TheRealBobMan

The very first one in the first post under HCL Combos. It doesn't specify to Hover Dash in or get a jump install somehow before going into the 2K. So uh... I shouldn't learn basic gatlings if I decide to switch to Eddie. That limits my options. I should immediately begin learning the timing for his various unblockables, and **** doing damage when I actually get one of them to work, right? Everyone starts somewhere. I learned to 6FRC6 by practicing with ground throw, and then I applied that to the 6P > 5H > HCL setup. After I got that working, I started doing it from j.S > j.H > HCL > airdash > j.H > Sdive > follow up. From there I learned 5K > HCL. Now I'm learning HD > 2S > HCL, VLC > FRC > Sdive > follow ups, and other stuff. 5K > HCL is hugely important, but it's hard. People get frustrated and quit. If you can measure your progress by doing something simpler but easier, it's easier to stay motivated.

I wanted to post something earlier, but I ran out of lunch break. I'm also about to run out of my current break, so I have to be brief. That first combo on Pot shows 2K > 2S > HCL > airdash. That's not possible without carrying a jump install from either dashing in, or getting it somewhere else, since 2K and 2S are not jump cancelable. Also, I want to point out that you get way more damage off of naked 2S, since it doesn't prorate 75%. It's harder to do, but you can combo off of it from about 1/3 screen. It's also effective to do 2P > 2S after you've done a bunch of tick throws. Basically, you get them to want to jump or reversal out, and then you hit them low while they're not holding downback. It also makes it easier to do since you have more time to buffer that way. But you should probably start by learning 6P > 5H > HCL > follow ups, because you can jump out of the 5H a little and make the FRC > airdash easier. After that, learn 5K jump install HCL, since it gives you so many more options to do damage.

That wont stop me from learning better burst-bait combos. Those 10% will be the people I play with regularly anyway. Hopefully.

Does I-No have any really effective burst-bait combos? I've been thinking of the things she'll be able to do with her updated FBdive, but what does she have right now? I know that at certain ranges f.S is effective since she'll lean away from the burst hitbox, and I know she can generally throw in an extra 5P or two before going airborne to fish for a burst, but what else works? Is psycho crusher burst safe when you're juggling them just off of your hitbox, like when doing loops to build meter? Seems like they would be high enough that the burst would go active way above I-No's head and whiff. There will always be gaps they can burst out of, but the more I work with I-No, the more I feel that she's really good at burst baits. I just haven't been experimenting with them since I'm still working on HCL FRC stuff when I have time to practice.

Thanks for the tip. Man, it feels good making time to practice. So what if I only shower every other day now?

Any tips on getting better at inputting things like anti-air poke (5P or 6P) > c.S > VCL > 6FRC6 > VCL (backwards input)? I can get the VCL > 6FRC6 > c.S > VCL on Chipp, but I need to get better at this without c.S in there. That ****s things up against other characters. Then again, that might be because I'm doing 6P > c.S to practice, though I imagine they'll be higher if I actually anti-air. *edit* Also, does I-No have any frametraps? It's generally not what she wants to do, though some people let me get away with stuff into STBT(S) for CH, so I figure it might be effective to learn a few legitimate frametraps and not stupid ones that people shouldn't be falling for. Something that I can condition, you know? So I've been working on my 2S > HCL > 6FRC6, and that got me thinking about what I do when I get in. >Throw 2P > | >2S > HCL Not a frametrap unless they IB the 2P, but if they try to jump out to beat a throw, 2S works. If they try to DP the throw, they're not holding downback and 2S works. What about something silly off of 2H? That's +6, so I figure it'd be great for this. Problem is that it pushes you out too far to go for a throw. 2P > 2H leaves a 1-frame gap, so I can run an additional "what is this guy trying to do now?" sort of thing, that generally wouldn't be as good as the 2S/Throw mixup, but if I can get something awesome out of it, why not? There's a refractory period in the brain of some substantial amount of time (I think it was 380 milliseconds, but I'll have to double check that) when people get distracted, and if I condition throw/2S off my 2P well enough, going into 2H should be safe and could lead to something useful. I mean, if I do 2H > Fortissimo, that takes 7 frames to go active, and 2H is +6 without being jump cancelable. In total it takes us 10-11 frames to do TK fortissimo, and they're going to watch the full recovery animation, so they'll expect a chance to get out or some sort of shenanigans. Fortissimo sounds like a decent idea because of the screen/input freeze. If someone without VV were to try to DP there, I'm pretty sure I-No would recover in time to block and punish. Same against most 6Ps I think, and it would definitely be safe against arrogant "I'm going to gold burst out of your frametrap" tactics too. Anyone have any tricks they use or any ideas here?

