VermilionBird Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 That episode really pissed me off. Jesus, the BB plot bits they mentioned aren't hard to follow. The fact they ignored Ragna's semi-immortality and the fact that the Black Beast can't be killed by ordinary weapons (GOING ON TO USE MATHS IN A USELESS ATTEMPT TO EXPLAIN WHY THEY WERE RIGHT)... ugh So done with DB right now, I'm fine with Sol winning, but it was for poorly researched, and bullshit reasons. Would of been completely fine if he won another way.
Poultrygeist Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 That episode really pissed me off. Jesus, the BB plot bits they mentioned aren't hard to follow. The fact they ignored Ragna's semi-immortality and the fact that the Black Beast can't be killed by ordinary weapons (GOING ON TO USE MATHS IN A USELESS ATTEMPT TO EXPLAIN WHY THEY WERE RIGHT)... ugh So done with DB right now, I'm fine with Sol winning, but it was for poorly researched, and bullshit reasons. Would of been completely fine if he won another way. You seem surprised? I told you all a few pages ago that DB is basically OOC Mugen flash anims for the sole purpose of being loud and over the top, and shows clear bias and inaccuracy. It's never been good at all lol. Anyway I'm glad Sol won, especially hilarious that Ragna's fate is sealed from just how bad BB's plot is.
NeoStrayCat Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 Yeah, like I said, I didn't take it too seriously, and we all know what would have happened, so yeah! Also, to make a statement on VermillionBird's post "The Black Beast can't be killed by ordinary weapons", and if I'm going by weird logic, then as it is...Sol's weapon, or himself rather, isn't ordinary as you think. (Or even the seperate weapons put together or combined from the Out-Range.) But what do I know, I already said not to be serious at the logic of this anyways.
Master Of Chaos Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 That episode really pissed me off. Jesus, the BB plot bits they mentioned aren't hard to follow. The fact they ignored Ragna's semi-immortality and the fact that the Black Beast can't be killed by ordinary weapons (GOING ON TO USE MATHS IN A USELESS ATTEMPT TO EXPLAIN WHY THEY WERE RIGHT)... ugh So done with DB right now, I'm fine with Sol winning, but it was for poorly researched, and bullshit reasons. Would of been completely fine if he won another way. Uhhhh...Sol and the Fireseal are hardly "Ordinary Weapons." If Valkenhayn can fight the Black Beast unarmed, I can buy Sol being able to hurt it. As for the Life Link, it only revives people later on, it doesn't stop them from actually dying. They exaggerated BB's story complexity (without even getting into the really hard bits to follow lol), but overall I thought it was pretty well done. We all knew Sol was going to win though, this matchup was in Sol's court from the start.
Solhunter Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 Exactly. Sol's weapon is a Magic Amplification Device that channels and maximizes his magic by absorbing mana particles, same as the other Sacred Treasures he's created(and the War Relics). It also had the effect of preventing Gear cells from regenerating. The completed Outrage was split because Sol found out that there was no limit to how much mana it could absorb , and he could accidentally wipe out the planet if he wasn't careful about wielding it. Not even taking into account that Sol and Gears are magical beings. Or that everyone in Guilty Gear uses magic or magical weapons. As for Blazblue's Logic, considering that Sol exists in a reality outside of BB's universe, and that magic is in his world originates from a completely different source (The Backyard), it's fair to say that he is outside BB's Logic. .
VermilionBird Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 It's immune to anything within Logic. Making it immortal to 'ordinary weapons', i.e. anything that doesn't utilise seithr.
LiveWireX Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 To play devil's advocate, wasn't Nine able to fight the Black Beast with her magic? And isn't magic in BB technically not based on Seithr?
Solhunter Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 No, Magic (or Ars Magus) uses seithr and is derived from the Black Beast. Sorcery, which is what Konoe uses, is what is outside of Logic as it doesn't use seithr and is said to be real magic. Valkenhayn is also outside BB's Logic because he was born from sorcery, which is why he can harm the Black Beast. GG's magic is closer in nature to sorcery, so it is perfectly viable for Sol to be able to harm the Black Beast. As for his Life-link (which was mentioned in their written profile), it again depends on what stage Ragna was in. They obviously took Ragna after he got the Idea Engine and but probably before Nu's rejuvenated herself.
