the "things that should not have happened... have" match.

I'll just go ahead with the room as normal. 9PM EST, let's have fun, bring snacks -- same rules as always.

So that's Heavy and kupo. Fortune, are you going to attend? I don't want to spam invites to the rest of the gang if they're mid-match in UNIEL....

No. Projectile invuln starts at frame 10, three frames faster than it did in Arena.

I was wondering if people wanted one. If they do, then sure! Was assuming UNIEL would make running one pointless....