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Huh? You do realize Killer Joker will catch backdashes, right? Even then, there's definitely better ways to beat backdash mashing (dash 2K, dash upcoin, etc). Counter hit 6P leads to a free MF loop, even at Level 1. 6P -> upcoin -> 3H 5/6H -> HMF -> coin xx dash 5H HMF x2 -> dash IAD KSDE It sounds like you're trying to chase Chipp, when the most reliable strategy is to force Chipp to come to you. You should be staying on the ground and making sure he respects High MF, upcoin and airthrow. Once he's on the ground, you're playing a 5K/2S kind of game, not 5K/f.S. One thing I will say is that when you do get Chipp blocking, you want to keep him there for as long as possible. If it means spending three or four coins to get him to the corner, then so be it. Cranking up his guard bar even a little will go a long way in increasing your random hit damage. 6P can be dealt with a number of ways. If 2K or 2S is losing, that means you're either timing it way too late or at a frame disadvantage where you shouldn't be pressing buttons, anyways. That being said, you can call out run up -> 6P with 2H, then RC in to damage. As far as 6P anti-air goes, you can doublejump -> j.H, DB or Unchou. As for teleports, it depends on how he uses them. At neutral, you can preemptively High MF, coin/upcoin or 5P if you have an idea where he's gonna end up. If you're talking about teleports being used in pressure, then your options are more limited, so long as he's not leaving huge gaps in his pressure. I don't recommend trying to beat teleports during pressure until you're more familiar with playing defense in those situations. It's more important to be able to block and get out of bad situations than it is to beat something that might not even work. From what I'm gathering, you need to work on your spacing. I suggest watching some matchvids and trying to recreate situations you observe in training mode. Improving your defense will come in due time, and improving your sense of spacing will actually help with that a lot, too. Keep at it!

If I'm not working (read: in the middle of the ocean), I'd definitely take leave for something like this.

JI Killer Joker is a tricky beast. It'll take some time to get it down, but even then, it's not always easy to judge the spacing in actual matches. First thing's first: the jump install. You're basically going to be doing JI KJ combos from either 5K 5H or 5K c.S 5H. For 5K 5H, you have to tap 8 right after you press K. If you don't get a jump cancel, that's fine, because you aren't supposed to (even on block). This is ideal for when you're using 5K at farther ranges (not max range, since KJ usually won't connect). When you're using 5K at a closer range (close enough to get c.S), it's best to do 5K c.S 5H. You get to JI c.S instead of 5K, it's a little easier to confirm, and the spacing is a bit easier to judge, too. So that's the JI. Now for the hard part. Judging the spacing for JI KJ is no small task. Just getting the Killer Joker to connect isn't enough; you have to worry about both the momentum after KJ and the hitbox of the character in question. Common problems include: - Too much momentum: Usually happens when you're too close to be doing KJ. Often causes a crossup mid-air, meaning you don't get a corner carry in the direction you were initially facing. - KJ not comboing: Happens when you're too far, causing KJ to either hit late or whiff entirely. Can also be caused by not hitting S during transport fast enough. - Whiffing air normals after KJ: This is kind of tricky because there's a lot of reasons this can happen. You can be pressing the button too late, not buffering it right (particularly in the case of j.H after KJ), the spacing could be wrong, etc. This is something that you have to take on a case by case basis, closely observe what you're doing, and try to figure out why it isn't working. If you ask me, the best way to learn KJ combos is to do the following combo (works on most, if not all characters): 2P 2P 5K 8 5H -> KJFRC -> j.SKSD Enkasu Why? Because it sets up the spacing for both KJ and Enkasu on its own. It gives you a control to reference for when you're struggling with combos using different spacing. That's really the issue I have with JI KJ on a personal level; I don't often find myself in situations where the spacing is optimal, or where I'll even be able to hit with KJ at all. Funnily enough, I find myself using it most after a Dash Jackhound, since it lets me keep Level 2 and it's pretty easy to judge the spacing. It's also burst safe, so long as they don't burst at 5H. One of these days, I'll make an entire thread dedicated to +R. Combos, upcoin, everything. I just need to find the time to write it and verify everything.

Anyways; in light of recent events, macros should, and probably will get banned. We would all love for ArcSys to patch this out but it probably isn't going to happen. Sorry pad players, it's not your fault, but you'll probably end up having to adapt to playing without a macro.

It's actually very relevant. Look no further than Klaige's post above about double butterfly locking down Potemkin. Having the execution to pull off certain techniques can entirely change the dynamic of a matchup. It seems to me like you're looking at character matchups and player skill as mutually exclusive, when in reality you cannot have one without the other. I honestly can't even make sense of what you're trying to say here. It's not a matter of whether or not the game uses actual seconds (which it obviously doesn't), I was just trying to point out that every aspect of the game, no matter how small, has an affect on how you play it.