VermilionBird Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 (edited) Material conflicts. XB and another source mentions the use of magic requiring seithr. Although, this latter source is most likely made redundant since magic and sorcery are used interchangeably in the English speaking versions. As for Sorcery and Magic, they exist outside of Logic which means that they can harm the Black Beast. Valkenhayn was supposedly born out of Sorcery, thus outside of Logic. It's not actually fully confirmed, there are only hints. They included the Blood Kain IDEA, they most likely took Ragna from the events of CP, not between CS and CP Literally, everything I've wrote has come to bite me back in the arse right now. Top job, Vermilion. Top job. Edited January 9, 2015 by VermilionBird
Master Of Chaos Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 You're assuming in the first place that the Death Battle or Sol falls under the "Logic," which is defined as "the fundamentals of the BB universe." But let's say for the sake of the argument that he is playing by BlazBlue's rules. "Magic," as it's defined by the BB universe, can hurt anything that falls outside of the logic, which the Black Beast is. Sol is a being who was remade into a Gear, which are creatures of mass destruction that are made up of and utilize "Magic" as it's defined by the Guilty Gear universe. The Outrage, which Sol's Fireseal was taken from, was a weapon made as an extremely powerful Anti-Gear Weapon. By both accounts, Sol should indeed be able to hurt and destroy the Black Beast. Unless you're going to argue that doesn't count that since the GG universe isn't the same as the BB universe, but if that's the case then why should we assume that we're playing by just the BB world's rules? If only one person's rules are in play, then it ain't a fair fight. Also, magic (at least, the kind that's used by Celica and those at her time, I think XBLAZE was different) does not utilize seithr, but the spiritual power that was present in nature. Again, Life Link does not stop people from dying, it only later brings them back from death as long as the other is alive.
Arcus Diabolus Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 We were never surprised. We all knew this was going to happen. One thing that annoys me is people, including DB, calling BB's script confusing or just plain bad. I disagree wholeheartedly with that statement. BB has one of the better story lines in games that I've seen so far, actually. The complexity is actually a good thing in my eyes. From day one, it had a whole history laid out for us which has only expanded from then on. It was really well thought out, despite some of the concepts being hard to explain out loud to another person with no prior Blazblue experience or knowledge.
D.R.F. Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 WELP that was fun GG we da bes The entire time I was thinking "they working Sol too hard" and then I get reminded that he actually wasn't working much[emoji14]. A very fun death battle to watch, considering I main them both.
Solhunter Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 I agree, I love Blazblue's storyline and its complexity. I like Guilty Gear for the same reasons. The problem is that the terms and other aspects of the story that confuse people, are more readily explained in external sources such as Drama CDs, Novels and Material Collection guidebooks, and these aren't fully available to the English-speaking audience save fan projects(which aren't always finished). That was why so many people were pissed when Library Mode was excluded from the NA edition of CP when it was localized since it would make the BB world much more comprehensible to those who rely solely on the games for knowledge (though, it will hopefully remain in CP Extend since they gave Guilty Gear Xrd that courtesy, likely due to the outrage Aksys suffered from the fans) . Guilty Gear is in rougher shape on that score since said-aforementioned materials are even harder to come by for its series in English. Which is why Guilty Gear Wiki and Gear Project are a godsend to GG fans who want to better understand GG's lore.
Master Of Chaos Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 I love BlazBlue's lore and setting and all that good stuff but saying it explains itself well is a lie. There's a lot of stuff that you would only get from the Material Collections/Short Stories/Novels/etc that isn't available to a lot of people, and even then it opens a lot of questions to be answered. It doesn't help that we in America don't get any of this stuff. I'm all for extra material that provides insight, but it shouldn't be require to go through all this side material to understand how things work at a satisfactory level. Back to the Death Battle, I just now noticed how they got one major detail completely wrong. Ragna does not turn into an actual Black Beast if he loses control of his Azure Grimore, but instead a humanoid replica that works on a smaller scale. The Black Beast is defined as "A failed fusion between an Azure Grimore and a Murokumo Unit." Ragna out of control is only one half of that. That doesn't really change much about the result, but it does (maybe?) make the prior discussion seem pointless.
