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This basically. What I was trying to do Gramas, is incite you to enter a european major in hopes of being able to show you 'decent'. Because I can take your pattern in a similar way: If you consider being decent in a fighting game by mastering what your character can do, it would be the same as me being able to grab say... crystal maiden and use all my spells and combo those spells appropiately. Or in CS, being able to run aim and shoot; oh and jump, but that's a little overrated when they took out bunny hopping. For me these are the utter basics. When I see someone playing GG pull up the movelist before he starts, I know he's not going to last and it's the same in the other games. One of the major things that I notice about more mainstream games is that access to the high level players is almost impossible. If I wanted to play with members of the Na'Vi team in dota, I'd first need to manage to get to 'very high' skill level and then there's a random chance I might get into one game with them. And even if I would shine in that game, they wouldn't care and I still wouldn't be capable of playing with them or learning from them. When you look at GG, essentially your wallet is your limit. If I go to USA I don't have people going "I won't play you because you're too low skill", nor do I have this kind of bs in europe; heck to top it off, I even got games with N.O, as did everyone that wanted to play against him! This matters a LOT; we as a community have access to our stronger players in one way or another. We can learn from them and improve much faster than the mainstream scenes because of this(catching up is easier than expanding). This to me is the main observed difference between our scenes. And that might cause you to think that mastering those games is much harder, but in reality, your progress is just much slower thanks to all the bullshit in there.

Just light the bat signal when you need me again! WHOOOOOSH!!

You need to learn to find the simplicity in the complexity, just like an other decent game. Almost everything you learn in GG can be applied to other games and vice versa. You for example have momentum in dota and starcraft, same way as you have zoning in both of those games too. The terminology can be different, but if you look at high level games there, you will notice it's what a lot of players are constantly doing. And for those games it's no different, you will need to put in your practice time, you will need to take advice and even after years of playing those games can be even less rewarding than GG(especially dota falls into this category -> *THANKS FOR FEED TEAM*). Maybe your definition of decent is different than mine. I would consider myself somewhat decent and it means I'm able to get a top16/top8 ranking at non japanese major tournaments. You however, I've never even seen playing the game. And that makes your statement rather bold.

Lets clarify that, the first frame is for mutual attempt which puts players back in neutral, the other 2 frames are relaxation frames where whoever is late breaks the throw at a disadvantage.

Easy, if both players attempted the throw at the exact same frame, neither would throw and their 5H or 6H would come out. This meant that whoever had the fastest 5H(robo ky) would get the counter hit on the opponent. The throw break is there to prevent such scenarios from occuring and the relaxed it a bit so GGXXAC close quarters wouldn't become about who could mash the H button the fastest. As you can see, I'm in favor of keeping them in.

Oh I'm sorry, I thought this thread was about identifying problems, my bad... But erm, then why is this thread here? So you are suggesting that people being silenced does not contribute to dustloop's poor image? No, I said it will take years before you get to a moderate level. And sorry, but I cannot count your majors as moderate level; you kinda blew that. Furthermore, if people can become really good at this game in 6 months, that's good for them. But that's not something you can expect from a player nor can the player expect that from himself. I know I sound pessimistic, but sadly that is how it is. No, the fun is in the game's complexity. The fact that that makes the game fundamentally hard to play is a sideeffect that almost any of the dedicated players here are willing to take for granted. I don't think newer players should be spoonfed into winning matches. It's detrimental to the morale of the veteran players and it takes away what has kept veteran players into this game for so long. That said, I've stated this before, easing up execution (AS LONG AS IT DOESN'T CAUSE AMBIGUITY) is one of the simplest things you can do to lower the initial barrier that newer players have to face. All of a sudden they don't have to spend weeks to learn to hit their FRCs, they won't need months of practice to get the FRCs into their muscle memory and that time can then be spent on learning the actual game instead, which to me is more important than how people do this. A pressing match? You know... you're reflecting an awful lot on me, but your tone is almost as if you're waiting for me to have a go at you. But sure, as I'm easily provoked I'll just draw you a simple outline: We don't need FRCs to be this difficult or even inconsistent, it's just a random factor that completely dissappates when the player gets better and better while it does not limit any experienced player in any way. Having played and watched N.O at showdown, he dropped the ball(well, he dropped lots of balls since he plays venom) on his execution after like... me wailing on him, followed by Goga having a go at him, giving him some rest with a more nervous player and then me going at him again. Now me and Goga cannot play more than 30 matches against eachother without wearing eachother out. N.O faced us AFTER him playing for 8 hours straight during tournaments and what not. He simply wouldn't make mistakes like you and I would and having a system like FRCs is much more beneficial to him in that case than to me or you. On the other hand, I don't think the input buffer would need relaxation in terms of input, there's already enough cases of ambiguity and adding systems like found in SF4 where almost anything can become a dragonpunch just isn't beneficial. Nor do I think the combos need changing, the benefit of GG is that these combos can be tailored to your wishes and you can initiate one from almost anything. Yes it leads to difficult combos in some instances, but it wouldn't really matter for a newer player in the first place. Kaizen: there's no such thing as too hard really. But GG definitely is one of those games you cannot step into with just one foot. Because if you do, you won't get anywhere. While when you step in with both feet you can see a whole new world opening to you. Well, I suppose there's no point in telling GG players that, but GG develops a player in more ways than one. As for the BR spam, just keep doing it. You can then when they ask help them logically deduce what to look for when beating that move. While this seems like treating them like retards, it helps them not just in this case, they can then look at other moves and go like "what properties do I need to beat that move? which of my moves have these properties?". All players that played with me have had their share of BR, BRP, Ri and BHB spam; but once they get passed that, they can deal with it, often in rather fearsome ways too. Sadly, I will have to drag the misfortunes of other communities in here. People coming from other fightinggames often don't even have this kind of knowledge on hand. When I see other communities I tend to see one player doing something really stupid like stomping on someone's head with something like Chun Li's j2MK all the time and they call themselves moderate players. With what I know right now I know for a fact that they are not as smart as they think they are; but the reality is that that sort of stuff happens. You will have to get players over that hump where they can freely think for their own, rather than relying on a rulebook to plot out the scenarios for them.

