[CF] Tsubaki Yayoi Speculation Thread

hakimiru · July 22, 2015

Sorry for the trouble, but Errol made a small correction for me to the line:

>- Banana(632146B) is probably something that you set out and leave

This should be saying that the move is probably unchanged.

Could you please fix it for me in the copy above?

Thanks!

Kiba · July 22, 2015

Sure man. Thanks a lot.

chzchan · July 22, 2015

BOTH OVERHEADS YES.

Thank you so much for doing this.

Airk · July 22, 2015

I really want to know what: "--- 236x>blocked>followup 22D whiffs but puts up some distance" means.

chzchan · July 22, 2015

236X might have a bunch of pushback in the new version. What I am guessing is that the special pushes the opponent far enough away for the new 22D to not land in pressure.

That or the followup version of 22D does not move her as far forward as the raw version does. Could mean a ton of things.

Kiba · July 22, 2015

There's a few good things to note about Tsubaki's 22D other than the fact that's it's an OH.

- She's airbourne. This means that it could potentially be used an throw baits or even counter against mashers which is currently quite a problem for Tsubaki. Remember the tk.214D and tk.236D stuff I suggested a long time ago? Well this is a much easier method, providing rewards whether it hits or is blocked. 22B downs, but I would like to know what the effect is on CH.

- She moves forward. This makes it easier for her to stay in and continue to apply pressure where necessary. Combine this with the fact that 22D is +, even if it's blocked, you may have a pressure loop. Though what you will want to know is just how advantageous it is on block, and what the pushback is like on barrier block. With 6B being slightly minus (if it's true), this is a very welcoming change.

It will be interesting to see how players utilise this in their gameplay.

BatousaiJ · July 22, 2015

Interesting stuff.

Don't forget that nothing is final just yet but like Kiba pointed out, there are a a lot of good applications for the move.

I just hope it survives till the final version so we can get our hands on it to see what it can really do for Tsu.

hakimiru · July 22, 2015

I really want to know what: "--- 236x>blocked>followup 22D whiffs but puts up some distance" means.

Sorry for the confusion, it looks like I misread the 2nd half

Should be:

閃ガード派生Ｄ鎚をするとスカる、すかし派生で距離を開けるとあたる

236x>blocked>followup 22D whiffs, but if you use the pass-through followup to open up some distance it will connect.

Not too familiar with Tsubaki, so I hope that makes sense >w>

chzchan · July 23, 2015

Yeah so this means that 236A/B push the opponent far back so maybe she can't be punished by jabs which is pretty great in my eyes. 236C is version that has the cross-through attribute and it also vacuums a bit so it will leave Tsubaki in the range to still connect with the followup version of 22D in pressure.

Good stuff.

There's a few good things to note about Tsubaki's 22D other than the fact that's it's an OH.

- She's airbourne. This means that it could potentially be used an throw baits or even counter against mashers which is currently quite a problem for Tsubaki. Remember the tk.214D and tk.236D stuff I suggested a long time ago? Well this is a much easier method, providing rewards whether it hits or is blocked. 22B downs, but I would like to know what the effect is on CH.

- She moves forward. This makes it easier for her to stay in and continue to apply pressure where necessary. Combine this with the fact that 22D is +, even if it's blocked, you may have a pressure loop. Though what you will want to know is just how advantageous it is on block, and what the pushback is like on barrier block. With 6B being slightly minus (if it's true), this is a very welcoming change.

It will be interesting to see how players utilise this in their gameplay.

If it augments her hitbox in the way that I think it will, characters without a really good AA-structured 5A will not be able to mash out of it since their normal will whiff. What I am also hoping for is that this hitbox augmenting goes beyond this and actually works like Sol's does and just makes any horizontally-structured fast pokes just completely whiff like Ragna's 5B or Jin's 5C. That would be godlike.

Airk · July 23, 2015

I would settle for foot invuln, so you can mix up what they need to mash with 214B (body invuln) and 22B (foot invuln). The overhead is gravy there - it's more relevant as a "Yay, I can do an overhead anytime" threat. Mmm. Gauntlet Hades.

chzchan · July 23, 2015

I would settle for foot invuln, so you can mix up what they need to mash with 214B (body invuln) and 22B (foot invuln). The overhead is gravy there - it's more relevant as a "Yay, I can do an overhead anytime" threat. Mmm. Gauntlet Hades.

I know right? I can't wait for all the conditioning that will be possible now that an overhead can be done after more than just 5A, 2A, 5B, and 2B. Like look at all the conditioning possibilities:

5A/2A(2B) > Grab/Command Grab

5A/2A(2B) > 22X

Hardcore grab bait especially with the longer grab recovery introduced in CPEX. I wonder what the 22B CH state is like and if you can followup with 6C or not. Man this'll be fun.

5A/2A/5B/2B > 6A

5A/2A/5B/2B > 22X

Even MORE hardcore grab bait because Tsubaki's 6A is godawful and I get grabbed out of it all the time. Now we get to use that to our advantage without committing too hard or having to wait for jump arc or having to deal with j.D landing recovery. Not too new of a thing since you can just do a delayed 5C or something else, but this just seems like so much fun.

5CC > 6B

5CC > 22X

Between 5CC and 6B without IB is exactly 4 frames which means that 6B catches jump startup. I am guessing that 22B will be at minimum 26 frames of startup thought I bet it will be more so this is a great place to condition people who like to upback.

