FlyingVe

Agreed, balance in CS2 (even for Tager) is pretty good for the most part. I think it's just that Tager players (me included) were hoping we'd be something other than dead last after 3 games, lol. Note: Theres a difference, in my mind, between being last, and dead "in your own tier" last. And yeah, character variety in BB is spectacular.

That's the one in august right? I can't say, as I'm buried in job stuff. If my life stabilizes soon then I can start going to stuff. Also, Jax isn't a grappler in the slightest, but Cyrax is a close as MK gets to a grappler. His grab game is terrifying, even post nerf. Hence, a hybrid grappler. MK doesn't have a pure grappler.

Just a random note, remember that the command laser is pretty good for TRM. Though TRM usually won't work against scrubs.

Actually, bad matchups with grapplers even among better players is pretty frustrating (See twins vs Zangief). But I get what you/they are saying. Maybe the solution is to avoid the pure grappler archetype in favor of hybrids ala Abel, Wesker, Cyrax, or even Bang. Edit: Having to use DL through a proxy is annoying...

Wasn't trying to suggest it's an easy thing to do. It's just the idea that an easy character should suck because they are easy hurts my mind.

Really... Mori is making my mind hurt so much... A characters difficulty should be intrinsic, not artificial, and should have no bearing on their power level. I thought this was design 101.

On the bright-side, I don't feel obligated to ever try for mag now.

Still, congrats Astaroth.

Yes, but the throws, while redundant (agreed there) aren't the root of the problem, it's his normals.

The reason people don't respect his close range game is because he has no way to set up the throws or any other mixup. Or at least, very poor ways to do so. This is mostly because of his garbage normals and a total inability to re-establish pressure.

Ah, that could also be an interesting direction. Though, I really don't think the throws themselves are why Tager is bad. The point about having 5 very similar moves is an interesting one though.

If they did big damage it might be worth it to try the TRM stuff, but still, that's a very specific purpose.

Right, the regular throws, they are pretty worthless, though I guess you can do some TRM stuff with them but if they let us cancel into 360s again that wouldn't even matter.

I've re-read our discussion, and I think I may agree, however, that would have to include a damage buff of some kind I think. Edit: and by some kind, I don't necessarily mean a direct damage increase. Maybe 360A is the one that should be allowed to be RC'd.

I mean, it depends on alot of things really, like matchup and screen position, its just the gadget mixup is so weak.

You can still do it, the timing is just different. Personally, I don't use Gadget all that much, especially now that 5D doesn't really do much.

Air UB 5A/2A and a faster 5C would go along way towards the conditioning issues Tager has. 360B is really already fast enough to be a tic. Though being able to do anything with an air hit 5A would be nice. Also, Big Bang Smash, that would be so good for Tager, be able to spend meter for a fullscreen presence. The repeatable pressure issue would be really hard to fix.

Osuna pointed out that in defensive terms the 360A is better, however, I believe that 360A's threat level is really low.

I agree with that assessment entirely. More invul is really the buff you're asking for though. I don't really have a particular response to that as I do agree with it, but 360B is the throw I use almost 100% of the time in mixup because it usually just the better option. I will restate your point for emphasis, if you doing things where you need to use the pull 360A is ballz.

hmm... only 65 greater, i thought it was more than that. *shrug*

360A's range is almost double that of 360B. But conditioning at that range is very spotty as 5C isn't fast enough to be a great anti-jump and we don't get shit for 3C. 5B can work though, but you have no good way of reseting the situation if they don't jump.

Sloppy Joes are always good. When people suggested VCxx720 and 6A armor I pretty sure they were hoping for a different implementation than what we got. The details as you said. I agree that having a better invulnerable command grab would be great, but as I've said before I'm just really against the idea of having a good invulnerable grab that doesn't cost meter. It's not 360A's range that is the problem so much, it's just that at that range I don't find it a particularly good option. It's very easy to beat/bait/avoid, so I find it much more consistent to play footsies and jockey for position, using moves that won't cause me to explode if it doesn't work out. Obviously you can avoid 360B in all the same ways but landing a 360B dramatically changes the match, whereas a 360A not so much. In addition, in most situations where you can condition my opponent enough to try a throw, they're gonna be in 360B range anyways, and the speed makes it a better tic. People are just much more afraid of 360B than A. Agreed there would need to be lots of frame data changes but I wasn't going to dig through that for the purposes of a wishlist. Also, what do you mean by you wish 360A was slower? Do you mean that you could hold it longer? On another note, not being in CH state during throw recovery would be nice. Especially with the FC mechanic.

If I may submit a recommendation. At the very top of the combo thread you should list the main combo's from important hits such as: A>B>C>SoD[c] 6B>SoD[c] CH jC CH 2C jC 214D corner and midscreen I think most of our big confirmable hits will come form these and it would be nice if people could look them up easily.

First, I wanted to say that you've made all good points and I have had to rethink a few things, and that at this point I feel we are arguing over how best to use Tager's different grabs. As for the 360A, there's a reason you don't see it used alot, and that's because the risk/reward on it isn't very good. This is mostly because it's slow and doesn't do alot of damage (relatively). If your at a range where you have to use the pull on 360A, it sucks, and as you put it, you'd be 'silly' to do so. So what your left with is a short range counter-poke, which is why I hold it's used primarily as a footsies tool/threat. When used as a quasi-reversal (as in the +1 situation I described), it just isn't worth using. So you are correct in stating that the 360B buff is mostly a damage buff but there's a reason you don't disrespect Ragna's 2A>2C but you might his 2C>stuff, it's because one is a hell of alot scarier than the other. I may have missed what your second point was getting at, if so, I apologize. But I believe that Tager's only punishment/tic/escape grab is his 360B/720C as 360A either doesn't work well or is too risky for it's tiny reward. Edit: Sorry for the delay, making sloppy joes. Edit2: I just remembered that landing recovery is 4 frames. Which would make the faster 360B (very situationally) better.

I do agree with that statement, but the throw nerf/buffs were meant to be taken in whole (which you already addressed). To be honest, I don't even think Tager's throw game is even the real reason he doesn't have alot of that grappler presence. It's his neutral and his non-throw close range normals. There are other issues of course.