Which is just as wrong an assertion. Refer to examples of charge characters, SPD's, etc. Try thinking of it like this: the only reason you can play a fighting game at all is because of the inputs you're giving the computer, right? So how do you figure the method through which you interact with the game has no effect on how the game is designed? Hell, there's primarily aesthetic decisions that affect the game tremendously. Do you really think the timer is set to 99 because ArcSys played a bunch of matches with different time limits and decided 99 seconds is just what the game needed?

At best, we prevent Justice from facerolling through tournaments CT Nu style. At worst, we alienate pad players who rely on macros. WHOEVER WINS, WE LOSE

Human error is an integral part of life, dude. I think it's funny that you continuously deny the role of execution. Especially because I know firsthand that even at the highest levels of play, execution matters a whole hell of a lot. I've played against two of the best Anji players in Japan. In most aspects, they are roughly of equal (and very high) skill. However, I can beat one of those Anji players a lot more than the other. Why is that, you may wonder? Because one of those Anji players consistently does optimal damage combos, and one of them doesn't. I've asked other players their opinion on these two players as well, and their sentiment echoes mine. Some even think that the Anji player with lower execution has better decision making skills, but will still point to his lackluster damage output as his weakness. Not necessarily pertinent to the subject of banning glitches that are very obviously gamebreaking, but food for thought.

Five years ago, this wouldn't have even been a discussion. Most people would have immediately recognized the game breaking ramifications of this and agreed to ban macros. Pad players would've had to learn to live without macros (as I did for my first year or so of playing Guilty Gear), but the community would have been better off for it. I don't want to sound like I'm pulling the old man card (I'm still too young for that :P), but goddamn has this community become spoiled in recent years. Ask yourselves: if this game had negedge autofire in the arcade version, do you think it'd be the same game it is today? As an aside, it really isn't that hard to FRC on pad without a macro. I should know, since I learned the game on pad, and currently practice +R on my Vita daily. I can do most things I can do on stick with minimal practice.

Wish I could've been there, but I am in Japan, after all. What happens to Dogfights now? I think we exhausted every non-house venue with our late night poverty shenanigans.

I'm actually quite confident that Justice will be winning American tournaments whether this gets banned or not.

IAD is 956/754 in Guilty. So make sure you're doing the right input first. Past that, it's just timing. You want to buffer the dash input right before the recovery on the coin ends, then IAD -> j.K in one swift motion. From the coin, your input should be: 236H xx 66956 K Remember that you have to wait until the airdash is complete before you can get j.K out.

AC or +R? In AC, it's not always going to be possible to recoin. In +R, you can probably recoin 2-3 times if you really want to. As for coin after throw, it doesn't work on all characters. Off the top of my head, it won't work on Baiken, Millia or Dizzy (perhaps ABA too?). Throw has more untech time in +R though.

The things you realize right after you post. So the CPU cheating with Slashback is still a mystery.

Yes. I mean, if you all feel it's necessary to keep macros for pad players, then by all means. Just don't be surprised when people find even more ways to exploit this and turn the game in to something it isn't. Come to think of it, couldn't you use this to mash Slashback? Like, maybe this is how the CPU cheats with Slashbacking.

Running +R on actual arcade hardware is impossible for obvious reasons; running the console ports on cabinets is highly impractical. I think you misunderstand the point of using the arcade as a standard. It's not about replicating the experience 100% (since that's impossible without using the actual arcade hardware), rather coming as close as possible. There are some allowances that have to be made, obviously. Letting people play on pad is one of them, since not everyone can afford a stick (I know I was in that boat for a long time), nor does everyone want to play on stick. That, and it's generally considered a disadvantage, anyways. Macros... well, they weren't much of an issue until now. They do still lag by 1f which makes them undesirable for FRC's, but now we have to take in to account that they autofire negative edge. In light of this discovery, I'm for banning them, but I'm not really part of the US tournament scene anymore so

This is pretty silly, lol. If it doesn't get fixed at some point, it really should be banned. This is some GameShark shit, and you all know it.

I'd be careful with using Mist Finers. It's true that a counter hit mid or low Level 1 is pretty sweet, but Justice can backdash them pretty easily. Then you're back to the missile dodging game, which is where you're most liable to lose. Any time I say "walk forward", that's what I mean. I should keep in mind that "obvious" things like this may not occur to people who are less familiar with the game. Thanks for clarifying, yet again.