6B{B}

6B > 22X

You can time 6B's followup to catch jump startup and it is a second low. Another great point to mix up.

There are definitely a bunch more but these stick out more than the rest I can think of.

OH WAIT. Also if the first few hits of the new 22X leave her in the air still, there will be a lot of potential RC shenanigans that I can't wait to lab.

Zouf · July 23, 2015

No one noted that our specials can be charge cancelled?

There might be some condition, because I find it extremely broken if it's the case, and it would change drastically the way Tsubaki plays

22X being OH is awesome. Being airborne is not always a good thing though, especially in BB with anti air moves. Hopefully it's fast enough to not lose to 6As/2Cs

Errol · July 23, 2015

It's the exact same thing as 22B is currently. j214X also retains the charge cancel it has on landing.

Zouf · July 23, 2015

ok, too bad then

chzchan · July 23, 2015

I was about to make note of that but I thought it would be too crazy if specials could be charge cancelled on block haha. It would already be crazy if specials besides combo-ending specials could be charge cancelled on hit, but if any of them could be charge cancelled on block that'd be like mad broken. And by mad broken I mean it is something I would not mind her having because pretty much every special (aside from 623C) would be +/-0 on block and why the hell not.

chzchan · July 24, 2015

Took me a bit too long to realize that Mugen in CF is going just be plus on block overheads for days and I will truly enjoy it. I don't think there have been too many notes on Mugen but I do hope they make it more worth it. Being able to use 22D an infinite number of times in pressure makes it worth it to me.

BatousaiJ · July 24, 2015

Took me a bit too long to realize that Mugen in CF is going just be plus on block overheads for days and I will truly enjoy it. I don't think there have been too many notes on Mugen but I do hope they make it more worth it. Being able to use 22D an infinite number of times in pressure makes it worth it to me.

That's an interesting way to look at it.

Is 22D even faster than 6A? If you think about Tsu's overhead options, 6A is also safe on block since we can gatling to a normal that's safe or even +.

The rewards ought to be better than the 2.8k ish we get off 6A off a raw 22D one would imagine so that would be good.

If the change to non-SMP 6C and etc sticks, Tsu's Mugen damage should increase considerably, although I'm not sure if we'll ever reach that 11k~ damage we had in extend again but it should be a lot more than we can get now with reasonable setups so maybe we won't use all our meter on RC/CT like we do now.

Airk · July 24, 2015

Even if 22D isn't faster than 6A, it'll have the following advantages:

A) Can come out in different places.

B) Longer range

C) Moves us forward. FFS, the number of times I've done 5BB > 2B > 6A only to be too far away for 5C to hit and therefore getting punched in the face for it... ugh.

Really hope this is useful.

chzchan · July 24, 2015

Yeah moving her forward is something that is really big compared to 6A. For bing a rushdown character she doesn't have very many things that keep her in her opponent's face while still doing mixups that other characters can already do.

It is plus AND it moves her forward so she will most likely not have to dash in before hitting another button unless barrier pushes her far enough away unlike 236D and 22D. I always thought it was kind of stupid that Tsubaki has so many things that push her away from the opponent compared to other characters. This is HUGE.

And then the other thing is that this is something that keeps her in AND is also a mixup. Regardless of how slow it is, it isn't a mid which makes a gigantic difference since her pressure is garbage and she is destroyed by barrier and instant barrier. Most of the time when you will be resetting pressure, you will be using mids to get back in since they are fast and her other normals that actually have low or overhead attributes are slow or have no range. This changes EVERYTHING.

Zouf · August 26, 2015

SKD's report on loketest

Tsubaki: New move looks…okay. Not sure why I’d need to be afraid of it. Overall looks pretty much the same, I played vs tsubaki in the red vs blue tournament at the loketest and didn’t really see anything cool or different.

It's on the main page but w/e

Edited August 26, 2015 by Zouf

chzchan · August 26, 2015

I'm guessing it is really slow and easy to AA or mash out of.

chzchan · August 27, 2015

YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Finally some actual gameplay footage.

Tsubaki got the hops. It doesn't look too slow, but it is definitely slower than GH.

Whatever they did to OD Banana's sound effect makes it sound like it hurts a lot. Or was that Izayoi screaming?

Pretty sure 236D has similar startup, but it almost looks like it teleports you forward instead of lunging at high speed. I have always wanted this.

New 22X as a distance closer after doing 6BB seems pretty neat. Almost all of her normals were barrier blocked and 22D could still reach. They messed up the confirm off of the bounce though, but that's alright.

Edited August 27, 2015 by chzchan

Airk · August 27, 2015

I don't think 236D actually 'teleports' - it just looks like it crosses up again, and there was some weird hitbox interaction there. That's just a guess though.

Also, after 6BB is probably a terrible place to do 22B, since it's the most obvious, but at least it reaches. Seems pretty slow though.

Hope they do something interesting with our old moves, but so far I'm not seeing much.

chzchan · August 27, 2015

Nah, the only reason why it crossed up was because Izayoi did her D teleport and appeared behind Tsubaki during 236D's active frames.

chzchan · August 27, 2015

Something super subtle that I noticed when Tsubaki did her 22D.

Seems like the move does a fakeout 6BB animation while she hops up. I wonder if it only did 6BB because she used it out of 6BB. I wonder if it mimics the followup normal of whatever you used it out of. If it does then that's pretty cool. To me it makes up for how ridiculously slow it is. We're looking at 33-36 frames here.