VermilionBird Posted January 7, 2015 Posted January 7, 2015 Besides, to my knowledge, Ragna knows two other Ars Magus': one to slow his descent, and one to make him practically invisible. Just another little note to consider that will probably have little to do in the actual battle.
danceljoy Posted January 8, 2015 Posted January 8, 2015 Now on another topic: In regards to Sol's power level in GG, I think people are blowing it a little out of proportion here. It literally took Sol hundreds of years to become as strong as he is now. Slayer is often implicated to be many times stronger than Sol is, even taking his Gear form into account; Gabriel may be in the same boat, being Slayer's rival. Dizzy and Sin have the potential to surpass him (heck, when Sol fought Dizzy in Guilty Gear X Plus, he explicitly said that he can't afford to fool around with her), and are close to being his peers in power despite being less than a decade old. Tyr could possibly win against him in a fight since he's an anti-magic tank who can absorb any magical attack sent his way and convert it for his own attacks, along with ridiculous transmutation abilities that allow him to disintegrate or create forms of matter--including magic--and the power to destroy a Gear ship that was as large as Zepp (which, in itself, is the size of a small country) with a concentrated energy blast when he fully merges with Fenrir. Raven is immortal and hasn't showcased his full abilities yet but he was capable of shrugging off a Gun Flame from Sol that destroyed several houses in Lightning the Argent. He then said to Sol: "Was that it? Your flames aren't hot at all", and Sol's shown to be a little nervous about fighting him after that encounter. He can also manipulate time and space at a level much higher than Faust's. Raven is essentially to Sol what Hakumen is to Ragna. We also have Bedman, who is shown to fight evenly with Sol and we still have no idea just how powerful Bedman truly is yet. Then there's That Man, who always treats fighting a serious Sol as a casual annoyance. Even in Overture, where Sol utilizes his evolved Dragon Install, he isn't able to do anything to That Man at all and only ends up exhausting himself. Yes, he wasn't in his full Gear form or using his true power, but That Man, throughout the entire battle, doesn't exert himself AT ALL and treats it like a game. If anything, he's far more notorious of holding back than Sol is, along with Slayer. I actually have no stand on whether Sol or Ragna would win since I know little of Blazblue, and I do think people are exaggerating Sol's power. In terms of feats the two have roughly the same amount of story material, I'd say even BB has more despite GG being older. However I have to point out some things in your analysis of Sol. "Slayer implicated to be many times stronger than Sol" - nowhere that level. Slayer likes exercise, Sol is lazy, neither are trying to kill each other. Their fights in the Story Mode can't be a basis to say Slayer is many times more powerful. Dizzy has a potential to surpass Sol and she defeated him in one bad ending in GGX. But this is Sol being careless and not removing his limiter. Keep in mind how powerful Dizzy is: in the alternate timeline she's capable of destroying thousands of airships in one Gamma Ray and a whole Mayship crashing into her only made her angry. In Xrd, Justice's Gamma Ray is said to have leveled Japan so at her maximum output Dizzy can fatally damage an entire country (Overture states her power is at least equal to her mother's). The only thing holding Dizzy back is her peaceful and gentle nature. Sol defeated Justice when he removed his limiter. Sol calmed a berserk Dizzy in GGXX without removing his limiter As for That Man, it's either he knew all Sol's weakness and exploits them (like Batman vs Superman) or he's just super powerful. After all, he's been observing Sol ever since. However, he's implied to be a squishy wizard and in the alternate timeline Drama CD, Dizzy is implied to have defeated him and imprisoned him. That Man didn't know about Dizzy at all and was surprised she existed. Sin's display of power is nowhere close to Dizzy's level, not counting his IK (because IK's are not meant to be 100% canonical.) When Valentine controlled him in Overture, he easily lost to Sol. It's also a matter of looking at different types of capabilities. Valentine is capable of rewriting the rules of the GG universe in the backyard, that's why she almost sublimated Dizzy. Sol and Sin would even be sublimated if Izuna didn't interfere. But judging from the story, Sol wins over her in combat. Dr. Paradigm is another squishy wizard with insane abilities, when Illyria castle was being attacked by Gears, it was Ky who was fighting while he saves his Gear buddies by freeing them from control. So yeah, canonically, there are many characters in GG that have the potential to defeat Sol. However, these characters have amazing feats by themselves and unique abilities that may turn fights to rock-paper-scissors. To compare Sol and Ragna, one has to look at the power level of the enemies they defeated or their canonical feats rather than looking at the characters that could potentially defeat them/has defeated them. Yes, maybe Sol can be defeated by Tyr but it doesn't mean he's going to lose to Ragna either. It also doesn't matter to point out Dizzy's and Sin's ages since Gears are designed to be effective weapons, making them incapable of reaching their full potential until 100 is illogical. Sol's age gives him experience but most likely his potential has always been there, he just doesn't want to lose to his Gear nature and made himself as human as possible.
