whitevoid

If that's what you're calling it, then you're saying it's the same thing. I just say in theory because it assumes optimal and even play which isn't typically the case. A match-up list is more just a starting point then an ending point because it can't (and shouldn't) accommodate contrary notions. So if you look at people who listed Tager higher in their eyes then on a match-up chart what they are saying is reflecting, not necessarily a difference in the match-up technicalities, but just how those technicalities play out over the reality of non-optimal non-even play.

tomaytoes tomahtoes. i would actually say that the new tier list is actually a tier list, whereas the old one is just a match-up chart. match-up chart is more in theory whereas tier is more in practice.

Nice! Have you tested it on other characters?

drive C is jump cancelable on hit.

Very Nice!

That's not necessarily true. There are many games designed to be mirrors, but it's the player's skills and propensities that define how it plays out rather than structured differences between both sides. You could do it in a fighting game and still make it interesting, but you'd have to develop the move set many times over so that player style would overcome design. I mean, in real life two human beings have essentially "the same movelist" but can fight dramatically different. Fighting games could have gone this route, but it would probably be far too complex to every catch out compared to a FPS where it's more intuitive.

When you are looking at damage you are essentially trying to see how many combos it takes to kill the opponent. Average life is around 11000. If you do around 3.7K a combo, it takes 3 combos to kill. To get it to 2 combos, 5.5K a combo. The minimum for it to be 4 combos to kill is 2.75K. Now obviously, you'll be getting some random hits. But ideally you want to be able to hit the mid 3Ks on your combos. If you are falling below 3K, you need to learn better combos. It takes a lot more to shift from 3 combos to kill to 2 combos, so you don't necessarily need to break your back pushing yourself from 3.5 to 4.0 or something, though obviously every bit helps.

I don't see how being in the air longer makes it harder for Tager to Sparkbolt you. He's either going to try and hit you on the upward arc (which is anticipation) or he's going to hit you on the downward arc (which is just, you know waiting for you to fall). It's not like you can air dash downward and screw with the downward trajectory speed, so I don't see what this stuff about "guessing" when you're going to land. I mean, I guess if someone is on auto-pilot then maybe sure. But even then it's no more special then baiting an anti-air with a double jump. And you don't have to "guess" whether or not the lasers are going to hit you as you can see the steins far before they shoot. So you wouldn't be guessing, you'd just be learning how quickly they shoot. And of course remember that it's all risk for you with no reward. And you still get magnetized if you DP the Sparkbolt. At least, I believe that was the result from my testing... I remember being disappointed. And "on reaction" is very, very close. At a certain level of anticipation, yes you can do it on reaction. But without anticipation, you're going to eat that Sparkbolt. I don't even really see why you'd WANT to DP that Sparkbolt, as it's, again, an all risk no reward scenario. I mean just block the thing. I don't really get that second part. "He can't simply block or wait you out to get that Sparkbolt." As if he could, not at all block and not wait for Sparkbolt? It takes 20 SECONDS to get Sparkbolt online. You CANNOT break 10 Primers in 20 seconds. You CANNOT break 1 primer every two seconds. Unless he opens the match with a burst or just decides to block your first FOUR lvl 3 SoDs for some reason. And no one said that it "evens it out." I just can't believe people are going saying that by jumping in the air, they have completely trumped Sparkbolt.

What's your point? Do you never use moves that can be beaten out by other moves? It's not like they are going to see your 5 frame jab and 360 it on reaction.

No one is saying it "cripples her game." But even on block the move does worlds for Tager and if you are playing around it, Tager is suddenly dictating what you do, limiting your strategy making it still an effective move. I still feel it's firmly in Mu's favor, but I don't think it's really all that worse than many other characters in CS.

1) Lol. At first I thought you meant, if backdash was the only thing it beats... which was confusing. I believe double gadget will catch which they can RC for 2K damage, which if you feel like you can afford to take the hit is fairly negligible. I mean, if you're having trouble with the match-up already, then Tager is probably getting more than 2K damage for 50 meter. I hear it clashes with AC in a way that you wouldn't be able to jump cancel it, but I haven't experienced that. 2) I like leading the offense with 5A since Tager can't duck it and it gives good frames. If Tager doesn't play too aggressive, you can get a mix-up off of jC and empty jump land 3C. jC can come out fairly late in the jump and both are pretty quick, nets you decent damage for being pretty safe. I found that Tager could AC me from much farther out than I had originally thought though. Other than that, I just poke -> hit confirm and Hotaru is good. I probably should be able to D more in this match-up, but I never time it right and always eat the hits. My pain problem with Tager is just that I can't AA him worth crap and for whatever reason j2C owns my soul. But that's just me sucking.

