[Xrd] News & Gameplay Discussion 2 - Console is Out!

[Dreiko]

I hope they make Sin's 2P into  a normal that can't be low-profiled by moves such as Sol's 2D. Sin's abare is already bad enough (or food-heavy if you wanna use his DP since you have to cancel it to not get punished on hit) and he needs some kind of option for poking out of pressure.

[TD]

Bb burst being a bad thing does depend on the character you play and who you're fighting. A rushdown character like Ragna would be annoyed dealing with a burst, but what if he is fighting a terumi, of whom his (ragna's) offensive neutral is arguably better? Likewise, most zoners in the game won't really care whether the burst is baited or not unless they really need to be in the foe's face for some reason.

For a General perspective I think bb burst is very balanced. First off it is pretty much one per round and change on average - like gg, it's dependant on time, so burst gained equates to how long a round lasts. Second, it gives both players full chance to get in with no penalty except the defender losing out on overdrive; this again could go either way depending on the matchup (no one wants to burst a nu midscreen really, because she'll just start up again). Bursts can put the offender in an airtech situation, letting them recover faster and possibly get in on an unprepared burstee. If they are baited, foe is in for some serious pain (insert relevant YouTube video here), since in bb starting with most characters best starter usually equals plenty of damage. For these reasons, I do not think bb burst as it currently is should be the focal point of bad balancing decisions. Not to mention a defensive burst helps everyone out by offering full screen carry, an excellent form of (situational) screen control for rushers and zoners alike.

[Maho]

So smart play can't be used by the one attaking I guess?

GG has overwhelming offense, burst being a bit stonger wouldn't change that too much, also another thing that could balance a better burst would be for it to recharge slower, as of now it recharges quite fast (and the same is true for BB).

 

The thing that make CT burst bad was it had armor instead of invincibility which made what you're saying possible (now RC is a thing but meter wasn't as plentiful in CT as it has been in later versions), and yes that's bad. The variable startup was interesting though, combined with invicibility it might have been a good mechanic.

 

lol you're mistaking legit burst baits with terrible burst attempts. Burst safe combos in CP play a smaller role in general compared to GG and P4U, where you do not need to sacrifice combo damage or oki in order to make a burst whiff.

What? you're saying in BB  "you do not need to sacrifice combo damage or oki in order to make a burst whiff."? How do you do that?

 

 

For OD uses, yeah that's character specific and not all the cast benefits from it equally, it's valuable for all my character though, Azrael has strong OD combos, Tager has OD into GETB and Koko has OD Black Hole.

 

As for harder punishes, it might be character specific but you have a lot more time to punish and though can use your best starter most times, which isn't the case in GG.

With Leo I sometimes get really bad damage (blocked a burst not too close then getting 5K fS instead of 5K cS), with my BB chars, a bait burst always results in strong punishes, but like I said, maybe it's a matter of characters.

 

But they won't probably change anything burst related outside of the YRC OS I think, and even if I'd like a bit better burst, at least it would remove the worst offender from the game.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

GG already has plenty of defensive options, so it's not a matter of the attacking player not having to play in a smart manner. It's more in the way of how the tool itself is used. I regularly see BB players just blow their Burst immediately after getting hit at round start with no real penalty for it, even at high levels. It just seems way too easy and mindless to use.

[Maho]

It's pretty funny that you say so because in France, we call bursting on the first hit a "GG burst", because bay in the day of old GG, that was a common way of using burst (and it's still is from the matches I get online), and I have to say this appeared in BBCP when the burst was made to recharge over time like in GG, it was really not the case in CS and obviously even more in CT.

[Tong]

What? you're saying in BB  "you do not need to sacrifice combo damage or oki in order to make a burst whiff."? How do you do that?

I meant in GG and P4U.

[TD]

Immediate burst maximizes the amount of bursts you can get in a given match. How many more bursts given would likely depend on some math that I do not feel like doing, but imagine that this is why time based bursts are used in such a manner.

[Maho]

Yeah that and also really few people will try to bait immediate burst unless you know the opponent does it everytime, near death bursts are clearly something you'll want to bait more often.

 

I meant in GG and P4U.

Ok I misunderstood, must be character specific though because with Leo outside of YRC OS, I have to give up on the combo to bait the burst, and I don't remember having so much burst safe combos in old GGs also.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Most of the time in GG, even if you can't do the exact same combo, you can make some slight modifications to your combo to compensate and bait effectively. The majority of the time, this isn't even an option in BB; you have to make a hard read and jump cancel or RC much of the time, which has inherent risk.

