FlyingVe

You're talking about the 720 as a reversal. While that's certainly good, I still feel (my opinion on this one), that Tager's ability to convert a 1 frame gap into 5.6k unburstable damage is one of the key reasons he doesn't get real buffs. It would be frustrating and potentially unbalanced if he was both a good character (for whatever reasons) and had a reversal that lopped off half your health. I also think there are lots of other ways to fix Tager's defensive issues. Edit: To answer your edit (lol) the speed on the 360A is a liability when ever it has to use it magnetic pull to get the grab. It is unreactionable at point blank, but just barely.

I could get on board with that idea (in fact on my original list I reduced it to one grab and an air 360) . But I still don't like the idea of the invulnerable command grab being really good from a gameplay perspective. As I said before, in the context of my list, there is no 720 for that punishment role. As long as we still have the 720, 360B doesn't really need a speed boost.

You discounting the damage difference. 360A doesn't really do alot of damage, where-as 360B does. A situation where 2.7k is on the line is much weaker than one where 4k+ is on the line. Also, reactionable or not the difference in speed between 360A and B is still significant.

I don't like invulnerable command grabs, (personal thing) would I would rather buff 360B than A. As an example of the threat. If the opponent is a +1 for whatever reason, and you do 360B and they do a 5F move (probably 5A) then they would get grabbed because throws beat attacks if they hit at the same time. Obviously they could still jump or back away. The difference between this and 360A (which would also beat the jab), is that if they sit there for even a few frame, they get grabbed. Where-as 360A is pretty slow. IB just puts a +4 frame situation in the same +1 situation. Edit: I said one frame there, that was stupid, fixed that.

I'm also suggesting it alongside letting you RC it and general damage boosts. Potemkin buster (as an example) is made extra scary because you can FRC into huge damage. 360A just doesn't do enough damage to be hyper scary. Yes, it is effectively like the CS1 360B on IB, but the move is better without IB, and the game is CS2. It's much more powerful in context. I shouldn't have used the word punish, that was a poor choice on my part, the big gain is the threat of getting grabbed. Edit: My intention was also to replace the threat that goes with the 720, more so that an expectation that 4F 360B is a game altering buff. Of my suggestions, it really does about the same thing as the current 720.

What Isorropa said was what I was getting at. I'm okay with people using spacing against the grappler, that's what they should have to do. Also, really I was thinking the 360B should probably be 3 frames, but I thought that might be overkill. Also, since IB is -3, then it would assist in any situation where the opponent is +4 or worse. (+4 with IB, +1 with normal block). Edit: After re-reading my post, I think my use of the word punish was a bit of an issue.

6B(blocked)>backdash is really good. Not perfect (except against the bunny characters), but very good.

I don't think the frame data is as incompatible as your suggesting it is, if at all. With the IB system of reducing pushback and blockstun lost of moves would be rendered vulnerable. This doesn't mean that loads of stuff would suddenly become vulnerable and useless, but it would require a change in tactics. A good example is with staggered strings. Heaven forbid people respect the grappler up close. You are correct in saying that the current 360A 'could' function this way, but because of its speed it is still a crap shoot. It's hard to use it as a tool to discourage or alter someones play-style when the thing can be avoided in the situations where a 4F 360 could work as an actual punish. 360A is, in my opinion, more of a footsies tool, using the invul and mag to yomi out pokes and maybe stuff certain shitty moves like bang's D. But as it stands, you can just run all over Tager in the up close game because he is just a character with a grab and a gimmick and not a grappler.

My logic is simple. In most games the grappler has a throw that is wicked fast. Faster than the standard fast normal (which in BB is 5 frames). What this does is make it so that the grappler can punish things that other characters cannot. It makes it so that other characters have to be very cautious playing up close. In fact, Tager is the only grappler that does not have a fast command grab. The effect of this is that other characters mush watch their spacing against the grappler. In my opinion it would make Tager alot more like a grappler if he had such a throw. You could just change the timings on you tic's. Also, I suggested it under the pretense of removing the 720C.