Solhunter Posted January 8, 2015 Posted January 8, 2015 To clarify, my analysis of Sol was a reaction to the assumption that Sol is invincible and the strongest character in Guilty Gear bar none, when there are characters that are canonically capable of hanging with him, or have the potential or means to beat him. I also agree with you that everyone in GG has their own distinct strengths, advantages and abilities that gives them an edge. I was trying to convey that in my post, but I don't think I got it across all that well. As for Dizzy and Sin, I was pointing out that they are already pretty powerful, and will only continue to be get more powerful as they become older, since Gears are creatures of evolution. Testament is a clear example of that since he was originally a mid-level Gear during the Crusades and was stated to be much stronger by the time he tried to unseal Justice. Sol is another example because the reason his limiter is beginning to fail is because his body is continuously evolving and becoming stronger, and the limiter can't contain that power as well as it used to anymore, as was pointed out in Overture and an interview with Daisuke Ishiwari. Sin is a bit nebulous since his eyepatch is also a limiter, and the one time it was removed(when he was younger), it produced an explosion similar to his IK, so it's undetermined just how strong he is. As for IKs, yeah, they aren't 100% canonical in their effects( i.e. Slayer can't literally punch someone into space), though they have been used in canonical stories and side-material. In the Drama CDs, Ky has used Zwei Voltage to destroy a small army of Gears, including a Megadeath-Class(though his injuries, compounded by using so much power by utilizing all of his Overdrives, plus his Instant Kill, in succession had ended with his death, at least in the original timeline); Sol nearly used Napalm Death to kill his assailants after being shot but was stopped by Ky; Testament used Seventh Sign on Dizzy when her powers went berserk for the first time to calm her down; Potemkin uses Magnum Opera when he fought Testament in the erased timeline and destroys the airship they were fighting on in the process, and when Slayer first met A.B.A.(and had his reunion with Paracelsus) he used All Dead in his fight with her, which sent her and Paracelus flying out of Franco---while crashing through multiple levels of the castle on their way out---and over the horizon until they landed somewhere miles away. Jam, Chipp and May use their IKs in the Guilty Gear X Drama CDs. Yeah, May summoning the Jellyfish Pirates through her magic to help her is canon. Venom, Millia and Zato-1 used their Instant Kills in the Night of Knives Drama CD series; Heck, Instant Kills are verbally acknowledged as legitimate ultimate techniques by Slayer in this Drama CD. Baiken's IK Garyou Tensei is revealed to be canon in her GGXX Story Mode. And Sin unleashed an explosion, though unintentionally, that was similar to his IK in his short story when he was still a little boy. And on Tyr, I wasn't trying to imply that him being able to potentially beat Sol in a fight was an indicator that Ragna could defeat Sol. Tyr was part of my "There are people in Guilty Gear who can fight equally and possibly beat Sol" argument, not my opinion on the DB. As I said, Soul Eater or transforming into his incomplete BB form are Ragna's best recourse, since Sol trumps Ragna in most categories. And Soul Eater's effectiveness will hinge on whether or not Sol gets Soul Sinker. Since that means that not only will his soul be protected, he will also be able to summon his Servants.
danceljoy Posted January 8, 2015 Posted January 8, 2015 ^ There's also the consideration that Sol is a Prototype Gear. His potential may be different from Dizzy's and Sin's who both originated from Justice, the first "complete Gear." Dizzy is also capable of using ice, lightning and fire (maybe because of her weird connection to the OutRage) while Sol only uses fire so far. All command-type Gears in the series are also shown to be female so far, I don't know if that's a factor or just a coincidence. Sin hasn't shown other elements other than lightning (although the guidebook kinda confirmed he actually inherited it from Dizzy, not Ky) or a capacity to command other Gears but let's see in the future. You make a fair point on evolution, but I think it's more on adaptation rather than age (or maybe both). Sol likely remains stagnant until he faces stronger opponents. So yeah, if Ragna defeats him, Sol can likely adapt and just get stronger the next time.
