TheRealBobMan

If there's information on how much tension you lose when you FD a move, can that get translated and included as well? No one I've asked seems to know. They usually say to check the Japanese wiki. *Sigh*

I wonder how no one ever noticed this before considering that with a completely full guard bar, you only get 4 counter hits. That should point out the inconsistencies right off the bat. I figure that the discrepancies in GB+/- when flashing are a separate issue from guard balance. Can you check if the Guard Balance modifier applies to GB- as well as GB+? It'd be strange to find out that characters like Dizzy have damage scale down against them faster. Would be useful for knowing when to combo into super for that unburstable finish attempt, or some form of burst bait because it just happens to do more damage for less meter while still letting you punish the burst for the win, since supers scale faster than other moves. We should also find some way to accurately measure what "guard recovery" is, so that we'll have more information than "usual", which tells us nothing. Someone with recording equipment would have to do this from training mode so that the data will be useable (I'd suggest PC with frapps but we can't get a consistent starting point without training mode). I guess a starting point is to record how many frames it takes for the GB to recover to neutral from full across all characters.

The magic wand tool is actually pretty crappy. If you have photoshop, use the pen tool to draw a path around the part you want to keep. Cut into the image from where the red line is, and then make a selection based on the path. You'll get the little "marching ants" to signify that you highlighted the part you drew a path around. Feather it 1 pixel, then hit the mask button. You can then use a softened brush (pure black to hide, use white to reveal) and draw on the mask if you need to edit that further, but if you do it right, you can get a really good outline just using the pen tool. *Edit* Actually, due to the type of image you're working with, you might not need to feather, so use your judgement. If you feather the edge it'll look softer, which might not be what you want (it'll keep it from looking like a cutout when you stick it on a background, but that applies more for photo edits and not cutting out drawn images). Also, the amount you would feather depends on the dpi. Since this is a web based image, I'm assuming it's 72dpi, so 0.5 to 1 pixel is good. If you have a png file or something with a higher dpi, you might go as far as 2-3 pixels for the feather, though generally 1-2 will fit most needs.

Haha, it's all good dude. : )

Blacklight Babe. I should have it too, I just want it to be in the game. I like it better than I-No's current theme, though the version from Sound Alive is a little better and I'd be happy with that as well.

Pestilence, I uh.... 5K is jump cancelable. How else would 5K > HCL work? You have to jump install it... remember? Maybe you should work on those Stroke(S) > 5K > j.S corner combos that were posted a few months back so you'll have a reason to do anything besides dash out of 5K? Or maybe you should go to bed early or take a few days off. @MoogleKing: So anyway, Pdive (Sultry Performance with the Punch button) can cancel into a dash or special move after frame 9 of the bouncing part after it hits or is blocked. This is the one you see used in combos, usually involving j.S > j.H > Pdive > dash > j.H > Pdive > Kdive. For starting execution practice, I liked to do this corner combo: 6P > 5H > j.H > Pdive > dash > j.H > FFVCL > c.S > follow ups. Linking j.H out of Pdive is more difficult than j.S, so practicing that is more useful (you'll be able to link the j.S for sure if you can get the j.H). Don't ever expect to use that combo in a real match though, since you generally wont be right up on someone's nuts in the corner and land a 6P starter. If you can already do other combos well forget I even mentioned it. For K or S, the only option would be to RC, then dash. For the H version, you could RC and dash, or wait for the FRC and dash after that. In any of these cases, you'll need to still have your dash. The FB version (using the Dust button) can currently be held and canceled before it starts, and you can dash out of that, or you can wait until you recover and dash. In +R, you'll be able to cancel it at any time between frames 6 and 60, so you could start it, cancel it, and dash, or hit them anywhere from 1-5 times with it before canceling into your dash. In either case, this move gives you back your jump options, so you'll be able to do this even if you already used your airdash! It's going to be ****ing awesome since it's still untechable for 60 frames. Even with the 80% Forced Prorate, I think you get more damage than before by canceling after the first hit into dash > FFVCL > VCL > c.S > VCL > c.S > whatever. Those first 4 hits would be doing 14 damage or whatever in AC, but in +R you replace them with 36, 36, 25, 36 (accounting for the proration). Even when you don't do this because you're not in the corner, the damage was buffed to 20 per hit, so it's still better than before. Hope that helps.