"Playing around Sparkbolt" is like saying "just block Arakune in Fever Mode." Okay, not quite the same thing but it's a very strong over-simplification. If you can play around Sparkbolt, then you're just way better than the Tager player.

if you're having problems with Tager, one of the things that helps me is to remember that you can't simply neglect going for damage. theoretically, you can just 4C and jC him all day... but if you can't (and generally a worthwhile Tager shouldn't let you), he can make up the damage on that quickly and stay up in your face once he does. just relying on poke damage to win you the match isn't going to cut it against Tager. don't go crazy, but you can't just go for super-safe no-damage options. he just has too much life and can recover from small damage gaps too easily.

I didn't misread, I disagree. Look at CT and look at the long list of total BS that Rachel and Nu have that Mu does not have. If you want to say 6.5, I guess I won't argue. I just don't really like half-points personally. But my point is that it's still not CT bad. Just saying that "Tager can't do anything against someone who turtles and can avoid sparkbolt" is just describing why Tager is Tager in almost every match-up. I mean it's not like he can run in any of his other match-ups.

If she goes into recovery (she reloads), then you should be able to punish her. None of her Drive enders leave her at a frame advantage. 236D pushes out fairly well though, but you can probably 632146D, it especially if you IB it. There can be gaps in Drive, but 623D or d5A will always transition safely I believe, but most attacks will leave a gap during Drive. With a DP and a Parry, Drive really shouldn't be a problem for Makoto.

For that reason, I will firmly stand by it NOT being 7-3. It's not CT Nu/Rachel bad.

If you want to remove outliers the actual statistical way to do it is to remove the top and bottom scores regardless of whom it came from. I actually did that, and was going to post it, but the list didn't really change all that much. The order was still the same, but I believe Tao fell to B tier (15 and needed 16) and Noel was put to B tier. Or actually, she was 11 and she needed 12 so she was still in C.

I can agree to that. Lambda surprises me, but overall I'm not all that surprised. If anyone had to fall out of A tier in my eyes, it would have been Lambda anyways. My opinion essentially the fifth player's opinion. And he is clearly the best out of all of them.

To be honest, at the rate that I eat 720s, I'll eat that 2K damage any day. And you can't just think of it as "adding" damage, because you're actually risking getting CH so it's 2K versus whatever you lose if you guess wrong. Lastly, it seems kind of moot to reset it if Tager already blew his 50 meter on the combo. If he had 100 only doing 4K for 100 meter seems like spending way too much meter. It's definitely a strong option to have, but it doesn't change the amount of choices for the opponent just yours and the corresponding risk/rewards.

Ahh, okay I see where it's listed. I was looking for it under C moves, but it's just part of the 3C combos.

didn't see this on the front page (or any of the ones that I saw), but 6C Blessed Mirror is a normal hit combo. 4 Steins is about 4.1K. I think each stein adds around .6K or something.

That's what I figured. Just wondering if better minds had come up with anything else.

He said "his 236C". So I was assuming he was talking about Hakumen's 41236C.

:Shrug: Far be it from me to deny you a conversation that means something from you. I'm just saying that it doesn't mean anything to me.

S- as opposed to A+ or how about S-- or what? Sure, it does mean something, yes, but it doesn't mean as much as you'd like to think it does. And my point isn't that you divide because there are a certain number of people in that tier, you divide because after at a certain point it actually matters. Is it Bang Litchi or Litchi Bang? Does it really make a difference? If you're just shifting people between one or two spots it's not really important unless you are moving them across a tier. But if there are 8 spots in a tier it does make a difference if one is at the top and one is at the bottom. Going from 3rd to 4th in a field of 16 isn't that big of a deal. Going from 3 to 11 is a notably larger deal.