Like I said earlier, and it's quite simple. We should be honest with the players trying to play the game. GG isn't a game you just learn, it can take years before you get yourself on a respectable level. It's a game where you can spend hours in training mode, hours in arcade mode, days in casuals and still see little progress as far as results go. It's one of the amazing things that this game has yet can make it impossible for some players to play it. So it's always fair to tell people that when they are getting into this game, they are gettiing themselves into a real challenge that can take them years to overcome. And to me it's why this game is worth my time everytime I play it, because you can learn, improve, etc. You can always come up with new stuff and make it work for you and it gives you enough room to develop your own style. Even BB doesn't go this far in my opinion. But if a player is interested in just winning or pushing buttons, this game might just not be for them. They will play against you and they will lose and they have to face up to the fact that this is how anyone starts That is just honesty. Next up, people should stop dictating to others how this game should be played and seriously need to stop that they are part of some truth ranking where their opinion is automatically more valid than anyone else. Yes, I'm referring to how I got banned and what happened when I got back. It's almost laughable to see that you're getting kicked to reinstate the previously disrupted ranking and that when you finally do get back you see that they have been doing fuck all except for parroting eachother's words: nothing new learned, no progress on what people can do to deal with certain situations. Even up to this day, I'm sure that most people on this forum don't even know why dragon punches are effective tools. It's quite frankly just appaling and disrespectful to people who actually are learning their stuff and are developing some proper game sense. And don't get me wrong, I've been the same for quite some time, but I changed; which is very notable with my playing style. And if anything, stop deleting posts/handing out infractions because you don't agree with whatever the person is saying or because you perceive the person to be misguiding/misguided. If you state your arguments properly and show people why they are wrong; readers are much more likely to pick up on you as a source of information than the guy you are arguing with. The other guy can learn in his own time that he is wrong(or maybe he's actually right and is kind enough to record it so you can see it!) and then he can come back here to tell people he was wrong if he has the balls for it.

When is +R hitting consoles? We have patiently been waiting for over 6 months now :'( And the Vita release is kind of a slap in our face in my opinion.

Sorry, but I cannot resist. And no, I didn't miss the point. You're missing mine and you're reflecting that on me. Yes it is, you make a game fundamentally harder to play by adding to it's complexity. Every mechanic in GG is easy to learn, even slashbacks, even FRCs. The problem is applying them in a match and knowing when they are being applied to you; that is where the complexity comes from. That is why Kusoru was successful with his GV spam, because he was playing a game most people weren't even prepared for. For newer players yes, but like I've stated over and over: EXECUTION IS A NON-FACTOR IN HIGH LEVEL PLAY. IT ONLY AFFECTS NEWER PLAYERS, OFTEN IN A BAD WAY. High level play isn't nailing your FRCs or inputs. High level play is applying all the mechanics and outthinking your opponent(which presumably is also high level). And that by definition requires practice. So as stated earlier, noone is expecting newer players to step into the game as top level players, but the execution on some mechanics just isn't beneficial to newer players while in long term it doesn't even affect high level players. Execution is not a balancing mechanic, just for the earlier stated reasons: it doesn't affect high level players where balance is actually important.