Sounds like an Oglaf comic. I want I-No's Korean #R theme.

Huh, I'll have to look at that next time I get the chance. Makes a lot more sense than having the same name as her mom's rotating laser move and not actually using a laser. She's still creating a giant gunflame though. I mean, she stops firing the laser at some point, but the flames keep going right? *Edit* It also has a FRC point, just like gunflame. She was called a clone of Justice in Overture and AC? Man, I need to play Story mode.

Awesome, thanks.

They should have given her FB Sidewinder in +R. I mean, except for ABA, the three of them are the only characters with Install Supers (as of Justice getting one in +R). Though Necro Install probably barely counts since she got that when she got Necro. Could anyone give any details on that part of the story since I missed it? She was born with Undine, but got Necro somewhere else... what's up with that? Also, she has Justice's f.S, so why doesn't she get one of Sol's normals? : ( Her j.K looks close to his j.H, but that's a huuuuuuge stretch of the imagination.

I thought there was a voice set where Dizzy calls him daddy or father either when the round starts or when she gets KO'd. *Shrug* So, who noticed that Dizzy's Imperial Ray is a giant Gunflame?

The formula doesn't explain if it's base damage. I'm want to assume it is since stun decays per hit based on which hit it is in the combo, meaning it's unnecessary for proration and scaling to apply to stun damage. I'll probably have to test it myself later if no one can confirm it. Also, there's a discrepancy in the wiki. The frame data table shows Pot's 6H as having a 1.5X Dizzy modifier, but his main page and the example on the Stun Formula page don't mention it.

So by this point in the story, Ky is aware that his wife is Sol's daughter, right? ****ing Ky man. "I don't like Sol, so I'ma knock up his daughter and make him raise the kid. I, meanwhile, will become king."

Hey, how does proration apply to stun damage? I know that stun damage is derived from damage the move deals, along with other factors like stun modifiers on moves like May's/Eddie's 6P and counter hits, but I remember hearing that Pot can stun some characters off of a Gold Burst, which prorates damage really steeply. Maybe that's untrue, but if it works, it'd be good to know about.

You can totally hit Pot out of j.D if you SB it on the ground, but it wont be an anti-air. He lands (and goes into landing recovery) before 5P goes active after a SB. And yeah, there are tons of ways to punish j.D, so long as you don't try to beat it outright. Dat ass even beats Volcanic Viper. Jump IB > throw is probably the most reliable thing you can do to punish j.D. SB > punish would lead to a lot more damage if you're willing to take the risk though. The thing that's really weird about the Hdive example is that it's not active until 3 frames after you release, so if you release during the flash, it isn't active for 3 frames after that, during which time HPB should kick your ass. It just doesn't. *Shrug*

When used on oki, the knocked down player would wake up into the throw-invul move hitting meaty, so an attempt at even a fast 5/6H would get CH because they'd be waking up into a hitbox without blocking or being invincible. When not in an oki situation, the speed would be a definite factor though. I think Millia's 5H is frame 6, so 4H would work in that situation since it'll fail the throw but start 5H fast enough move to beat the 6K. You know, assuming they started at around the same time.

