reaVer

Duh. I didn't say it was simple, its still a 2 way game. And with item out you simply have to wait till that item is gone, eventually the completely useless crap comes out and he has to zone by himself.

I haven't had a Faust that really tried to get momentum on me, but the trick pretty much is to beat his zoning. He can't really zone ground and air at the same time, so you should use that knowledge to base your offense on. If you get close to Faust, he pretty much dies because you out prioritize everything he has. Whether you do this with level or without level is up to you, just be sure to avoid his scalpel. If you see Faust go under his blanket, use Ri, it will avoid his attack completely or even punish it. In some cases you get a GB that hits. I wouldn't really bother poking him as he has plenty of ways to beat OS's ranged attacks. Just get close, do your damage and finish him off.

Its in a combo video I think, and I do it lots vs CPU baiken, she floats to high for dustloop though.

I'd put Inoue somewhere between Sanma and 0, imo he's slightly less solid than KZO but a lot more solid than Sanma. He's more like a guy spending the whole match waiting for that moment he catches fire and when he has it he burns his opponent to death. Sanma isn't super flashy, I'd say that apart from his combos he's a really basic player. He doesn't do anything weird or gimmicky to get himself going. Amongst OS players KZO is the least likely to lose health over some shit. He can get mixed up for a good combo, but its not like "duh, what was I thinking?" stuff that other players tend to have. Even 0 from a year ago or so had those moments but he got rid of a significant amount of them(becoming really solid in the process). I'd say that KZO's game is more in tune with people trying to keep him in a lock and considering his losses, back then any OS player lost to FAB, there haven't been many OS vs Baiken vids out and KA2 got a legit victory over him (and the current best west Sol player Roi).

Kaqn doesn't compare to 0 imo, he might be on Sanma's level or might even be below that. He never should've taken that OS vacation trip.

Startup < |-SD| So lets take some values: Startup = 5, SD = +6 Then -SD = -6 Then |-SD| = |-6| = 6 Then 5 < 6 so you're able to punish moves that give the opponent 6 frames of advantage. No, its incorrect:P The one I gave is correct.

No, because that way you'd say that if some attack is +5 you can still interrupt it with a 4 frame startup move.

that's mathematically incorrect XD Should be Startup < -SD

No, slashback costs tension and only on success you get it back :P

0 has a very good game overall, same with KZO imo. Those 2 barely make any mistakes when it comes to playing the game.

Its not a get out of pressure for free button since you're paying 50% tension. Next to that, if the opponent happens to evade it by guarding for example you can get punished. Ogawa FDs 24/7 and he is one of the best players around so that other statement is rather invalid:P And yeah, they can throw you, but they have to wait longer to be actually able to than when you were in regular guard(good idea vs Potemkin to evade his buster). That second paragraph is exactly my point, its that specific property that makes most DAAs worth their while.

There's always FD to get out of pressure:P I'd think that Venom and several others would do it because it puts them back in a favorable position, since they can attack from half a screen away. Others would do it for combo into further pressure. But not just to get out of pressure: if the DAA wouldn't knockdown the player wouldn't use it :P

The only moment you'd ever want to advance towards Eddie is when little Eddie isn't out yet. If little Eddie is out let it drain, fake airdashes or running in, making him whiff all that with his little Eddie wasting his meter and get close when he's about to unsummon. They tested that over at the Slayer forums, Slayer doesn't get a CH 2S if you don't push the AC button. That 2S also hit at the earliest possible moment after guarding. If you look at the frame data you'll also see that SV has no added CH state.