Eh, I should clarify by saying you're using your jump options. It's not really a waste. When you jump you either get a double jump or an airdash. If you use one of them you wont have the option to use it later. If you cancel a move into a jump, but then cancel into a move before the jump happens (jump install), your jump options are still there if you go airborne via a move like HCL, which normally wouldn't give you those options. If you've used the jump options before you land into something that goes into HCL, you'll have to get them again via another JI. And apparently JI's hold for a very long time as long as you don't go neutral. I think you can do empty jump > landing 2S > recover > 6H > recover > HCL > 6FRC6 and it'll work even if you're not actually hitting anything, assuming you went into the next move as fast as possible, and assuming you didn't just TK the HCL at the end.

Well, you're getting your jump options off of HD, but wasting them with the AD, so it's like there's no install left, if that makes sense. If you were to HD > j.H (whiff) > 2P > 2S (bait a tick-throw jump out) > HCL, you'd have the JI and could 6FRC6, assuming you didn't return to neutral when going from the whiffed j.H to 2P. You're probably still getting the 6FRC6 to work because your 632146K input out of the 5H isn't perfectly clean and you're accidentally JI'ing at that spot. What's funny about that is that with this setup is that you should be able to do the TK version off of the 5H if I'm not mistaken. Might need a 6P in there though to get them airborne. The TK version is more lenient, so I guess use that where applicable? And that's one of the things I'm looking forward to about +R I-No. If we get 2 airdashes, even if we use one for pressure, the other should still be saved right? So it's possible to do something like note > 66956 j.K > j.S > j.H (whiff) > 2P > 2S > HCL 6FRC6 > combo off of that mixup option.

He was the first if I remember right. Sol is probably the oldest character next to Slayer (who beats him by quite a bit), so no need for him to time travel. That's all Axl and I-No right? So... does I-No know about Queen too?

You don't need to prove to the world that you spend time in training mode. What matters is: How frequently are you able to make time for it? An hour a day 5 days a week is probably better than 5 hours on Saturday every week. What are you practicing? Maybe you're practicing things that honestly wont make as much of a difference as other skills will for your current skill level. How are you practicing? Are you only practicing against the same character? Do you change dummies/opponents too frequently to really get things down? You play Baiken right?

I think I played you on Friday night for like 2 games? I'll hopefully be online a bit more in the coming week before I start up work, and we can play a bunch then. I'm not great, and I don't know the I-No ditto matchup at all. Still, it's better than not playing. You're in the PSN chat right?

It's hard even on pad at times. I used to play pad when I played Chipp, and doing 5H > j.P for an alpha blade loop was still difficult, not counting any controller interface issues, because you have to time the jump out of the 5H, the dash as early as possible, and the IAD'd move (in your case j.K) as fast as possible without going so fast that the move doesn't come out because of airdash startup frames. Timing the jump isn't really an issue, but when you factor that you essentially need a double tap, it takes some effort to find the right rhythm there. Then, you need to delay your aerial just enough that it actually comes out, but get it faster and faster until it actually combos. And now you're adding in the difficulty of using stick. I'm actually working on IAD combos with I-No now, because 6P > 5H > IAD j.K > j.S > FF VCL is effective on Baiken, and it took maybe 30 minutes of practice before I could get it. Now I've got it maybe 50% of the time, but it's still not muscle memory, so I drop it when I'm not thinking about the timing. I suggest working on one direction for a solid amount of time before switching, and then spending an equal amount of time facing the other way. Priority should be on your actual stick input first, if you can't get IADs to come out quickly enough, like when you're facing right. The trick there is that, while I don't know what grip you use to hold a stick, you can do double tapping facing the left really easily with your thumb. Facing right, you need to use more of your wrist or arm. I think I reposition my hand when I IAD facing right, so that I don't have to move more than my wrist, but I do it unconsciously so I can't really be specific with that. Do your aerials later than you think you have to, and if you drop the input, do them even later. It's probably easier to speed up your timing in slight increments than to try to slow it down. You're doing the IAD input as 956 right?

You guys rock! Thanks for finding that!

