[Xrd] News & Gameplay Discussion 2 - Console is Out!

[StylisH]

Or they could, you know, distribute small buffs and nerfs wisely, based on the current meta and context. Doesn't have to be nothing but nerfs or nothing but buffs. I think a little nerf to the more overbearing tactics some characters have is reasonable, lest we risk people getting fed up and frustrated with the game due to bullshit.

 

Nah, that makes too much sense.  Common sense is banned here. 

 

Don't even bring up Blazblue that game is already in nait-nait tier. I don't think anyone really cares about that game anymore. Xrd however has a loyal following and stole a lot of bb players anyway. Let it die in peace guise.

 

Some people (myself included) actually care about the series, I just wish it was handled with a bit more wisdom.

[TekkamanArk]

I think I missed something, update is 100% confirmed? Hoping for the following:

Nerfs:

———

Sol

Bedman

Ramlethal

Elphelt (slightly)

Chipp (slightly)

Buffs:

———

Slayer

Venom

May

Both:

———

Leo

[Angry Guy of DE]

>Bedman Nerfs

What?

[StylisH]

I think I missed something, update is 100% confirmed? Hoping for the following:

Nerfs:

———

Sol

Bedman

Ramlethal

Elphelt (slightly)

Chipp (slightly)

Buffs:

———

Slayer

Venom

May

Both:

———

Leo

 

You want to nerf Bedman?!

[TekkamanArk]

I'm only going off of what i've seen, mind you, but I play with 1 friend in a lot of fighters, and he's usually pretty average, but he makes Bedman look super OP. And he hasn't been putting lab hours, so a sudden skill jump seemed questionable. So, I thought it was the character.

[zankoku]

Character UNFAMILIARITY, maybe. Bedman's pretty awkward to play against if you don't understand his stuff, but his (lukewarm) performance in tournaments and JP arcade should be telling enough on how strong of a character he currently is.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Sol A tier = nerf

 

Elphelt S tier = nerf slightly

 

...

 

GO HOME

[TekkamanArk]

Sol A tier = nerf Elphelt S tier = nerf slightly ... GO HOME

When I say "slightly", I just mean that only certain things need nerfs. If sverything got nerfed, or nerfed too hard, she'd be worthless. She is sort of hard to balance properly. Sol can eat a general nerf and be fine.

[Angry Guy of DE]

Sol is fine for the most part, he doesn't need any general nerf since he needs meter to convert most hits into impressive damage.

Elphelt needs more adjustments because her grenade will trade with projectiles but still continue to explode later.  She is far from worthless but seeing Ogawa have trouble with Elphelt just tossing grenades to stop Eddie and then be able to rush in shows how she can just disrespect neutral once the grenade is thrown.

I think you should examine characters more before coming to a decision as to whether they deserve to be nerfed.

[D.R.F.]

The thing about elphelt is her endless potential thanks to the ways her tools can be used in many applications (berry pine, travalier, confire, etc.) This allows for almost limitless ways to effectively play her and honestly, it's a very cool way to design a character. The problem is (at least imo) when she just controls the screen with a couple normals (and berry pine), bends people 90 degrees with no risk/godlike reward setups, and doesn't even require real work to do half of this stuff until a certain level of play it seems. berry pine is just fucking stupid lol. A lot of times you don't need to play neutral because the grenade does it for you, and 7/10 times the opponent will have to react to it, which automatically puts elphelt in an advantageous situation. (Seriously, fuck that move)

Despite my animosity for her, I really don't want to see her burn to the ground (or anyone for that matter, nothing is less fun than beating 1.0 Izayoi because they gotta do a billion things only to lose, despite it being kinda funny to watch)

[Syklone]

Elphelt is just kinda obnoxious. Idk why ASW gives characters these gay unblockables.

[TekkamanArk]

Elphelt is really strong, and i'm fine with her getting nerfs, but I do think they need to be very careful how they do it. Wouldn't take much to drop her to bottom. I hate ASW balancing as someone who like Tsubaki, Makoto, and Kagura. I HAVE analyzed Elphelt, and her being too good or too bad would be done in just a few tweaks.