 

Near death Burst is pretty obvious in any game, so I'm not really counting that here, as it's a different type of mental scenario.

 

The funny thing to me is that first hit Burst is way more effective in BB than it is in GG, given how much more difficult it is to bait them. You will still see some players do it in order to avoid losing momentum early, basically going off the other player's assumption that you won't Burst early, so no need to bait. It's more nuanced. GG also has OTG Burst, which is good for stopping overly aggressive wakeup pressure with much less risk.

 

Leo is not really a typical GG character, his combos tend to be more ground based and use his rekkas a lot, which makes it more difficult to bait with him.

[Maho]

I agree with the fact that immediate burst is better in CP than in Xrd, but that's pretty obvious as the defensive burst is better overall, as for the fact that you have to hard read the burst in BB most times, I don't see the problem with that, it's just mindgames. But well Xrd burst is as the game is, it favors the attacker a lot more, I can understand that people like that, because that's probably why most GG players like the game.

 

As for Leo, I know he isn't a typical GG character, I have been playing from GG from X, but still for exemple I played a bit of Sol in Xrd at first, and for exemple take his RC bnb into bandit bringer then fafnir into the usual corner stuff, how do you make this burst safe outside of YRC OS?

[Dreiko]

Regarding GG burst, the actual hitbox of the burst itself is smaller by comparison and the bursting props you up some so it can cause bursts to whiff in odd ways and then you fall into a reset. As someone who adjusted to GG from being a BB player without any GG experience, it was very weird adjusting to the gimpy-feeling bursts in GG and even outside of them being grab-vulnerable, they caused me a lot of deaths due to my being accustomed to how big a burst's hitbox is in BB and bursting in occasions where the burst whiffs (usually due to the burst elevating me some) but my foe's normals don't.

[Tong]

Immediate burst maximizes the amount of bursts you can get in a given match. How many more bursts given would likely depend on some math that I do not feel like doing, but imagine that this is why time based bursts are used in such a manner.

It also maximizes your chances of losing the round pretty quickly lol.

I'd say early burst is more advantageous to setup characters like Rachel, Kokonoe and others who can control the pace of the match, since they can pretty much lame it until the Burst is available again. But for characters like Ragna, who has arguably one of the best defensive options in the game, and Tager, or others that get interesting metered options at the latest stages of the match, it's better to just hold onto the Burst. Hakumen is another good example because he gets so much mileage out of his OD.

[Dreiko]

Early burst and immediate burst are two different things. Bursting early is fine but bursting instantly even if what you got hit by won't lead to any good oki is dumb. You can even burst to keep someone cornered and maintain momentum if your char has trouble getting in or dealing with neutral but  that and just bursting basically any and all hits as soon as possible without any thought is very bad and shouldn't be done. Only exception to this is if you're fighting Valkenhain or something and anything-everything he does ends in the unreactable 50-50s which you might as well burst out of asap. Though even there, you may wanna sacrifice some of your life to get his wolf gauge to run out more so he'll be easier to catch once you get him off you with the burst.

[Destin]

Maho where are you in France?

I have never felt bursts weren't strong enough, Jesus they are so good! If I am forcing multiple jump p combos every time I have a burst, that's not a horrible situation...

[Maho]

Like it says in my profile, I'm currently living in Dax, a small town in the south west of the country, about 150km south from Bordeaux.

[TD]

It also maximizes your chances of losing the round pretty quickly lol.

I'd say early burst is more advantageous to setup characters like Rachel, Kokonoe and others who can control the pace of the match, since they can pretty much lame it until the Burst is available again. But for characters like Ragna, who has arguably one of the best defensive options in the game, and Tager, or others that get interesting metered options at the latest stages of the match, it's better to just hold onto the Burst. Hakumen is another good example because he gets so much mileage out of his OD.

I do agree with your first sentence. While I'm not factoring anything more situational (like who actually needs to burst when), I agree with the second part as well. My point was only that if the burst is based on a meter filling up over time, it would be sensible to use it earlier rather than later because it leaves you possibly vulnerable next round just as bursting too early would. It's all situational though: characters, positioning, health, meter, etc all play a role in when to burst.

Also besides kokonoe, most rushdown have a defensive mechanism to use outside of burst as you said, while most zoners are on the opposite side and usually are in much better straits to just get the foe off of them should their attempts to zone fail somehow.

