[Xrd] News & Gameplay Discussion 2 - Console is Out!

[Dirty Magic]

Most people are quick to nerf moves and buff others, but forget there is an eb and flow.

 

A small change could make a character go from the top to bottom in an instant, and making a character who before was mid, completely outclass the rest because their matchups could be so strong.

 

Having strong options that seem overpowering in given instances are not always the problem, but rather how others may deal with such issues across a broad spectrum. There's a ripple effect.

[solidscheme]

Nerf Pine projectile? lol

 

That's 75% of her neutral. Without it she's nothing you to have respect. If anything, her rifle stance needs improving.

 

What about the range, speed, damage of all of the options Zato Faust have? They're far better than the one thing she has.

 

Make unblockables (all of them) work only when not in block stun though.

Check out the grand finals of Frost Faustings 7:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OY8GfVp5qhA

[D.R.F.]

Nerf Pine projectile? lol

That's 75% of her neutral. Without it she's nothing you to have respect. If anything, her rifle stance needs improving.

What about the range, speed, damage of all of the options Zato Faust have? They're far better than the one thing she has.

Make unblockables (all of them) work only when not in block stun though.

Check out the grand finals of Frost Faustings 7:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OY8GfVp5qhA

Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa hold the phone. 75% of neutral? Only because it completely owns neutral. Only because it has like a million active frames while also having two hits, one of those hits COMPLETELY NEUTRALIZE PROJECTILES. Her buttons aren't good, right?:0 Shotgun stance is pretty garbage right? c.S ain't silly at all. Cuz that is what you are making it sound like

Fuck out of here man, nobody said fucking kill the character either. If one change to ONE MOVE completely kills a character, imo there is something wrong with the overall design.

[solidscheme]

Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa hold the phone. 75% of neutral? Only because it completely owns neutral. Only because it has like a million active frames while also having two hits, one of those hits COMPLETELY NEUTRALIZE PROJECTILES. Her buttons aren't good, right?:0 Shotgun stance is pretty garbage right? c.S ain't silly at all. Cuz that is what you are making it sound like

Fuck out of here man, nobody said fucking kill the character either. If one change to ONE MOVE completely kills a character, imo there is something wrong with the overall design.

lol

Zato has eddie on screen and can do FAR more than her. His hitbox is there and keeps coming with different options and TRACKS you (don't forget the drills). watch the video I posted. I can also give more examples.

[D.R.F.]

lol

Zato has eddie on screen and can do FAR more than her. His hitbox is there and keeps coming with different options and TRACKS you (don't forget the drills). watch the video I posted. I can also give more examples.

Everybody knows zato is better that wasn't the point. Point is that nerfing berry pine shouldn't kill the character. Everybody also knows that you don't work people down after a week with zato like you can elphelt. Regardless of character strength, berry pine is retarded

[Renly]

You guys are all basing this on Ogawa for Zato being the best. Is Potemkin overpowered because Fab has him at #1 in rankings? These 2 are incredibly talented with their characters. Zato is hard to learn and how to learn how to fight but look back at how Machabuu studied Ogawa and beat him 10-2 with Sol.

[solidscheme]

Everybody knows zato is better that wasn't the point. Point is that nerfing berry pine shouldn't kill the character. Everybody also knows that you don't work people down after a week with zato like you can elphelt. Regardless of character strength, berry pine is retarded

What you just said doesn't make any sense. Zato can drive a player into the corner with eddie, (while still being able to drill and do all sorts of anti-airs) but having to time and adjust which height to throw a pine is OP? lol I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing it. Here's another: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jApXZlgPwkE (Ogawa vs. Koichi)

You just need more practice.

[redsilversnake]

It's true that grenade is really, really good. If it's out, it's always going to be a threat unless Elphelt herself is blocking or getting hit while her opponent is nowhere near it. However, Fenrir is right that she still has good buttons for the times when she doesn't have it out, particularly her S moves. So, while she'd certainly be weaker if it got nerfed, other moves of hers would need to be nerfed for her to have nothing the opponent needs to respect.

[Jocelot]

I wonder if the changes are going to be super drastic, or just some smaller scale tweaks until a fullblown 'Xrd #Reload' or something. Either way, cautiously optimistic about whats to come, I just don't hope tweaks make the game less fun but its Guilty Fuckin' Gear at the end of the day so I'm not worried about that.

[D.R.F.]

Believe in team RED Jocelot... to an extent:D.

And go watch ogawa vs Sharon bruh, he fucks up ogawa lol. I love koichi, but sharon GOES IN HARD.

Also don't tell me to practice nigga, I do my work. And I will play the matchup. I just won't close my fucking eyes like a fan who doesn't understand their favorite star has fucking problems.