[zankoku]

I'm not sure I believe you.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

When I say "slightly", I just mean that only certain things need nerfs. If sverything got nerfed, or nerfed too hard, she'd be worthless. She is sort of hard to balance properly. Sol can eat a general nerf and be fine.

 

Giving Sol a 'general' nerf would be a surefire way to send him down the list in a hurry. When a character is well rounded, the last thing you want to do is nerf them across the board. I question whether or not he even needs a nerf. If anything, no character should get a general nerf; nerfs, if needed, should be aimed only at the specific problems the character may cause.

 

In Elphelt's case, I personally think they should remove the hitbox on Berry Pine when thrown, and get rid of the unblockable loops. Maybe nerf Bridal Express a little bit.

[Rhannmah]

I'd say Sol is the best example of a perfectly balanced character. Strong in certain areas, but with weaknesses in others.

 

The problem with Elphelt, I feel, is that she's strong in ALL areas and doesn't seem to have any inherent weaknesses. She needs to have weaknesses in at least one of close range/midrange/long range; right now, she's strong everywhere.

[Angry Guy of DE]

Pink hair...wears white...Unblockables...an anti-air normal that hits behind her...

Its Kokonoe guys, we know that Elphelt is pretty much Kokonuts.

The other problem with Elphelt is that she doesn't really require much work to do her things compared to the rest of the cast. 

The grenade shouldn't nullify other projectiles but still explode anyway.  The explosion should have prorate and scaling on it.  Nothing is worse than getting hit by the explosion and then Elphelt can shotgun loop for 200+ damage.

[StylisH]

The thing about elphelt is her endless potential thanks to the ways her tools can be used in many applications (berry pine, travalier, confire, etc.) This allows for almost limitless ways to effectively play her and honestly, it's a very cool way to design a character. The problem is (at least imo) when she just controls the screen with a couple normals (and berry pine), bends people 90 degrees with no risk/godlike reward setups, and doesn't even require real work to do half of this stuff until a certain level of play it seems. berry pine is just fucking stupid lol. A lot of times you don't need to play neutral because the grenade does it for you, and 7/10 times the opponent will have to react to it, which automatically puts elphelt in an advantageous situation. (Seriously, fuck that move)

Despite my animosity for her, I really don't want to see her burn to the ground (or anyone for that matter, nothing is less fun than beating 1.0 Izayoi because they gotta do a billion things only to lose, despite it being kinda funny to watch)

 

I can't help it, it's funny as hell every time you mention berry pine in a post, it's hilarious.

 

Another issue:

 

Nerfing Sol?  Why?  He's pretty good, he's not going to make you think "I can't stand this OP character, for the love of God, WHY ARC?!"  If anything, he seems pretty well balanced.  Rushing to nerf (or buff) characters before we even pan out all the tech as they are currently makes very little sense. 

 

I'm with a few others here, it might be a good idea to get a step up in your level and competition before making a list of proposed buffs/nerfs. 

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

I think people are always quick to jump on the nerf Sol bandwagon because for some reason, it's distateful to have a character who is easy to pick up and do strong stuff with. It doesn't take long to get to a competitive level with Sol relative to other characters in the cast. At the same time, most Sol players will plateau quickly as well, so it's really just a matter of taking the time to figure out the matchup. Unfortunately, a lot of players never get past the "OMG SOL TOO OP NERF PLS" phase.

[D.R.F.]

I can't help it, it's funny as hell every time you mention berry pine in a post, it's hilarious.

I can't help it lol. If it weren't for that move, it would just be another hard matchup were I have a disadvantage in.

[Ragnarok_F4]

All the top tier needs some nerfs. I don't know the rest of that tier but Ram is actually relatively easy, even Kokonoe is harder in her neutral (and her neutral was quite dumb itself). Ram's neutral is idiot, 6S and/or 6HS wherever you are and you teleport a sword in their face controlling almost everything he/she does (they actually need to change the way they play to get close), don't use her swords and your normals have Sin's range and tons of damage. In general, you have corner carry almost from corner to corner, setups far from being the best, but does its work in covering you while you do some mixup between high, lows, YRC and a command grab, that will end in another setup if confirmed. And even if you are a setup character, you're a zoner too, with one of the best zoning tools of the cast, if not the best. Ohh, and also you have almost Sin's damage (like 190 and up to 300 I think). She's like combining yukari's space controlling (and quite easier by the way) with kokonuts neutral and setups. It is like an automatic Koko-Nu xD.