*shakes head* VERY WRONG

No, lets be perfectly accurate about this: GG is extremely complex. It's unfair to say it isn't. BUT, while the initial difficulty(the initial barrier) is coming from execution(learning FRCs and stuff), the complexity of coming from the vast amount of options players have at their disposal. Even characters that have nothing are running around with some extremely powerful tools that allow them to be effective. This is not something you can ignore. And as experience grows, the execution barrier eventually completely dissappears. Which in turn implies that difficult to execute is only there to frustrate newer players. I mean, just go watch Japanese matchvids and see how often they miss their FRCs, heck even the 1 frame IAD combos are being done almost flawless these days; execution is not a valid tool to impose complexity on a game. So having FRCs replaced by an easier mechanic is just as effective as far as complexity goes, yet is far easier for people to get into.

The GG cast is too strong to be crossed over with other fighters. Primarily because the cast mostly has strengths and no real weaknesses.

I think we already covered this. There is no such thing as difficult to execute as players get better and better at the game. 1 frame FRCs are not difficult once you get the grasp for them and combos aren't even remotely hard when you've done them over a million times. The stronger players get, the less execution plays a factor in the game. Difficult execution does nothing but increase the height of the initial hump players have to get over. And for your example, first of all, dragon punching during offense is very unlikely to hit... Secondly, you can input the dragonpunch while you're doing the attack that is getting impact guarded and link it from the recovery. This can be done in any fighter, GG/BB is no exception to this.

Blocking is NOT strong vs Potemkin :D

Heh, with a little hackz, we can get the AVA or Borderlands shaders in and we have a different looking GG :D Or we can do vice versa of course!

In the NL SF4 is also starting to near extinction.

If anything, FRCs are not difficult, they are just muscle memory.

GG has always had an input buffer... It's why 360s work. The point as you admitted later is that people hate to lose. It tends to destroy their egos and pride, etc. And having 20 different options in almost every situation varying from different types of guard to different types of pokes/reversals does not make their time any easier. Teaching them the mechanics isn't that difficult in itself, but the development a player needs takes time and a LOT of effort. A LOT more than other games currently on the market. I don't want them to limit this freedom, but it's one of the major things making this game so hard for newcomers. The fact you have a crowd that loves the game and loves playing it is an amazing feat in itself. And as long as they are the least bit competitive I'm sure they will become good players in time. Regardless of how optimal or sloppy you think they are playing. #R netplay was available in 2006, my netplay might've been 2009, I don't even remember :D But it never changed anything besides the fact that people in remote locations could now play. I now have a car and can reach most people in about 30 minutes so the netplay has become a moot point for me as far as playing inside my own country is concerned. What always has been here since dustloop's inception and that has never gone away in gaming in general is the general notion you should play the game a certain 'optimal' way. I've had this notion for a while and if you remember, you'd see my opinion changing right before I got banned. Several years later you were able to see a much more developed order sol that perhaps is even closer to the Japanese than my wannabe self was when I was focusing on following the 'rules'. Let me remind people: there's only one rule: his meter needs to be empty before yours; how you do it is NOT important(as long as you're not resorting to physical violence or the sort). It's not the mechanics by themselves that make the game hard. It's the variety of them and their applications. Just by mixing up faultless with impact guarding you're able to generate unexpected throw openings, even against the stronger players. And it's VERY HARD to see those kind of nuances. Refinement can help, but like I said, the complexity isn't coming from execution, it's just the ability to get into people's heads that unparalleled in other games. Not even BB. I have no idea what you're talking about :D But the fact of the matter remains is that people need play time, they need to realize what is happening and they need to become master of their character before they can even think of winning games. And until they get there, they will have to be prepared to lose.

If you watched me vs N.O, you would've seen him spamming that slashback. Japanese players use it whenever they can, but it's quite easy to avoid getting slashbacked; which is why you rarely see them.