[solidscheme]

It's true that grenade is really, really good. If it's out, it's always going to be a threat unless Elphelt herself is blocking or getting hit while her opponent is nowhere near it. However, Fenrir is right that she still has good buttons for the times when she doesn't have it out, particularly her S moves. So, while she'd certainly be weaker if it got nerfed, other moves of hers would need to be nerfed for her to have nothing the opponent needs to respect.

Well, we have to remember that the explosion part is one hit (unlike something like I-no's note)so if it was canceled as easy as another projectile touching, it would be garbage. You also have to aim it right. It's not Sol's projectile that just covers his whole front. She has to be creative to use it well. Remember Dizzy's fish having the same property as the pine?

[Dirty Magic]

lol

Zato has eddie on screen and can do FAR more than her. His hitbox is there and keeps coming with different options and TRACKS you (don't forget the drills). watch the video I posted. I can also give more examples.

 

It's not a he-said she-said or (s)he has /this/ scenario though, just because Zero is strong that does not make Vergil fair.

 

 

Elphelt is good because she has solid tools working in her favour, take away Sol's DP and he'll still be a solid character.

 

Elf needs tweaking, but some people take things too far to the extreme, falsely exaggerating pros and cons,

[solidscheme]

Believe in team RED Jocelot... to an extent:D.

And go watch ogawa vs Sharon bruh, he fucks up ogawa lol. I love koichi, but sharon GOES IN HARD.

Also don't tell me to practice nigga, I do my work. And I will play the matchup. I just won't close my fucking eyes like a fan who doesn't understand their favorite star has fucking problems.

I don't play with her (still searching for a main), but I see the obvious that people hate having to adjust and immediately call something op. "I have to actually block?" Guilty Gear is based around setplay so why so surprised? Just admit you don't want to deal with it (I would love to see your replays).

[redsilversnake]

Well, we have to remember that the explosion part is one hit (unlike something like I-no's note)so if it was canceled as easy as another projectile touching, it would be garbage. You also have to aim it right. It's not Sol's projectile that just covers his whole front. She has to be creative to use it well. Remember Dizzy's fish having the same property as the pine?

It wouldn't be garbage, you'd just have to adjust your strategy. Also, gunflame doesn't still have to be considered when you cancel it out, whereas grenade will still be out and is guaranteed to explode. And Dizzy's fish are similar, but not really the same; they can cover her well with proper positioning or hit the opponent even if Dizzy herself gets hit, but they still go away when they get hit.

[solidscheme]

It's not a he-said she-said or (s)he has /this/ scenario though, just because Zero is strong that does not make Vergil fair.

 

 

Elphelt is good because she has solid tools working in her favour, take away Sol's DP and he'll still be a solid character.

 

Elf needs tweaking, but some people take things too far to the extreme, falsely exaggerating pros and cons,

Yes, the unblockables needs to go, but nerf the pine? Watch her fall fast when that happens (fenrir would love that). I don't believe people are complaining about slow a two-hit move. You have any matches fenrir I can see?

[D.R.F.]

Well, if it turns you on so hard then yes I've been bodied by Elphelt players before. It happens. But I don't have a problem with blocking. That's day one shit that people have to deal with (why am I explaining this) but I don't have a problem with blocking-I have a problem with being unable to play neutral because this rolling hitbox is neutralizing my projectiles (NOT EVEN TRADING) so I have to evade it or block. Or hey, I can psych burst or throw the opponent and guess what-the grenade is still there so I can't really do anything with my gtfo risk. It makes it even better when you take the thing out of the equation (cuz you are right you can beat it... kinda I guess) and you still get a pretty strong character with other things to force respect.

But I am really tired of talking about this move. It fucking grays my hair lol so I will stop. You win, awesome job dude.

[solidscheme]

It wouldn't be garbage, you'd just have to adjust your strategy. Also, gunflame doesn't still have to be considered when you cancel it out, whereas grenade will still be out and is guaranteed to explode. And Dizzy's fish are similar, but not really the same; they can cover her well with proper positioning or hit the opponent even if Dizzy herself gets hit, but they still go away when they get hit.

"disappear after getting hit" No different than Faust's items.

[D.R.F.]

"disappear after getting hit" No different than Faust's items.

Too bad faust's items (except for like meteors) can fuck him too. The grenade works better as a combo breaker for her than an actual problem when it explodes.

[solidscheme]

Well, if it turns you on so hard then yes I've been bodied by Elphelt players before. It happens. But I don't have a problem with blocking. That's day one shit that people have to deal with (why am I explaining this) but I don't have a problem with blocking-I have a problem with being unable to play neutral because this rolling hitbox is neutralizing my projectiles (NOT EVEN TRADING) so I have to evade it or block. Or hey, I can psych burst or throw the opponent and guess what-the grenade is still there so I can't really do anything with my gtfo risk. It makes it even better when you take the thing out of the equation (cuz you are right you can beat it... kinda I guess) and you still get a pretty strong character with other things to force respect.