VermilionBird Posted January 8, 2015 Posted January 8, 2015 Unfortantely, Sol doesn't have a 'next time' given the nature of DB's. Instead of IK's, if we look at the AH's of the BlazBlue cast, then we can see that they haven't actually been used in external materials (to my knowledge); which would question whether they are canon or not. However, given the nature of DB, I think that we'll see both IK's and AH's. Ragna's AH will be enough to kill Sol since it practically drains the victim's soul and devours it, something which I don't think even he would survive. That said, Sol could potentially kill Ragna with his IK, it just depends if the Life Link is factored or not.
joeboy185 Posted January 8, 2015 Posted January 8, 2015 I only have one problem with rags winning via azure/black onslaught. In cp story/arcade ragna was confronted by azrael and then the vision popped up when he activated idea engine azreal just activated enchant drugnov If I remember correctly ragna was taken aback by that since azreal was already so powerful and he had several limiters. In story he was advised against using it on azreal (and azreal couldn't fight him himself cause of the limiter preventing him from fighting civilians). The thing is even though he would have activated it I am sure azrael could still out speed/strength him. So if sol is stronger/faster wouldn't his soul eater ability be meaningless in the match up?
Arcus Diabolus Posted January 8, 2015 Posted January 8, 2015 I only have one problem with rags winning via azure/black onslaught. In cp story/arcade ragna was confronted by azrael and then the vision popped up when he activated idea engine azreal just activated enchant drugnov If I remember correctly ragna was taken aback by that since azreal was already so powerful and he had several limiters. In story he was advised against using it on azreal (and azreal couldn't fight him himself cause of the limiter preventing him from fighting civilians). The thing is even though he would have activated it I am sure azrael could still out speed/strength him. So if sol is stronger/faster wouldn't his soul eater ability be meaningless in the match up? You mean the Arcade ending? I dont think Ragna was overpowered there. Sure, he was surprised that Azreal had been holding back, but if memory serves correctly, I'm pretty sure Ragna was fine. Also, in the actual story, it never did escalate up to that point. Ragna was going to activate the blazblue, but then choose not to out of fear of losing control, pissing off Azreal. Ragna was going to continue fighting Azreal from there, but was tagged out by Kagura. I can't remember what Ragna did after that, he might have just helpped a bloody Bullet off the arena.
BlackYakuzu94 Posted January 8, 2015 Author Posted January 8, 2015 That's more or less what happened; Kagura took over for Ragna and the latter helped an injured Bullet out the Arena.
joeboy185 Posted January 8, 2015 Posted January 8, 2015 The thing is I believe he could have been overpowered. It seemed like they were equals but azrael only released level 2 drugnov he probably can level up several times. I only written that cause rags said 'its like you are a completely different person' when he unleashed only level two, azrael didn't seem scared at all lol. Anyway guys I just noticed, how do you even measure a 'soul' anyway? How many hits would it take for sol to die via soul eater. Would sol's soul be based off of his mental and physical strength?
Arcus Diabolus Posted January 8, 2015 Posted January 8, 2015 The thing is I believe he could have been overpowered. It seemed like they were equals but azrael only released level 2 drugnov he probably can level up several times. I only written that cause rags said 'its like you are a completely different person' when he unleashed only level two, azrael didn't seem scared at all lol. Anyway guys I just noticed, how do you even measure a 'soul' anyway? How many hits would it take for sol to die via soul eater. Would sol's soul be based off of his mental and physical strength? I dont think you can. It just might be the same "amount" for every person
LiveWireX Posted January 8, 2015 Posted January 8, 2015 You mean like, "how much percentage of a person's 'soul' per hit does Soul Eater actually 'eat'"? Because I actually never really thought of that.
joeboy185 Posted January 8, 2015 Posted January 8, 2015 You mean like, "how much percentage of a person's 'soul' per hit does Soul Eater actually 'eat'"? Because I actually never really thought of that. Exactly lol they never tell us this.I dont think you can. It just might be the same "amount" for every person See it isn't definite that makes it different that's why I say if you overpower him you can beat him IF a soul is based on mental/physical strength sol has a lot of that.