So, I noticed two things while messing around in training mode. 1. If Pot does j.D and you slashback it on the ground, he lands before the SB recovers, so you'll get a grounded punish. You wont be able to SB > Anti-Air 5P > air combo. You'll get a better punish than throw, but it's still SB, which is high risk. Anyway, I-No's hitbox ends at the tip of her hat, so watch for that when you try to IB/SB his ass. It's a shame you can't do flashy SB > 5P > c.S > VCL > 6FRC6 > FFVCL U-Zen combos to punish, but whatever. 2. Hdive goes active 3 frames after you release the button if you hold it. Whats really odd is that if you TK it in Pot's face and hold it, then have him start HPB, and release H during the super flash, you'll hit him out of it. Now, the hitbox on your attack should reach his knees, and while he's invincible until the flash, it's only above the waist after. The weird thing is that HPB is supposed to go active the frame after the flash, according to his frame data anyway. So... if you release Hdive during the flash, you should go active 3 frames after that, which means you should get thrown, but for whatever reason you don't. So uh... we have a really silly HPB bait, and somewhere some information might be wrong?

Ok, so this is the same thing I was complaining about. How many of you guys have heard of Sirlin's Yomi? It's a fighting game in a card game format. Because of its design, it emphasizes certain skills more than others (and he made other games that emphasize other skills from fighters). Combat is determined as follows: Each player puts a card face down, so their actions are double blind (sort of like players throwing out attacks in fighting games while being unable to tell what the other guy did for around 12 frames minimum, which is too late for moves that are faster than that). Once both cards are down, they get flipped so you can determine what happened. Attacks beat throws, throws beat block and dodge, and block and dodge beat attacking. When both attack or throw, the faster one wins, and in speed ties, attacks trade, and throws break (nothing happens). Spacing and/or footsies does not exist in this game because there is no way to measure position. Execution exists on the level of "can you put a card on the table without setting the table on fire". Hitconfirming does not exist since you're not operating under a "do this in time or you **** up" constraint. Pressure, as we defined it in this thread, exists in this game. You can knock the other guy down to prevent him from dodging and weaken the effectiveness of blocking on the next turn, so you gain a situational advantage. You can also check out the discard piles at any time and try to count cards - if your opponent has 4 DP cards (speed 0 attacks - so attacks that beat all other attacks) and all of them are in the discard pile, you have the advantage in knowing they can't reversal DP. One character has the ability to look at the other player's hand, which is a huge situational advantage. "You have no blocks/dodges right now? Good thing I have 3 reversal DP cards." It's still very different from real-time pressure. And "varying" pressure doesn't really exist. There are multiple ways to put pressure on the opponent in other fighting games, via positioning, frame advantage, knockdown, etc, but you really only have the ability to knock them down as tangible pressure here, so while you can repeatedly knock down to remain at a situational advantage, you can only really vary what card you place face down. Figuring out that their options are restricted by a shitty hand is a situational advantage since they get/lose cards every turn (so it's technically pressure as we defined it), but it's usually not something forced on them. It's also totally possible to loop throws when you're a grappler character and your opponent has burned his hand on a combo, because then he/she can't combo to do any real damage when attacking to beat your throw (no cards left to combo with), and can't get more cards by blocking because blocking will always lose to throws. This really only works because of this game's mechanics because in other fighters you can use all of your moves all the time. You also don't really vary between either of these methods of pressure because the latter is situational, and they operate independently of each other. --- These are good answers, but they sort of fall short of what I'm looking for, because they don't always apply. I hate semantics (and so I sort of hate this thread to be honest), so I don't want to get into a big "now we need to define 'fighting game' so we know what words apply to just this definition we agreed on, so we can then define those words and blah blah blah" argument. The good part of this thread is that we think about these ideas more and try to refine them to their simplest points. Thinking of pressure as trying to remain at a situational advantage is probably more useful than thinking of pressure as using moves with frame advantage, because you think of different ways to achieve that situational advantage. You'll further understand that psychological pressure you put people in when you, for example, play Ky and stay in his "rainbow of lameness" position relative to your opponent where just about anything he does beats your opponent's hitboxes, even if you're not actively attacking or filling the screen with CSE and j.214D at every possible moment. I want to call out "varying pressure" because I think you really meant being unpredictable. You don't want to attempt to stay in situational advantage via the same actions because they'll use actions that remove your situational advantage. Perhaps you meant "playing with variance in one's actions while attempting to maintain a situational advantage", which is pretty solid. I also want to call out "use of game mechanics". If you're not using the game's mechanics, you're probably not actually playing the game. This answer isn't wrong... you can't really win a game if you're not playing it. It's like my example of playing poker but not knowing the hands, except that not using mechanics would be like playing poker with everyone's cards face-up all the time. I think that both of these answers fit the "cached thought" problem I brought up with my post. There's little point in this exercise where we try to figure out definitions for these terms if we're not going to update our priors with the new information and attempt to be more specific when we answer questions. I like that "understanding the neutral game" answer. It brings up how players respond to having a game state in which there is no advantage to either side, which then brings up general game states in which there is advantage. Knowing the difference seems like an important and fundamental skill, so discussing this seems like a good idea. Anyone care to elaborate?