But I am really tired of talking about this move. It fucking grays my hair lol so I will stop. You win, awesome job dude.

I'm not trying to win friend. I just don't see nerfing a move that takes setting up to work right. Every character needs to have something the opponent respects in neutral or they just get ran over. The pine is her "think about what you're doing NOW" move. Without it people would just rush her and not think about it. Ok, I'm done too. lol

[D.R.F.]

Oh mah gawd. Stop. You are fucking hurting me. You ever heard of f.S? How about 2S, who is terrifying on CH. 5Hs bodies scrubs for free and using it intelligently is... fucking good. What about her pretty good air normals. If you are afraid of airdashers, a well timed c.S will make sure they won't do that for a long time. J.D is a great air-to-air. This isn't even talking about her rushdown game. You make it sound like she loses an arm or some shit. Why can't it get nerfed, what is soo horribly bad about elphelt that I am missing?

[Don Blow Jon]

All this talk about nerfing pine and I just want to survive in the corner without having to worry about a certain death set up that involves just tossing pine and quick scoping me for the win. Yes I want unblockables nerfed to a point where it's at least a hell of a lot more viable to escape them or just remove the unblockable property of riffle stance but in turn buff it's overall utility. Elphelt's nade is pretty ridiculous but I don't feel the need to explain to go into detail when Fefnir already explained why it's just pure nonsense.

[Dirty Magic]

Yes, the unblockables needs to go, but nerf the pine? Watch her fall fast when that happens (fenrir would love that). I don't believe people are complaining about slow a two-hit move. You have any matches fenrir I can see?

 

I never said anything about Elphelt changes.

[solidscheme]

All this talk about nerfing pine and I just want to survive in the corner without having to worry about a certain death set up that involves just tossing pine and quick scoping me for the win. Yes I want unblockables nerfed to a point where it's at least a hell of a lot more viable to escape them or just remove the unblockable property of riffle stance but in turn buff it's overall utility. Elphelt's nade is pretty ridiculous but I don't feel the need to explain to go into detail when Fefnir already explained why it's just pure nonsense.

It's the same when you deal with lil eddie (but with more options and eddie takes one for the team when counter hit).

[GKHiryu]

I wish I got into this series sooner so I could know exactly what you mean, as this is my first Guilty Gear experience. Did those games come out before net updates/patching became a thing?

 

As for your Bedman buffs, I'd love most of those, and/or maybe if you can call deja vu tasks in mid-air... but holy hell if Task A/A' didn't disappear on block that might be kinda nuts as you said.

 

They did. Well technically +R didn't, but it was a lost cause released only a year before arcade Xrd (or was it even less than that? My memory fails me). It's a shame really, as I believe AC+R was the definitive GG. Still, the ways you could mix the opponent up using FRCs alone were crazy and nigh-unreactable. With proper training mode grind and/or maybe some manual talent, anyone could unleash amazing setplay. At the same time the neutral game was as skill heavy as it gets. Well, maybe Eddie required mostly manual except for top level play, but by now I'm pretty sure half of ASW team is furiously fapping to anything Zato/Eddie related.

 

Task A/Prime not vanishing on block is way too much.  The rest sound good though.  I myself really want air Deja Vu to become a thing.

I know it sounds like a lot, in fact I'm willing to agree that as the projectiles are now, this change alone would instantly make Bedman a much stronger character and a scrub killer at that. But consider this - projectiles that don't disappear on your block and force your opponent to respect you way too much are not uncommon in GG. If they just changed it so 236+P throws Task A as we know it and 236+[P] throws Task A with startup of A' and with an additional effect, wouldn't that be awesome AND balanced? Besides the move already whiffs a lot of times and against many moves/characters and has only 1hit of durability.

 

Yes, there's a chance that I simply played against Faust/Elf one too many times and I'm sick and tired of little Faust/pineberry forcing me to halt ground offense while my stuff disappears if a child farts in Nigeria. However, as a Testament player I see this change as one that would make Bedman strong, but not in any way OP.

[rubedo777]

What you just said doesn't make any sense. Zato can drive a player into the corner with eddie, (while still being able to drill and do all sorts of anti-airs) but having to time and adjust which height to throw a pine is OP? lol I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing it. Here's another: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jApXZlgPwkE (Ogawa vs. Koichi)

You just need more practice.

 

You are being pretty selective in your linking...why you link Ogawa vs Koichi but not Ogawa vs Sharon? Sharon played this better than Koichi and really shows why Elphelt is a problem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwOQui95_3Y