Ok, so, that wasn't it. The one I'm thinking of has more spanking in it. It's also exclusively a Chipp combo video if I remember right. There's also a combo in it that does like 20% damage to Millia and almost fills her tension from empty, and I think there was a combo looping Alpha Blade frcs so that it looks like the Zensai Rouga super in reverse (going down instead of up). But this is a damn good find since the Slayer on Zappa combo at 1:13 actually punishes a gold burst by giving him back his burst! Wow, another guts 5 character. Also, I didn't know that they were nerfing I-No's guts too. It's crazy to think how good her FBs, that extra airdash, and jump canceling Stroke(H) are, if they put prorates on ****ing everything, nerfed her airthrow range, and even dropped her guts. Then again, being able to chancel her FBdive at any time seems like total BS, and that's before even considering that it gives her back jump options. So, back on topic, I-No's guts rating in the table does not accurately reflect the changes mentioned on the rightmost column. All of the other characters' stats are correct.

If I could find it, I would link that silly Chipp combo video that has him punish May's gold burst with a combo that does like 15% damage and gives her back her burst. I think it's that one with the random scenes of guys wearing sumo garments spanking each other? Anyone have the link?

It's not like the Melee community is responding well to the idea, but some people have put it out there. I heard about it from people that were complaining about those people. I'm sure that as a whole, the Smash community isn't against breast cancer research. It's more that a lot of the players in the community are in it for the money, so spending money on a failed attempt to get Smash to Evo to try to win money is a waste for them. It's a shitty mentality, but they're not bad people. Although some of them use "rape" as a synonym for awesome... *sigh* And I do agree that the Evo staff should publish the donation numbers. I get the feeling they're doing this to try and get people to donate more to charity, by preventing thoughts along the lines of "this game is winning by so much anyway that I shouldn't waste money supporting the game I want". It's a decent way to raise money for breast cancer, but not the best way for them to pick the last game for their tournament lineup. If I'm right about them approaching the donation fund from that angle, perhaps they should publish the numbers weekly or every 3 days or something (I'd push for daily if not constantly, assuming it's not a hassle to do). We get accountability, and anticipation tends to have a hype building effect that might be beneficial here. You know, while I'd consider Melee a bad game because of some silly mechanics, I find it extremely fun, and still a better game than SFxT. I've heard that recently, the turnout for P4A has been really bad (like 4 people showing up to a regional bad), so I feel like Melee deserves a spot as least as much as P4A, even if I think other games deserve a spot more. Now that I'm thinking about it... in this economy, it sort of sucks that they'd get players to spend money to get their favorite game to Evo, when they'd have to save money to be able to afford the trip to Evo to play it there. Maybe they should be donating any venue fee revenue that's not gobbled up by the overhead costs instead of doing this? "Your game gets picked if enough people sign up to play it, and we donate part of the venue fee!" Seems like less of a risk of having an event that few people enter, since people that are actually planning on going would be the ones putting in the money. Also, with this setup, a majority of the entrants could just be in it for the prize money and not even belong to the community that funded getting the game to Evo in the first place. They could just be there, and happen to have enough money to enter another event that has few sign-ups, especially if it means a shot at a big prize. That would be pretty bad for an event like that wouldn't it? I don't know what's worse: "Smash community split: Brawl makes it to Evo despite huge Melee support - only 30 entrants actually show up", or "Justin Wong wins MLP at Evo even though it was his first time playing and he was competing against the development team."

It's silly that SFxT is guaranteed a spot, but GGAC+R, Skullgirls, and Melee have to compete with each other for a spot. I thought everyone boycotted SFxT? @Osuna: There's a thread on smashboards where a few Melee players have suggested that they make a paypal or some online fund that they can all collectively donate into first, and if it looks like Melee wont win, they'll refund everyone's money.

@EdWORLD and bizzaro: Hey, mind if I add you guys then? I'm in Glendale, so the connection will hopefully be good (or at least better than 1/2 of what I run into). I just got laid off, so I'll have plenty of time to play GG for a while.

Try to FD and push her out so that the last normal in her blockstring whiffs, whatever she goes for. It might not be what you're supposed to do, but it's something to deal with the pressure issue you're having. Should stop her from pouncing on you with dolphins, and while her 5H is awesome, the +7 or whatever on block wont matter if it whiffs and you get to hit her. Just be careful not to get OHK'd because you're holding faultless all the time, and don't waste all your meter on blocking. If you're feeling brave, hold FD with say P+S, and then hit H right as the last hit in the blockstring would hit you, but err on the side of doing it late so that if you whiff the slashback you've still FD'd, such that May's move still whiffs and you're safe even with the 30 frames of no blocking. How useful this is sort of depends on who you're playing as (I'm experimenting with this as I-No right now since her 5K has good range), since you might push her out too far to punish effectively even if you land a slashback under those circumstances. Also, watch for May adapting and changing her blockstrings (like going into 6H to hit you from 3/4 screen anyway), and punish any new gaps or unsafe approaches (early dolphin or something).