Justice is a strange matchup. It'll change your entire concept of what's safe and what isn't. First and foremost, the neutral game. Obviously, Justice can shoot missiles. This is a problem for you, but it's actually not as bad as it may seem at first. You basically have three ways of dealing with missiles: - Superjump (then DB FRC/Unchou/whatever once you get right above Justice) - (Dash) Jump FD, block, then double jump/AD/land - Walk forward (Don't wavedash) Of these options, walking forward is the safest; and, depending on the order the Justice player detonates the missiles, can lead to the highest reward. But, most Justice players will know better than to just let you walk towards them. That's why you'll have to jump a lot of the time. Superjumping is a tempting option (and it does work pretty well for the most part), but be careful of getting too reliant on it; a good Justice will catch on and start detonating missiles before you can get above her and anti-air you. That's why you have to vary your approaches. Doing a normal jump (with the momentum of a dash, whenever possible) kind of gives you the best of both worlds. You can cover a lot of ground in a short amount of time, and sometimes you'll even avoid the low/mid missiles altogether. If you block a missile outside of her anti-air range, you'll get pushed back a bit, but you can either stay in the air by doublejumping/airdashing, or you can land and walk forward/block. I do advise against normal jumping once you're in her anti-air range, though. At that point, you're playing a different game, so you're better off trying to force her into the corner. Once you get Justice cornered is when things get really interesting. She has a lot of ways to get out of pressure in general, and this matchup is no exception. Don't autopilot your blockstrings, because she'll either crack counter, use a move with startup invincibility, or jump out and make you sad. You really have to be patient against her. The good news is that she's relatively easy to tick throw (though most Justice players I've faced have pretty much based their defensive game on avoiding throws, so you can't autopilot that, either), and when you use the upcoin correctly ("correctly" being the key word here), you can really shut down a lot of options. It's hard to say if either character really has an advantage. The neutral game feels pretty much even, and both characters have pretty adequate pressure. Justice has better defensive options, but Johnny hits way harder. If I had to choose, I'd give Johnny the slight advantage, though it's pretty hard for both characters, honestly.

For what it's worth, I feel that all summons except the sword have gotten a bit easier to deal with. Once he gets the sword though, there isn't much you can do. You really do have to find any way out you can, because you don't want to be blocking for very long. Unchou kind of helps if you can get close enough to land it, since it does consistently beat the sword DP. Be careful with throwing coins (up or horizontal) though because Zappa has a number of ways he can bait that with any summon (run under, block and have the dog hit you during recovery, whatever). Not too much else to say, really.

Does anyone know for sure what changes were made to puffball and Ryuujin? I play Johnny, and the counter pokes I used in AC (2S and 6P, respectively) don't seem to work anymore. I just wanna be sure that either those moves have changed to beat those now, or that I'm being a scrub and not pressing the buttons hard enough.

IB'ng Stunedge? Slashback that shit! Any Ky player with a brain will stop throwing fireballs real quick. From a fundamental standpoint, this matchup is pretty similar to before, though I'm actually inclined to give Johnny the slight advantage now. Upcoin really wrecks Ky's shit at neutral and it makes Johnny that much more threatening in the corner. Speaking of the corner, one of my new favorite things to do for oki (especially against Ky) is this: upcoin -> meaty 2K xx 3HS. If he mashes DP he's done, and if he blocks you can now gatling into 6HS, or just Mist Cancel. The spacing has to be right for this to work, though (approximately 2K max range). Everything Tsukahara said is more or less correct (though JO 6P will trade with f.S most of the time; still totally workable though since you can confirm in to Jackhound), but start finding ways to utilize the upcoin at neutral, too. I use it to read Stun Dipper, punish jump in attempts (such as after air SE FRC), and just as an insurance policy at mid-far range to make sure he doesn't try anything dumb. It's sort of DC style, but it works when used correctly.

It's not working for me, either. Says something about the servers version not matching mine, and entering the Admin CP and yadda yadda.

Eddie is much more tame than he was in AC. He doesn't hit as hard in general, and he doesn't get as much of an advantage from a knockdown anymore. In AC, every time Eddie scored a knockdown he could set up a 50-50, which led into another 50-50. In +R, Eddie has to work a lot harder to knock you down, and once he does, he's usually going to have to have you block a bit (giving you a chance to escape) before you have to start guessing. He might look pretty similar to the untrained eye, but that's just because he still has strong pressure. The difference is that now you aren't liable to lose the match as soon as he hits you, nor are you forced to guess nonstop like in AC. I wouldn't say nobody plays him anymore, but there's definitely fewer Eddie players now. That just comes with the territory when a new game comes out.

I was the one who initially filled out Johnny, Order-Sol, and Zappa's matchups. They're based on experience (I play all three, OS and ZA as subs obviously) and what I've observed at Mikado and various other arcades. It seems that someone's already changed a few things I put in there, but whatever. I wouldn't put too much stock in any matchup chart for this game to be honest, since most matchups are about even (though to touch on Star-Demon's post above, that is not justification for just saying "WELL IT'S EVEN" or "GAME IS BALANCED") and the bad matchups are quite obviously bad.