How about "fundamentals"? I hear this word thrown around a lot, to the point where I don't even know what it means anymore. I hear people talking about how ____ game that isn't a fighting game has "fundamentals", but I get the feeling they're using the term as a cached thought - they don't know wtf they're talking about, but they're saying it because they feel like that's what they're supposed to say or what their audience should hear. I'm assuming it's a skill set that's the extreme basics of fighting games. Something so elementary it will apply to just about all fighting games, though they will possibly apply to any type of game, including sports and board games and anything we haven't yet invented or classified as a game yet. The skills you need to know thoroughly to compete, but aren't specific to mechanics that are unique among competitions. That is, knowing your FRCs isn't part of fundamentals, but learning how to hit the buttons at a precise moment such that it is possible for you to FRC would be fundamental. Not knowing the optimal form to throw a football, but having the general motor skill to throw a ball. The only exception to "not specific" would be knowing the rules to the game you're playing. Not being able to count cards effectively for optimal statistical advantage playing poker, but knowing the hands well enough to know that it's probably safe to bet on a straight flush. I mean, if you're playing poker and you don't know what the hands are, it's like mashing buttons your first time playing any video game, so that doesn't really count. Am I totally backwards with what I think people are talking about? I get the feeling that if I ask someone they'll just regurgitate "you gotta know your mixup and your blocking and your combos". But then I hear this word used for games like Catherine, which have competitive modes, but don't have mixup or blocking or combos. Moving a sequence of blocks to slow the other guy down might be similar to a combo, but it's different in function, execution, and the amount of player interaction. So uh... discuss.

Considering that the Vita version is out, I don't want to say that it's "safe" to assume they're working on the netplay, but that looks extremely likely. That's the one thing that's missing from the Vita version anyway...

Perhaps Scorpion needs a Millia costume?

So... they want him banned for having a teleport crossup? What's so strong about that? I looked up a video and only saw him appearing on the other side of the opponent. Can he warp in front too, like Chipp? What's this about holding down to block? Hearing about that seems more important.

I don't play this game. What is this trait thing you guys are mentioning?

You could maybe 2366S > PKH to do a dash-in Sdisc from neutral that cancels on startup. Not sure if that'd work, but you'd essentially wavedash a short distance for 25% and prorated meter gain. Otherwise... the point is to look awesome, or if you're doing this with Jam's 2D and the proper voice set, to be extremely annoying when you spam it. HAI HAI HAI HAI HAI

Well, you're most likely going to use that FRC by gatling Sdisc out of a normal, so practice doing things like '2K > Sdisc > FRC' and '6H > Sdisc > frc'. I think you'll be using it out of lvl 4 and 5 moves (like 5/6H) to keep pressure going (6frc6 to dash out of it), and it works out of other moves like c.S for tick throws. When you're buffering it out of a normal like that, you have more time after the input to do the frc since the input is buffered and you have to wait for the move to start. Otherwise, you'll have to do the input like 236S and immediately hit PKH while releasing S so you don't accidentally go into IK mode. That'll probably be the most consistent way to do it.