Tick throws have counter mixups that work on people trying to interrupt them. SV interrupts with 2 hits defeating both hammerfall and potbuster, a normal poke simply does not. The payout in damage is little, but you gain offense, you get close to your enemy. Damage is just around the corner in those cases. You're not gonna SB a 2 hit attack on the first hit and then waste it with a SV. Heck, you're better off SBing the second hit of an attack and then using a regular punisher. Its simply not as rewarding as other options which are at that moment guaranteed hits. Yes, mixups exist on both sides. we were talking about the 236S summon, not when Eddie has little Eddie already out. Because doing it there isn't just suicide, if you wanted and were able to hit something your normals/specials/forcebreak could do it. So I'm saying that those players make the thing work. I used them as a reference on how they make choices on how to use it. I'm not saying I'm gonna throw one in every single situation they did, but the general mindset behind it still counts, heck it even counts on the higher levels as I illustrated to you. The next Sol I'm facing doesn't have to be one that eats the first SV, so at that point I'll stop doing it in that situation till I see he actually goes forward and tries to capitalize on it. If you know how to attack your opponent after you hit one of those, that thing is a scare tool. Its pretty much a drop whatever you were doing, you're going to get raped now tool. You don't get the damage on the first go, you'll get it later on. Also remember that you're not gonna be needing it for a while after so the chances of people getting to read your behavior is smaller. And all this I've said earlier. Champion: You destroyed your own argument a while ago where you said Eddie shouldn't be doing certain things that actually are up for discussion. My experience deals with the situations discussed here, it doesn't matter whether some noob, Isa or Ogawa is pulling this shit out, the situation remains the same. The guy I play with likes these situations and lets them occur quite often.

Oh sorry, I guess matchup experience just isn't good enough for you now is it?

Again, SV does not leave OS in CH state unless he attempts to AC. One of Potemkin's counter mixups is hammerfall FRC. And I'm sure you have seen what can come out of that one. It will hurt just as much as a potbuster, unless he has more tension in which case he can hurt you a lot more. Yes you can play that game too, but its still giving Potemkin a decent amount of options to work with. In the entire post you made you omitted this point which was the point I was making. He has to commit to defending, not attacking with a hole in it. And its surprisingly hard for people to hold their offense to bait you. Especially since that if they do nothing they lose their offense. While most other options don't force them to fully commit, they have to here. And yes, if you combine it with the other defensive options you get even better effects. You don't just have to SV all the time, but if you add it to your arsenal of defense effects your backdashes, jumps and guard will work a lot more effectively. If you have l3 at such times, you're not gonna SV, you're gonna l3TR because that takes off half his life. If Jam wants to evade your SV she'd have to end up at a certain distance to do her setup, just like most other characters. Instead of SVing after finding out she put herself at bait distance you can FD earlier and she won't be able to hit you with her low profile move. Adding to that come the alternative options which hurt(fafnir and l3BRP). Not enough for your opponent to work with. Ok, so lets think about it, say your SV is inside nobiru invincible frames, we know where the summoner is. Guess what SV will hit if it can't hit nobiru, guess what will happen to the nobiru. As a competitive player you have to, if your opponent doesn't think twice about SV he's taking up freedom from places he shouldn't -> he becomes more careless like he would be against characters that have poorer defense than OS. And you don't need to do it for 3 games long or whatever. KZO did it very simple when isa was running for him, SV once, see what he does and in isa's case he threw the switch to "I'm dealing with a moron, SV TIME!". Against Ogawa he used the SVs a lot for just one round just to make sure Ogawa wouldn't try some shit. If you watched the SBO match vs KA2 you can also see that SV isn't his preferred move by a long shot because he kept it back till the end of the second round.

MATH TIME! 38(summon frames)-12(SV startup frames) = 26 frames where OS can hit Eddie. And all those frames he hits for CH. Now if we add the 8 frames from the second hit of SV we get 18 frames. Which regardless of hitstop still leaves room to hit Eddie. Now something that would be food for thought is how much hitstop OS receives against him when hitting little Eddie. No it does not, you'd need to delay 2H and wait for OS to drop a significant amount which would mean you'd miss the AC FRC moment. Nobiru only combos in the corner because the opponent can tech right after the wallbounce.