[rayplay]

It was briefly brought up before but I wanna bring it up again; Has anyone had issues of random inputs coming out? Said inputs being burst, RCs, and possibly IK mode? I thought it was my pad but I tried it on a second one and it still happens, and on multiple different setups. It's not common, but it's happened enough times for it to be a problem if it does actually exist. I'd consider it just being input errors but I've seen it happen in far too much for me to keep believing that. 

[DeadlyCreampuff]

I have that happen in bad connections, for some reason when it gets bad it has difficulty understanding what order I did buttons in, so instead of gatling 2k, 5S, 5H I suddenly get YRC instead. I've never had on that wasn't related to buttons I pressed though, so if you get a burst without ever touching dust it might be something else.

[fishnet]

I'd love to see air Task C beating nobiru... More range on dust would be golden, but at least we can always go for j.D if we need them overheads. Can't really agree on clock overdrive needing buffs. It's good even with the range it has. BE lacks in so many other areas that changing the overdrive should be very low on priority list.

 

BE with faster airdashes, that would be too awesome. I think even if they made them just a bit faster, by 4 or 6 frames, a lot would change. BE's air pressure would be much harder to AA and thus people would have to respect him more. Who knows, maybe that alone would make the salt flow.

 

What do you mean with "DV less telegraphed"? As in make the deja vu activation motion faster, or the release of attack from the seal? I'd agree to some very slight changes to hitbox/frame data of DV ground C, but deja vu mechanics seem to work very well in their current form. Changing them would be very risky.

When I said "Deja Vu should be less telegraphed", I said this after seeing Bedman's main game plan: Confusion. To be less obvious, Deja Vu activation symbol needs to lose that bright green color http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/images/2/2f/GGXRD_Bedman_DejaVu.png , slightly speed up the activation and the sound effect volume should be a lot lower. It's supposed to be a surprise tool. Think of the subtle way Testament summons an Exe Beast.

[king of heart]

Anyone managed to capture the Tokaige 2015 stream ?

The top Online player is an Elphelt user and only one Pot managed to beat him.

He easily defeated Satou and Nage.

[rubedo777]

When I said "Deja Vu should be less telegraphed", I said this after seeing Bedman's main game plan: Confusion. To be less obvious, Deja Vu activation symbol needs to lose that bright green color http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/images/2/2f/GGXRD_Bedman_DejaVu.png , slightly speed up the activation and the sound effect volume should be a lot lower. It's supposed to be a surprise tool. Think of the subtle way Testament summons an Exe Beast.

 

I'm not sure where you got the idea that dejavu is supposed to be a surprise. I think the purpose was to allow you to do "copies" of the move from different parts of the screen while being free to move yourself, to control space and lock down the opponent.

[Dreiko]

Dejavu is just projectiles you use for lockdown not unlike Ramlethal's swords. They're not traps, they're just stuff to throw out to make people block and do long blockstrings or tricky oki stuff on them. If anything needs buffing it's how much blockstun they do or something, not how sneaky they are.

[MasterXDrake]

Zato needs to be nerfed hard. Hes just so dumb

[GKHiryu]

When I said "Deja Vu should be less telegraphed", I said this after seeing Bedman's main game plan: Confusion. To be less obvious, Deja Vu activation symbol needs to lose that bright green color http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/images/2/2f/GGXRD_Bedman_DejaVu.png , slightly speed up the activation and the sound effect volume should be a lot lower. It's supposed to be a surprise tool. Think of the subtle way Testament summons an Exe Beast.

I don't think you remember the roar EXE Beasts make :D Imo the way Deja Vu and Testament's garden gnomes are telegraphed is similarly noticeable.

 

I can't agree on your summary of DV functionality though. The animation itself shouldn't really surprise the enemy, as two major uses is creating extended pressure and zoning. What should surprise the enemy is the activation of the right seal at the right time. I wouldn't mind having the animation sped up though, of course

[WolfCrimson]

IMO the only buffs Bedman needs to his Deja Vus is:

1. the seals not being destroyed if opponents attack the seals. I'm ok if they go away if bedman is hit while they're being activated (which currently happens), or even if they make it so that the seals decay faster if bedman is in hitstun.

2. His Task A/A' deja vus not disappearing if bedman gets put into blockstun. Getting a seal out AND activating it requires work/possibly meter, and it does not have a controllable trajectory like Task A/A' do, it doesn't even follow the return path of the task A/A' projectile, just goes back to the location of the seal. It needs to be a bit better.