Arcus Diabolus Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 I love BlazBlue's lore and setting and all that good stuff but saying it explains itself well is a lie. There's a lot of stuff that you would only get from the Material Collections/Short Stories/Novels/etc that isn't available to a lot of people, and even then it opens a lot of questions to be answered. It doesn't help that we in America don't get any of this stuff. I'm all for extra material that provides insight, but it shouldn't be require to go through all this side material to understand how things work at a satisfactory level. Back to the Death Battle, I just now noticed how they got one major detail completely wrong. Ragna does not turn into an actual Black Beast if he loses control of his Azure Grimore, but instead a humanoid replica that works on a smaller scale. The Black Beast is defined as "A failed fusion between an Azure Grimore and a Murokumo Unit." Ragna out of control is only one half of that. That doesn't really change much about the result, but it does (maybe?) make the prior discussion seem pointless. Actually he does. End of CP aside, where he gets really stupidly strong, his bad end in CS was him before his transformation finished. When he was like that with Rachel and Jubei, Jubei commented that they will have to fight another war, although it wouldn't be as long as the first now that they had Ars magus.
Master Of Chaos Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 I'm not saying Ragna wasn't a massive threat capable of annihilating millions, but he didn't meet the "technical" requirements to be classified as a Black Beast, therefore it's unknown if he is subject to the exact same rules in that form.
Jmyster Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 Honestly, once they were counting Sol's feats from Overture and outside sources, Ragna was utterly screwed (or rather, any small chance he had with soul siphon died).
VermilionBird Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 Except it's explicitly stated that the 'Black Beast' returned in his bad end. Hence why Ragna's species is unknown since he could turn into one despite not being a Murakumo Unit as far as we know.
Arcus Diabolus Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 I agree, I love Blazblue's storyline and its complexity. I like Guilty Gear for the same reasons. The problem is that the terms and other aspects of the story that confuse people, are more readily explained in external sources such as Drama CDs, Novels and Material Collection guidebooks, and these aren't fully available to the English-speaking audience save fan projects(which aren't always finished). That was why so many people were pissed when Library Mode was excluded from the NA edition of CP when it was localized since it would make the BB world much more comprehensible to those who rely solely on the games for knowledge (though, it will hopefully remain in CP Extend since they gave Guilty Gear Xrd that courtesy, likely due to the outrage Aksys suffered from the fans) . Guilty Gear is in rougher shape on that score since said-aforementioned materials are even harder to come by for its series in English. Which is why Guilty Gear Wiki and Gear Project are a godsend to GG fans who want to better understand GG's lore. But side material is still part of the story. To say the entire story is bad is to exclude all of it.
VermilionBird Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 I agree, I love Blazblue's storyline and its complexity. I like Guilty Gear for the same reasons. The problem is that the terms and other aspects of the story that confuse people, are more readily explained in external sources such as Drama CDs, Novels and Material Collection guidebooks, and these aren't fully available to the English-speaking audience save fan projects(which aren't always finished). That was why so many people were pissed when Library Mode was excluded from the NA edition of CP when it was localized since it would make the BB world much more comprehensible to those who rely solely on the games for knowledge (though, it will hopefully remain in CP Extend since they gave Guilty Gear Xrd that courtesy, likely due to the outrage Aksys suffered from the fans) . Guilty Gear is in rougher shape on that score since said-aforementioned materials are even harder to come by for its series in English. Which is why Guilty Gear Wiki and Gear Project are a godsend to GG fans who want to better understand GG's lore. The BlazBlue Wiki has being doing just as hard a job as the Guilty Gear Wiki in giving fans the information excluded to English speaking audiences. The entirety of the Bloodedge Experience series is on the Wiki when it doesn't even have any fan translations yet (thank you again, Zedar, for helping us in this endeavor), also, we have The Wheel of Fortune Drama CD information as well.. On top of this, we've done our best to get most of the Library stuff in, with only one or two articles missing. We've done a lot to make sure that external materials haven't been excluded from Western audiences
Solhunter Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 I think it has more to do with the fact Ragna's Blazblue is the "Body" of the Black Beast, meaning he retains its destructive capabilities and form. Nu as the Heart, presumably is what keeps the Black Beast from burning itself out from its own power. We also know that it's possibly to create a Black Beast with a suitable number of souls and a cauldron, as we see in Kokonoe's side story.
VermilionBird Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 Exactly. There quite a few ways to make/summon a Black Beast
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