I cannot speak for the US but... In my experience, and here I'll touch upon Klaige's giant post as well, people cannot stand to lose over and over again. The last guy I trained, who ended up pretty much near my level, had to deal with 600 losses (almost in a row) before he was able to stand a chance. This is not something being about how good I am, but I will tell people that when they start playing this game, that they are going to be in for a LONG and unrewarding ride before they actually get to the point where they can have some real fun. And quite frankly, depending on the motivation of the player, you can almost immediately see whether they will even make it to that point the first time you play against them. And thereon it's only out of courtesy I recommend players other games. Now, my own opinion about the GG scene turning into a bunch of dicks against the mainstream fgc is because of SF4 getting released. The game is simple, was back in those days very random and allowed newer players to win much more easily than they should. Those players tend to come into the GG scene with an arrogance they shouldn't have and that arrogance is addressed almost immediately. Quite frankly, one of the reasons I am alone in the NL is because I know that most of the dutch fgc thinks they are more skilled than they really are and it's only with more recent results(such as Canada Cup :D) that this has started to sink in with them. Hecatom: I think you completely missed the point. To appeal to newer players you would have to make the game simpler and easier to understand. Should they do this? No. But refinedment in some areas wouldn't hurt either. And I know how this game works, thank you.

Well, part of the reason why most people are driven away from the game is exactly because there's too many options in the game to account for. And getting over that initial hump. So to appeal to casual players that would have to be removed and that means dumbing down the game. That said, I can understand about getting rid of FRC with the condition it's replaced by a similar system. There's no point to have exact frame execution tricks because as execution of players gets better, the difficulty just becomes more trivial. So replacing it with a simpler system that is a bit more idiot proof might not just help newer player, but make the veteran players more consistent as well. Slashbacks should stay though. When practiced properly, players are being prevented doing the same stuff over and over as they will get punished by this mechanic. It can create openings that some characters otherwise wouldn't have. It's like the 3s parry that helped balance out some of the idiotic priority on moves, but just a lot less random.

So the fireseal is now a giant sigaret lighter and Ky is now a transvestite... ok. It looks awesome, but lets wait and see:p

It's not really pressure, because pressure does not have the purpose to break someone's guard. Pressure can be used to initiate offense or continue offense. Ok, so yes, people can actually use their defensive tools and cause a break in your offense. It still doesn't mean you have to guess during offense, because when you decide to bait your opponent you are essentially giving away offense: your opponent can do something other than the reversal and initiate his offense or push for a neutral game. That said, doing stuff like that isn't necessarily a bad thing as long as you can move between states freely. But again, it's a free choice. Your opponent in contrast is FORCED to either guard high, low, dp, throw, etc and if he guesses right he has a chance to break your offense, if he guesses wrong you break his guard and you get the combo.

No, the definition I gave is very much in line with what was previously said. Except it was called an attempt to move from neutral to offense. But I didn't find that accurate enough, offense can be given by the opponent for lots of reasons and that doesn't imply you are rushing down. Assuming offense as I believe it to be is to explicitly move gamestate from neutral to your offense. Players doing this aren't bad, as there are a lot of successful rushdown players even in Japan. Now for my other definitions: mind the "forced to". When you're attacking you are not forced into a guessing game, you are forcing one onto your opponent, often by setups and mixups, and guessing is more or less optional. On defense, you are forced to take action to counter your opponent's setup/mixup, this is often done by proper guarding, but not limited to guarding. Other possible defensive actions are throwing, dragon punching and using your low jab. That is why the terms are so general, when on offense you have momentum and you're forcing the guessing on your opponent while on defense the opponent is doing that to you. The neutral game implies that neither is forcing the other person to take defensive action (even if such action can be desired). Knowing these situations and knowing in which one you are can help you when considering what tools to apply to the situation. You're not going to attempt a 5D when you're in a defensive state because your opponent is very likely to just hit you (because that was his intention anyway), while on offense your opponent is forced to react to you and then a 16-20 frame gap is much less of a problem.

If I'd define rushdown I'd go with this: Playerstates: Offense: Forcing opponent to guess and defend accordingly. (So this means you are attacking and are trying to set up your opponent for a hit) Defense: Being forced to guess and defend accordingly. (Pokes to interrupt, guard, uppercuts, etc) Neutral: Not forced or forcing to guess and defending accordingly. (Both players have freedom of movement and attack) Rushdown is the continuous assumption of offense. Regardless of actual state. This implies that range is NOT important. Chipp for example is perfectly capable of zoning(enforcing a distance) and rushing down at the same time. Venom on the other hand would not qualify as a suitable rushdown character as he's often unable to assume offense without consequence. It doesn't mean his offense isn't good, but he's not able to enforce offense or even keep it. This is the most accurate way I'd describe rushdown, I'm at work so it isn't very detailed but I can type something out later if interested.