It can happen you get CH'ed like that, the chances of that specific case are very low. But OS himself thrives on people itching to interrupt him with such normals and several other characters can also be very painful if they stuff you with the right normal. If you SV however, your opponent can't stuff you, he has to either low-profile or guard. Out of the two, low profile isn't very common and most characters that have em have certain risks to them as well, Sol for example needs to cancel 2D or he'll lose his offense and you can reversal l3brp/fafnir his ass for trying it. The other option which most other characters are stuck with is guard and punish, which means they have to drop whatever they are doing because they expect you to SV. Their entire offense ended at that point. The post-active CH state on SV only activates after pressing the D button, so if he punishes you with 2H after you killed off little Eddie doing a nobiru and you didn't attempt to AC, it will be the worst punisher ever. The same goes against Potemkin and Slayer(though Slayer can get some decent tensionless damage). So to get proper damage out of a SV without AC, they'd have to let you land first so you can't get out. Which against Potemkin means a potbuster(which he would've been doing anyways), against Slayer the famous very long combo using either BBU or sweep RC and Eddie will then get you into knockdown where he can either attempt a H-drill unblockable or if he still has little Eddie can attempt a mawaru loop. Nobiru has 6 frames of invulnerability, SV has 12, you will beat nobiru most of the time with your SV and as I stated above, if you didn't AC where Eddie would hope you did, you're taking minor damage. The case where you can hit bother little Eddie and Eddie himself is at the moment he summons nobiru or when little Eddie is in that sort of range and Eddie is above the ground. After guarding nobiru, which you'll have to in nearly any other scenario Eddie kind of has you where he'd want you. To prevent you from jumping away or hopping right over to imprint that j.H into his face he'll be likely to poke you with something like 5S or 2S and then he hopes to get the mawaru in where he can pretty much do with you whatever he wants. So if you SV right after guarding nobiru you tend to CH Eddie for putting out one of his pokes and that means knockdown -> your offense. Yes, there's this painful thing in case he didn't, but that's the game. You can of course decide to just guard the nobiru, get yourself stuck into mawaru loop, get mixed up, get set up for 2 unblockables, get dizzied and perhaps eat another combo with unblockable. Then you die, but at least you didn't SV!

nobiru is indeed safe and what not, but if he summons it you can kill off both nobiru and hit Eddie(and I believe for CH which goes into combo) in one go. And yeah, Eddie can do nothing, but that only makes your job easier, because you won't have to SV to start with. Now Eddie doing a completely safe nobiru, he often wants that offensive gap closed asap, so he'll be likely to attack you right after and then convert to mawaru and get you into that loop, so that's another place where SVing tends to pay off and again, if he does nothing, you don't SV but kill off his little Eddie instead. Guessing everything right is the trick of course. Also, if you fear 2H or nobiru S(or a combination of the 2) for punishment don't try to AC, you'll get a normal hit and you can tech out of any followup. DPing when you're in a defensive position, thus where your opponent is attacking you with you being unable to retaliate normally is defensive DPing, so is pushing other attacks at that time. So in a sense DPing is the least risky method of defending yourself aside from guarding, backdashing and jump guarding. Using a normal attack to interrupt is riskier because you can get stuffed for CH, you can guess what that means for OS, what it means for Potemkin scoring that CH 2H with 50% tension and you'll probably know that they are not the only characters that can rape pretty hard on those hits. And against them, receiving a punisher isn't nearly as damaging. Offensive DPing is what Sol does best, use a setup, go in for the DP, RC it if necessary and go for the combo and OS's dp is worthless on this account except when its l3 or TK height l2 in a corner.

No, I would SV Eddie doing regular S after running into range. And afaik SV beats little Eddie S unless its a punishment.

I reiterate what I said earlier: SV is not about doing damage. If you were VVing with Sol, you're doing it for the 1 hit CH which converts into 200dmg sidewinder loop. For OS this isn't the case, you're doing it to prevent your opponent doing certain things which puts you in a more favorable situation. If you for example have an Eddie that's mashing that S button every time you run in and magically holds it when you jump and AAs you, SV is a godsend. And why? You hit, you get close(and don't need to use it for a while) and you get control over him. This means that for a certain period he is your bitch because you hit that uppercut.

Neithan: FD break, 1f jump guard aren't always your tickets out of defense, sure they can help you prevent getting your opponent free hits and sometimes he might even whiff something. But then you're somewhere outside your own fafnir range or if you're a bit in range you can't capitalize on it at all so you still can't do shit. And sure, there's a few characters less susceptible to the SV and against some its even advisable not to use it at all(such as Johnny), against others you're gonna be stuck with it(such as Eddie and Chipp). I'm not preaching that much about it, I'm just saying its a good tool in certain situations and a lot of people are just blindly disagreeing. Oh, and I managed to hit someone 5 times in a row with run up SV XD And for the last one, someone thought SV AC FRC SV was a combo apparently.