Has anyone ever gone for her IK setups in tournament play, or do players even learn them to use in casuals? Seems silly that her minimum damage is probably the lowest, her max damage is tied with Akihiko at 0-death because of those set-ups, and somehow I haven't heard about anyone stomping around winning tournaments like that. Hell, I've had people tell me that Kanji has the best IK "because he has setups for it", and when I reply that Slab can combo into hers, they look at me like I'm stupid. *Shrug* I'm pretty sure she can still go for them even after whatever the latest patch is, right?

Play with inputs turned on in training mode so you can see what sort of issues you're having. Do you mess up the directional inputs more, or the button presses on FRCs? How do you hold the stick itself? After enough time to adjust to stick (so much that I'd rather play stick than pad, but not enough time to really be 100% comfortable with it), I have no problems with the buttons, but I have issues handling the actual stick. From my perspective: 1. Practice doing those motions as cleanly as possible at first - speed will come with the muscle memory. 2. Always practice doing stuff from the left and the right. 3. The buttons you use to FRC will wind up being dependent on what you're trying to do. For basic stuff like Gunflame > FRC > dash in, doing K+S+H is good since it's ergonomic (tip: for this particular movement, hit 6 > KSH > 6, and you'll dash immediately out of the FRC). If you ever need something like Millia's haircar > FRC > j.K, you'd probably want to do P+S+H into immediate K. I don't remember Sol's inputs off of the top of my head since I don't play him, but I think this might come into play when you do stuff like air bandit revolver > FRC > j.D > air bandit revolver. 4. If you don't really feel right in the way that you're holding the stick (just can't get those IADs or can't do DPs), there are videos on youtube about different grips. I actually started with those basic "how to hold your controller" tutorials. 5. Find what's comfortable and efficient! I don't really take Persona Fighter seriously, but I play Shadow Labrys and hold my thumb where TeeJay's "D" button is, with my hand rotated accordingly - middle for A (his K), index for B (P), ring for C (S). It's comfortable since I have to hold D all ****ing day long to play her, and it's easier on my wrist than propping my hand up to hit the buttons the conventional way. Map your buttons however the **** you want, although the arcade setup will be the way you have it, and I suggest you get used to having the buttons there, now matter how you decide to interface yourself with them.

Yeah, there are some restrictions on throwing. I think you can't throw for 5 frames out of block stun, 6 frames out of hit stun, and I can't remember exactly how much on wakeup. I think it's either 5 frames again, or 10 frames. Walk up throw oki still works when you scare people though. So tick throw off of 5P, or do a meaty 6K/2K from out of their throw range, or do Slidehead, etc. Early whiffed 5P > 6H is pretty good to bait a backdash, and meaty 6H > Slidehead is seriously hard to get out of if you don't IB the 6H (assuming they don't backdash the 6H or something).

I-No is nuts. I've barely had opportunities to practice until recently, so saying that I've been playing her for like 1.5 years now and can't get her BnB stuff down isn't saying much (I mean really, when you play a few games every 1-4 weeks, what do you expect?). Still, for 5K > HCL > Airdash, the 5K > HCL is already a really tight cancel, and it needs to be JI'd so you'll probably just do a 360 (which has to be done in something like 22 frames so the 5K combos into the HCL), and the Airdash needs to come out within something like 4 frames of the FRC, which has a 2 frame window. And then you generally want to go into j.S > FF VCL if you pushed them into the corner, or you'll have to do something like j.S > j.H > land, and then if your timing is sexy and you're against someone fat enough, you might do c.S instead of getting f.S, which will let you keep going for free, or you'll have to go for 5K off of that landing AND DO ALL OF THAT HARD **** ALL OVER AGAIN. And don't get me started on the stuff that drops on Sol/OS.

Cool, thanks for the link.

On PS3, it seems like track 24 is missing after selecting characters. Maybe it was 23 or 25, I forget, but that song just gets skipped. Noticed it in vs CPU mode. Can someone repro this?