What do you expect. It's like Zeromus said. Get Mad Buffz Still nobody plays you

@AXIS: I jsut noticed something in your comment. But the increased active frames on the 4D would enable it to hit meaty easier and thus give you more plus frames.

As he is right now, your right... But he's obviously supposed to be a grappler, so most of my ideas were to make his upclose game actually threatening. I agree that some might be overboard.

Tager's a grappler, the lack of any remotely fast normal makes his up close game garbage. Like AXIS said 6F would probably be enough.

The fact that Magna Tech wheal is auto guard and not invulnerable is a big weakness.

Well, a CA with 6A would be one hell of a defensive option. I might say broken, but its really alot like Noels.

Also, you could make his CA 6A. Slow-ish, but JC-able.

I said this while you were responding but having the 360B be 4 frames would make his grab game alot more like a grappler, than just a character with a command grab. Good point about the reversal thing, I was kinda thinking the terra-break would fill that role (I'd give it lots of invul). Not safe though. I just don't like the 720. Like I said I probably forgot small stuff. Also, I don't think anything here would make him god tier, jsut viable.

I tried to replace the 720 with a faster 360B. In most games things that are safe against other characters are not against grapplers. This would accomplish that. The 720C always seemed like a gimmicky and overly random attack. It's applications represent everything wrong with Tager. Having a really good command grab (360B) that you could rapid for similar damage is more dynamic in my opinion. I pulled this idea straight from Potemkin. As for the Double jump and not airdash, Tager is a grappler, he should not be very mobile. The double jump is just to give him an air option instead of just being helpless like he is now. Keep away should be effective against Tager, he just should have some options to approach.

-My thoughts on the 2D were to make it easier to do so and let the Tager player exploit their spacing better. -The Hammer change also means that we get another hit in out BnB and that 5D>236A>236A>22D is useful.

Seriously, I'm curios what some of you think of my ideas, I put alot of thought into some of them.

To make it fair. If you space the move right (with my Tsubaki buff) you could be at significant +frames so it could no longer be -1 on block. I figure a Tager should be punished for using the move stupidly. Though something like -4 could also work requiring an IB.

Also, I suggested stand alone terra break which would let Tager use his invul for anti-zoning. I tried to make Tager's meter use more varied and useful.

Yeah, but I'm sick of Tager's one useful anti-projectile move gets beaten by projectiles. That's actually one of the tamest of my suggestions.

Now presenting for the purposes of beating a dead horse, discussion, and general whining. My newest Tager wish list. 1)5f 5A, 7F 2A 2)Taller 2A hitbox 3)13F 5C 4)Taller 5C hitbox 5)60% character rate (with proration changes for general damage boost/balance 6)8 active frames on 4D 7)Remove 720C 8)Add standalone terra-break (think makoto's BBS) 9)360B 4F startup 10)360B is RC-able 11)Hammer causes untechable knockdown on non-CH (instead of bounce) 12)Spark Blot projectile invul on startup 13) 22D causes stagger state 14)Double Jump 15)6A Jump-Cancelable 16) 2D Doesn't undergo recovery on impact (like Tsubaki's shield Rush) 17) 2D is -6 at point blank 18) 2C>4D returns I'm probably forgetting some but this is what I was thinking the last week. Also, some of these are more significant than they initially seem. I will be glad to explain anything, and some of it might be dumb. Feel free to inform me if I haven't thought it through.

Thoughts: -Your hit-confirming seemed off. I know you know how to do this so I'm just gonna chalk it up to mistakes, but there where alot of hits that should have been big combos that weren't -vs Hakumen: In my opinion controlling the air is more important than the ground. He doesn't have alot of mobility options on the ground that you taking away from him with the lasers. And you can't really lock him down with the command laser because of his counters. -Vs: Bang... fuck Bang...