 

And Zato and Elphelt have kokonoe's unblockables but with just 25 bar and tons of damage. Kokonoe needed at least 50 bar and many times her burst to make a true setup (and an insane combo route), Elphelt needs.....just a knockdown and 25 bar lol. Zato needs bar for it? (I don't know about Zato).

 

All of them have so many tools and all those tools are so good. I too, think that the tiers are a bit far from each other. From Woshige's tier in the other thread, I think that S and A are kind of close, but B is far away. For example, Slayer, Pot and Axl have serious trouble against Ram, those 3 need to work a lot more and probably be a better player to win.

 

For sure, Ram, Elphelt, Millia and Zato need nerfs, maybe Faust (I don't know him). I think Sol is ok and he should stay like that, maybe tweak some normals or damage but not much. Same with Ky and Chipp. The low tier chars need some buffs.

[Alkipot]

Hey now. AC+ and AC+R that I remember were full of bullshit and that didn't took anything from mind games. Imo GG kept balance between strong stuff that you just have to grind out and outsmarting your opponent that only came with match experience.

 

My wishlist for Bedman: (I don't think he should get ALL of those, but any would be welcome)

- 2S > 2D gatling

- Task A' no longer teleporting on Blitz Shield (this is just silly -.-)

- 4/5F less recovery on 1/2/3H

- Enable air FD on airdash (not instantly, imo 6/8/10F after startup)

- New move - 22X (or 22D > X) - raw X seal setup

- Extended range on 2nd hit of 5H

- fix 6H to always hit crossup if it crosses up

 

This one I separate because I bet some would find that outright crazy:

- Task A/A' no longer disappears if Bedman blocks an attack.

 

I wish I got into this series sooner so I could know exactly what you mean, as this is my first Guilty Gear experience. Did those games come out before net updates/patching became a thing?

 

As for your Bedman buffs, I'd love most of those, and/or maybe if you can call deja vu tasks in mid-air... but holy hell if Task A/A' didn't disappear on block that might be kinda nuts as you said.

[Poultrygeist]

Task A/Prime not vanishing on block is way too much.  The rest sound good though.  I myself really want air Deja Vu to become a thing.

[Ried]

Ram's neutral is idiot, 6S and/or 6HS wherever you are and you teleport a sword in their face controlling almost everything he/she does (they actually need to change the way they play to get close), 

Wherever you are? It's not like sets alone are locking characters not named Pot down that hard and that's kinda the foundation of her gameplan in a lot of match-ups. It just forces an opening one way or the other. If they approach you can try to intercept if you're not recovering too late, and if they stay put, you can capitalize on it accordingly. You really can't even get away with that much against the faster characters though. The Chipps and Millias of the world will be on you, making you block(the worst possible fate) in an instant if you carelessly try to set at all in neutral, and you're just getting flat out punished if you do try it too close and/or too predictably. 

don't use her swords and your normals have Sin's range

Sin's range is pretty serious; he's that type of character. Ram f.S is like...a really middling ground poke by this game's standards(hitbox doesn't even extend to the tip of the sword, let alone to where Sin's f.S reaches), and only rewarding on crouch or counter-hit from an awfully hard confirm(assuming they aren't just doing it, which is probably a lot more likely for normal players), where if they block the f.S you can just get thrown out of Dauro and put in a bad spot. Even if they don't it's an easy enough move to IB so decidedly disadvantaged either way. Plus it's basically her only true mid-range option on the ground and it requires you to hold on to your S sword which is really valuable both set and equipped. It can lead to being somewhat transparent as a result. What you can afford to set and when is heavily situation and match-up dependent.

