Fighting games/ why am I lost? Please help.

[snake2243]

About 1 year ago I became interested in actually playing fighting games. I ordered Eight Arc Fusion Fight stick and did some mods on the buttons and stick itself.(I like to mod things, it's a hobbie). So, I want to get good at fighting games, by get good, i mean be able to lose in a match, watch the replay, learn exactly why I lost and what the player was thinking, and fix on my mistakes. I don't care about losing, I don't care how long something is suppose to take. As long as I have a goal that I know how and what steps need to be taken to work on them. I will always be happy. My first game was street fighter 4 AE after 4 months ultra street fighter 4 came out and I started playing that. I went out and read the shoryuken "how to get good at fighting games (read it twice actually)". I went on street fighter and started just practicing combo's. Over time, I learned that there are characters in street fighter that are not easy to learn, they are especially Unforgiving if you try to play them without having prior knowledge and fundamentals before picking them up. I ended up playing Guile.

 

As I was trying to learn guile I Went and started studying on all the games mechanics street fighter had to offer, frames, hit boxes, frame traps, plinking, mix-up etc. One day I thought to myself that i actually want to expand out and learn how to play other fighting games then just street fighter.(I mean in the fact of if I learn how to play Blazblue, then switching to persona won't be a hassle, I totally understand that a person should focus learning and getting good at 1 fighting game, there are those accstion of playing another fighting game.) I picked up King of fighters 13, king of fighters is pretty unforgiving in teaching fundamentals to someone who has no idea what they are doing (I studied alot in the meta of fighting games but other then that, not much.) Picked my "good beginners" characters and started to get to practice in training mode. I would for hours on end everyday practice getting my combos to come out, but right after that I had no idea where to go from there.(I mean I practiced my combo's to the point to wear I can hit it 30 times in a row with out fail, but when I go online, because I have not practiced in any other type of things my 90% combo consistency can go out the window because I can't get to/hit the player to begin with).

 

I wanted to learn how to do a fire ball game but programming the A.I to do what you wanted it to do to bring up the situation that you wanted to work on was allot of work, very hard, and on some levels impractical. I went over to try and play Guilty gear and everything went over my head. I picked up persona and once again, I felt at a totally lost on what I would need to work on to get good. Before this goes any further it should be worth noting, you will never catch me playing a fighting game online until I get down the 101 on how to play a game. Please do not tell me to go online, it's beyond stupid when you tell some one to go play online and the person has not even the slightest idea on how they would need to play their characters, how the game mechanics work, and has not even truly practiced using their character in training mode....That said 1 year has gone by (I have had a good friend teaching me how to play fighting games, I am very grateful for having me but when he would teach me to work on a certain particular thing, when I work on this particular thing I can say "I totally see how this is valuable and why I would need to learn this" but at the end of the day I always felt empty inside. I would then find myself jumping over to other fighting games just trying to desperately find a game where I can learn my fundamentals that I desperately need in the most convenient way possible. Jumping from game to game with no proper guidance is a giant waste of time. After 1 year, I was looking up at my ceiling and thinking to myself....."You know, there are people who don't know any where near as much as the meta as I do in fighting games, and yet in a matter of 2 months or less they can play way better then me". I sat myself down and thought why are people learning how to play fighting games better then me and they don't know anything of the technical stuff. Why do I keep getting borde of playing said fighting game and feeling like i am not getting any closer to "understanding" how to play.

 