VermilionBird Posted January 8, 2015 Posted January 8, 2015 Well since Ragna heals himself with every hit he makes using Soul Eater, then that doesn't give Sol an edge either, it just means that Ragna can match Sol in that area. Besides, Makoto's soul is said to be incredible by Relius Clover, while Arakune states that Hakumen's soul itself is sky high in size. I'd hazard a guess at it being measured by experience, which means Sol would have a soul probably like Hakumen's.
joeboy185 Posted January 8, 2015 Posted January 8, 2015 Well since Ragna heals himself with every hit he makes using Soul Eater, then that doesn't give Sol an edge either, it just means that Ragna can match Sol in that area. Besides, Makoto's soul is said to be incredible by Relius Clover, while Arakune states that Hakumen's soul itself is sky high in size. I'd hazard a guess at it being measured by experience, which means Sol would have a soul probably like Hakumen's. Alright that puts things in perspective I forgot about how relius can see people's souls so there is a measurement. Hmm that is true that he can heal himself a bit but it will only be a threat if he hits sol more than sol hits him. Then again how much does he heal? If sol overpowers him how will he even have a chance to absorb much anyway? That only works if you block him or get hit by him. See to me 'absorbing souls' just makes this into an endurance test imo and that is another thing soul has (couldn't resist).
LiveWireX Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 There's also the question of if, in canon, how much he heals from absorbing a person's soul is determined by how powerful said soul is.
VermilionBird Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 Putting himself in Blood Kain gives him quite a large advantage since he'll be more powerful and get more bang for his buck. Considering that when he properly activates the Azure Grimoire, he's put into his Unlimited form... I dunno, as far as I'm aware, accessing his Unlimited form is canon for Ragna, but the Black/Gold colours aren't for Sol, which gives Ragna a hefty advantage when you see it like that - especially since he's in a constant Blood Kain. Also have to consider that Ragna has, practically, got four states: normal, Unlimited, beserk Azure Grimoire (i.e. the ending of CP), and the incomplete Black Beast part. Whereas Sol has normal, and Dragon Install. In terms of endurance, I think both Ragna and Sol are evenly matched because of Ragna's ability to replenish his health with some sucessful attacks, and that his Life-link with Nu makes him semi-immortal.
Tsuki Garyuu Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 Welp, soon we will find out if Sol will curbstomp this battle or time travel shenanigans and plot hole/armor magic guarantee Ragna the victory, lest he self-destructs instead. Wake me up when the world ends.
Poultrygeist Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 So how do you think Ragna is enjoying his last 24 hours alive? IDK maybe he's gonna find a way out of it?
Tsuki Garyuu Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 So how do you think Ragna is enjoying his last 24 hours alive? By going on the typical 3-way date between him, Noel, and Celica. And because this is his last day to live, he'll finally let Noel know that she's pretty much related to Ragna and Jin. Rachel will then appear to make sure that the ever-so-priceless reaction on Noel's face will sink in.
Solhunter Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 Yup, that was a badass fight. Sol came out on top, but Ragna made a good showing.
TPPR10 Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 Well, that ending was... honestly, I have no idea. It just happened like in an instant.
Leonard-Helsing Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 Was that a dust loop? I think I saw a dust loop.
Solidus-AI Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 My money is on Sol. He's just an overall stronger character in comparison to Ragna. Sure Rags ol' boy has got the Black Beast going for him, but Sol has got his Gear form. We even got a good look at him going "all-out" in Overture and Sol even stated that he has a form far higher than that. Sure Ragna doubles as slight comic-relief and Sol just hates everybody, but come on, Sol's kind of a genius. He made the Nox Nyctores of the GG universe sooo there's that as well. But in the end, we'll all see the final result when DB posts the match.
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now