Well, anything can work, though some stuff simply works better. But you don't really need to wait for him to guard low, if you do something like 2P-K-S and your opponent was standing he'll reflex guard low most of the time which allows you to get your l3BRP in. Once he finally stops that you get your CC fafnir in. Though if you use the setup too often and he has an uppercut, he might be tempted to use it and that way you can't mix him up using that for a while. Also, there's tricks with FD that push you out really far if you use 2 or 3 hit strings(often enough the 4th hit wont hit). Then there's defensive timing issues, if you do a mixup with a big hole like 2P-K-D vs 2P-K-H(RC) he can just guard low in the first 9 frames which he'll be doing if he's reacting to overheads and then guard high afterward which will guard the overhead. So to prevent that you can use stuff like 2P-H vs 2P-K-D which leaves a smaller gap for your opponent to kick his guard high. Next to that 2P-H is a counter mixup to 2P run in throw so if he's focussed on guarding you get the throw for free.

Sigh, what? Impossible to do so lets replace it with something like: So now we have something where the opponent somehow thought that after 2K he was supposed to guard high. So lets just assume the opponent was in standing guard and the 2K also hit. continuing the fix: This one is option select guardable, though I doubt it will be done in europe or USA. You can in fact IG 2D and then proceed to IGing the BRP despite whiffing the IG against the 2D that never came out. The other option is he's gonna try IG the 2D and buffers in an uppercut which is a nice way to destroy your l3BRP. Doing this one first would probably work better because he's probably going for the guard option select. So you CC after 2K, and who wouldn't expect something like a throw attempt there? Doing a CC there should not just wake up an opponent, because you're so close, you're setting yourself up for an uppercut vs throw mixup. This wasn't put to discussion in the first place. And to illustrate: j.S fuzzy: -both 2D and dj.H timings should be the same, making it NOT option select guard able. - The gap is closed, people cannot mash something like an uppercut in between. This makes the mixup 50/50 and completely safe to execute. This is why Hintalove stated its a good mixup and to prevent getting AAed while trying to fuzzy you do it from a BRP FRC. Quite frankly, while any mixup can, the j.S fuzzy works better. Now, if you want something to actually use on your opponent without him option select guarding it as easily, you can use something amongst the lines of 2P-K-D CC Fafnir(with a 23F gap between D impact and fafnir attack) vs 2P-K-D l3BRP(with a 18F gap between D impact and l3BRP attack, and will have 22F gap when using l1BRP) which leaves a maximum of 5 frames difference compared to your mixup which was 9F from 2D vs 22F/20F/18F from l1/2/3BRP, giving him 13F/11F/9F to option select guard high or mash in an uppercut. At the same time, using 2P-K-D CC puts you out of reversal uppercut range which means that if you attempt to throw him, you can still stop before getting hit, or if he did it early you won't get hit at all(which is something key). If you want to end up close to your opponent for throwing him more quickly, you can use simple stuff like 2P or 5K, heck I've even seen kaqn stopping a string at 5S in / (which meant -3 !) and he dashed in and got the throw, but CC is just waking up your opponent, its saying "my string ends here" "this is a setup" and doing a setup at very minor advantage while making your opponent aware that nothing else is gonna show(because you can't do shit after CC) he'll be likely to do something and fuck you up. Some trivia, that 2D CC distance is good for a jump in attack which allows you to fuzzy if your opponent was trying to stop your throw attempt with a ground poke.

If someone keeps putting out high range pokes which are -6 or better on guard you're either gonna jump or you're gonna SV, if he never guards but always pokes, you're gonna keep SVing till he dies. If your opponent keeps mashing shit that you can't deal with otherwise, you're gonna SV. If your opponent puts you in a attack vs throw mixup and never guards, you're gonna SV(hey KZO vs Isa!!!). If you happen to find out that you made a mistake and your opponent cannot properly punish you due to timing issues and what not(hello KZO vs Ogawa!!!) you're gonna go for the mixup in hope of getting out. This is what I mean, do it when it works. The gradation this works depends a lot on who you're playing against, so I can't tell you "do SV this much" because there will be someone baiting your ass 24/7 while another just runs into them blindly.