I want to fucking practice, I want to learn, but for some reason it's just not clicking to me. I saw some video on how to play King of fighters. Started off with the guy saying "lets start by working on defense". He then goes over the fundamentals on how a person would want to utilize their normals to keeping the players out and to keep yourself safe. That's when the realization hit me, that I spent all this time trying to learn how to "Play" the character checking out there normals and seeing what they are capable of (I do study the normals of the characters). But then it sparked that this is but 1 of the fundamentals I need to learn how to play fighting games. Never did I think to utilize practicing defending myself through Nothing but normals and understanding my options and so I can learn my character's strengths and weaknesses. Theres a problem with this though, I went online and tried to fight against other players in kof13 trying to strictly use nothing but my normals so I can start learning the game. it's one thing to practice, practice practice, but i believe that to go out the window when I came to fight these players online. I would sit down and watch the replays, My guy would get bombarded by the player doing fast jump ins, getting me into the corner, I try to fight back trying to use my normals to give myself breathing space (keep in mind I know I have specials but I am trying to practice learning how to use normals....I think what this is refered to as footsies?). It was all pointless, the entire time the player would frame trap me, cross me up, condition me. This is hands down too overwhelming for some one who is trying to learn the game, and wants to learn via utilizing There normals to understand there character and muscle memory build how to use what normal and when. I spent 90% of my matches on the ground just because players would hit me up with the biggest mix ups. too much for me to handle when I am just trying to learn. I tryed to go into practice mode and record the dummy doing sertan things, but then I realized what I am doing is pretty slow and very impractical in a sense. it's kinda annoying to having to re-record the dummy to change doing something else every time.  Sat down and thought to myself "how can some one with out any fundamentals, practice fundamentals?". Never came up with a answer really. but then I came cross Blazeblue CSE. I went into the tutorial mode and noticed that this game straight up started talking about Footsies the universal buttons and how I would want to utilize Ragna's Pokes at max range. (allot of this stuff was easy for me to take in sense I understood about canceling recovery frames, doing specials as early as possible that way you can increase your frame advantage when you hit with the tip, Frame traps, mix ups, block stun, and rushdown.) the game started going over the basics on how I would need to defend myself via normals. Talked about cross ups, option selects, Cancels, everything.

 

This was the first game Where I trully felt like I can actually learn my fundamentals. Practice mode is very nice too, I looked at all my options and they even have multiply record play backs instead of just 1 playback I would only have in other fighting games. I am getting a very good strong gist of how I can Utilize these tools. I even like how the game basically told me "Spacing your hits, go ahead and practice it in practice mode till it feels like secound nature to you, but the real exp will be when you vs online". Witch makes allot of sense for me. I also Found out ragna is the ryu to the game so he will have a tool for everything that can teach me things about this game. I did noticed that this game is more complex then street fighter, and KOF, in a beginners learning fighting games perspective, but checking out the dustloop wiki, with the convenient frame data and how all the moves function for my character, I am actually really excited and started to believe that this game is the most "convenient" game when it comes down to learning and practicing fundamentals in training mode. So here is my question, guys for some one that needs to learn there fundamentals can you list off things that I need to work on. Please don't say "work on hit-confirming" Please reply with something like "Set the dummy to random guard and start practicing hit confirming, as a beginner the general rule of thumb is 3 hits to confirm, blazblue is a little different so you can actually pull off doing 2 hit confirms. When you get really good, you will even be able to do 1 hit confirms. but stick with the hit confirm that gets your combos off 100% of the time".

 

Or if you say "work on footsie" please explain to me how I could work on my footsie with ragna and what would be some good practice method. I want to learn fundamentals engrave them into my head, that way when I go online I can see what I did wrong and improve on it. (if I did not practice doing say a "combo" 30 times in a row, then I can't expect for it to come out in a match). Mortal Kombat X I noticed that i was lacking in my anti airs, Sense doing combos with Kano was so easy(In practice mode I did the strict 30 times in a row and start all over if you drop it) I never even thought about how to execute the combo's they just came out, which is good for me because now i can focus on something that need more attention to. I am gonna proof read. this long ass message. Thanks for any one that took there time to read this, I have a xbox and steam and I do have blazeblue for both, and I have street fighter on steam, kof13, kof98, kof2002, on steam (i'm just saying). Of course My focus is Learning how to play blazblue. If you have any questions, please hit me up. My steam name is snake2243, if you want me to add you just leave your name. But of course Ultimately I am expecting most people to post there replys in this forums. Any advice will help. but please add depth. Fundamentals that I can practice in practice mode with ragna before I go online and such. Thank you all.

[snake2243]

I just wanted to come in and say that I found that sticky on how to utilize practice mode. HOLY SHIT, that is a awsome thread, I am gonna save that thread and study it. but if you guys have advice for me then please please please don't hesitate to ask.