In general, you have corner carry almost from corner to corner,

When more than a handful of players can consistently do that in live settings, that'll be super scary, though aside from the Daiji combo, her carry is still crazy, just not 100% guaranteed from everywhere like that is, and obviously less damage as well.

You have to at least get a clean hit into some launcher mid-screen where her oki isn't anywhere near as mean though, so there's that I guess...but yeah. Strong for sure.

also you have almost Sin's damage (like 190 and up to 300 I think)

Her damage is pretty high overall, but I think what really puts it over the top is just that Trance is wayyyyy too good of an ender. You can tack it on to any given combo. It's like 40 hits on it's own and it leaves you free to be racking up more hits while they're in the blender. It doesn't matter if every hit is doing 1dmg, the hit count makes scaling irrelevant. It doesn't even matter if it's hitting otg. Double Trance ender is brutal. It probably shouldn't be a thing, but it is. Even beyond being the best combo ender, that super has ALL the utility. If they're knocked down in the corner, everyone just has to eat the mix-up and all that chip(or burn their meter). Even in less ideal circumstances where you throw it out where they could potentially jump out, it's pretty hard for a lot of chars to not just eat it anyway when she can recover and j.8D without needing to have any real consideration for anything other than like, air blitz shield, and if they get caught blocking it in the air, you run up on them(all the way to the corner) and force them to FD until all their meter is gone and take the free combo. The only reprieve is that it gives them their burst back real quick.

 

There are definitely some things of Rams that wouldn't be a bad idea to tweak, (Trance being one of them, j.P being another); I would think the same applies to a lot of the roster and the system itself in one way or another, but what and more importantly how to go about it in an intelligent way that isn't just some knee-jerk reaction to player outrage requires such a wealth of character knowledge and forethought on their part that it's really not at all surprising when a good number of people are inevitably upset with changes of any kind. Yet if they did nothing at all, other groups would be every bit as disappointed. Balance is hard. Appeasing everyone is impossible. It's always interesting to see developers try nonetheless.

[TekkamanArk]

I haven't seen enough to know on Leo, but, what's the consensus on his tier placement? Lower mid?

 

And what about Sin? I've heard a lot less complaining than I was expecting to about him.

[Clousephinat]

All the top tier needs some nerfs. I don't know the rest of that tier but Ram is actually relatively easy, even Kokonoe is harder in her neutral (and her neutral was quite dumb itself). Ram's neutral is idiot, 6S and/or 6HS wherever you are and you teleport a sword in their face controlling almost everything he/she does (they actually need to change the way they play to get close), don't use her swords and your normals have Sin's range and tons of damage. In general, you have corner carry almost from corner to corner, setups far from being the best, but does its work in covering you while you do some mixup between high, lows, YRC and a command grab, that will end in another setup if confirmed. And even if you are a setup character, you're a zoner too, with one of the best zoning tools of the cast, if not the best. Ohh, and also you have almost Sin's damage (like 190 and up to 300 I think). She's like combining yukari's space controlling (and quite easier by the way) with kokonuts neutral and setups. It is like an automatic Koko-Nu xD.

 

And Zato and Elphelt have kokonoe's unblockables but with just 25 bar and tons of damage. Kokonoe needed at least 50 bar and many times her burst to make a true setup (and an insane combo route), Elphelt needs.....just a knockdown and 25 bar lol. Zato needs bar for it? (I don't know about Zato).

 

All of them have so many tools and all those tools are so good. I too, think that the tiers are a bit far from each other. From Woshige's tier in the other thread, I think that S and A are kind of close, but B is far away. For example, Slayer, Pot and Axl have serious trouble against Ram, those 3 need to work a lot more and probably be a better player to win.

 

For sure, Ram, Elphelt, Millia and Zato need nerfs, maybe Faust (I don't know him). I think Sol is ok and he should stay like that, maybe tweak some normals or damage but not much. Same with Ky and Chipp. The low tier chars need some buffs.

 

Unlike Bridget (I don't know about Elphelt) he doesn't need to spend 25% of meter to do his unblockable, just get you in the corner with Eddie and a succesful command throw while you're dealing his hard pressure.