[heavymetalmixer]

I think I can't give an advive given that you've tested a lot in Training, and you want to train fundamentals generally so it's specifically in one game (I preffer to do that specifically for a character).

 

Something I think will be good for you is to train en MBAACC (Melty Blood Actress Again Current Code) training mode, it has even better options than Training on ASW games, and is on PC (there's no way to get it "legally" if you know what I mean). And well, is an underated and awesome game.

[mAc Chaos]

Break your post up into paragraphs to make it easier to read, or it is unlikely to get many replies.

[Tiamat]

Break your post up into paragraphs to make it easier to read, or it is unlikely to get many replies.

 

Indeed, it looks horrifying atm.  

[TD]

Even I wouldn't read this. And I have glasses, so you know I like to read.

Please do us the honors... Break this great wall of China into several smaller walls of China.

[edollarports]

This is amazing

[4r5]

Hi, I was bored and read your disaster of a post and attempted to pick out your points. The only fundamental commonality between all fighting games is that you fight other human opponents. Unlike CPU opponents, humans will actively learn against you, in real-time as you are fighting them. And also when you aren't fighting them, or even before you've ever fought them! Humans are also emotional creatures that will do crazy, unexpected things. By the lack of organization and structure in your post, I can tell you are very emotional!

 

You've found these broad and nebulous terms, arranged them in a check list, and are trying to complete this list. But their meanings are lost on you. I don't think you have experienced the ideas these words are trying to convey. You say, " I don't care about losing." That's great. So get off the forums and go play some real matches against real people and get some real experience in your head. If you're really all about not caring, then find your local offline scene, make a fool of yourself, and fight/discuss with the people who are witnessing your matches first-hand.

 

Fighting games are about winning over your opponent. The language (read: the game) that we use to converse against our opponents will be different, but our opponents will always be human and the objective will always be the same.

[Pomparomp]

Absolutely everyone is lost for a long time. I didn't break through to a level where I felt I could call myself "competent" until like two or three years in, and there's still a whole lot to learn.

 

Give it time and patience, you'll get there.

[SoulGuitarist]

Should play a game with a solid tutorial. I'm mostly referring to Skullgirls and Guilty Gear Xrd -SIGN-.

 

Skullgirls tutorial does a fantastic job at covering the fundamentals of the fighting game genre such as neutral, defense and from what I recall, basic combos, theory as well as ways to manage your meter. As for the character tutorials, they are kinda lacking for competitive play but give you the overall idea how you should play your character and allow you to experiment with various things.

 

GGxrd has a very simple tutorial. Mostly covering basic thing such as movement (Hold forward to walk forward. Hold Back to walk backwards. You are now a pro!) and explains the mechanics exclusive to GG. The Challenge mode though is absolutely FANTASTIC. Gives you some really solid combos that are similar to old JP top level play. After that, you go and see how you use that character in actual matches and go on improving from there. 

 

From what I can gather from your post, You seem to understand the fundamentals but lack an idea on how to apply them. That's where grinding out sets come into play. Keep on playing against people and experiment. If you loose and learn something, it's a win. If you loose and not learn anything, it's a loss. 

 

The "How to use Training mode" thread is very good like you said. There is a common misconception where most players say "It's about how much time you spend in training mode. The longer you spend, The better you get." That is untrue (At least in my eyes). What matters is the QUALITY of what you learn with the time you spend and understanding on how to actually utilize it.

 

I'm sorry if I completely have the wrong idea and I'm not close to answering you questions (In class right now. I skimmed it and gathered what I could from your post) but keep at it! 

 

Another thing to mention though is to have fun! Learning a game competitively becomes much easier when you enjoy the game alot! 

[gli]

"You know, there are people who don't know any where near as much as the meta as I do in fighting games, and yet in a matter of 2 months or less they can play way better then me". I sat myself down and thought why are people learning how to play fighting games better then me and they don't know anything of the technical stuff.

 

What is your end goal? Having a clear endpoint to work towards will help not only yourself, but for others trying to reply with their own advice.

 

If your goal is to make "correct" decisions from a fundamental perspective, then it will necessarily involve playing other players without knowing a clear answer at first.

You use casual matches to determine the holes in your own play. How you determine what needs fixing is as complex as you want it to be.

 

Remember, fundamentals isn't just about normals, defending, and hit-confirming. It's also the application of those tools keeping in mind the risk/reward of using those tools.

 

What I mean is, a good/bad decision cannot be determined without the HUD.

If you took away the numbers / lifebars / status info. it's really hard to judge what is helping you win and conversely, what is making you lose.

 

I hope this helps :V

[Hollysmoke]

I'm okay with helping people out or teaching them things, really, I am. However, as the proud owner of a pair of eyeballs, that really hurts to read.

 

That being said, you also seem to be going from game to game to game before truly learning the intricacies involved with each. There's a cyclic nature to learning GG that I like to use when learning a new character:

 

Step 1: Do the Mission Mode in Xrd. This teaches you fundamentals from movement to system mechanics. Yes, you know how to move left and right but do you know what your character of choice's movement options are compared to others? 

 

Step 2: Challenge Mode. This will teach you some basic combo routes while testing your execution (if you need help on that end). Clearing the challenge mode completely is also a confidence booster because it means you're able to play the character as needed. Although there's a lot of gimmick-y shit (hence, challenge), it also gives you a lot of BnB knowledge (IE Zato's challenge mode teaches you to set up unblockables).

 

Step 3: Play with people. Try shit out. Make mistakes (it's okay). From your mistakes, you can go back and practice what you're messing up. Are you dropping that BnB you learned from Challenge Mode? Go figure out why or practice it some more. It's important at this point that you realize that you'll make mistakes. We all make them (anyone who says otherwise is full of shit). The experience comes from learning from those mistakes and not doing it again.

[snake2243]

Hey guys, I read your reply's and added paragraphs to them, sorry about that. I did go through and read everyone's comments. 

[Airk]

People gave answers to a bunch of questions, but not what I felt was the most practical one, which is, basically, "How do I footsie with Ragna?" or rather "How do I practice footsies with Ragna?"

 

So I shall attempt to give you "Ragna Footsies 101".  The first thing you'll notice about this stuff is that I'm recommending using a CPU dummy a lot.  Honestly, a real person would be better, but if you're like most people, you want to develop some VAGUE sense of knowing WTFISGOINGON before you fight real people.  The reason you are using a CPU dummy and not a generic training dummy is that footsies is all about space and movement, and if your opponent is standing still, you can't learn it. So:

 

Your 5B is awesome.  Learn exactly how far away you can be and still hit with it, and practice using it on a training dummy (probably a CPU dummy) to learn to hit with it at max range and what you can then DO. 

Practice using 5B and then confirming to either 5C (if hit, and in range) or 2B (if blocked and in range) or, if not in range for either, just do Dead Spike. (Again, you can use a CPU opponent for this, or even just practice dashing up to a training dummy on random block)

Also practice using 2A (and 5A, but mostly 2A) to protect your space inside of 5B range - you'll need to at least use a CPU dummy for this.

Practice using 6A and 5A to anti-air opponents who jump at you.  Once again, your best bet to practice this is to just set the training dummy on a high level of CPU and just focus on anti-airing.

Practice your air movement - this one is tough, and basically just involves keeping in mind what you are doing so you don't get predictable. If you double jump everytime you jump in, notice that and stop. If you airdash in everytime you get frustrated on the ground, notice that and stop.  Do you like to jump back --> airdash forward? Notice and stop.  Or rather, stop doing it all the time. All of those things are good (well, jump back --> forward airdash is a bit sketchy) but if you do them too much, people will punish you, so mix in some safe stuff - jump in barrier, or forward jump -> airdash back.

 

Your objective in footsies is to hit your opponent, or, failing that, to force them to block.  If you do that, you have "won" that round of neutral, and you get to do stuff while they either get hit or block.  So practice and learn where you can connect 5B from, and what you are in range for afterwards at any given distance (Doing 5B > 2B at max range will whiff 2B and you will die.)

 

Practice practice.