The Good, the Bad, and Ugly as Hell Baiken Matchups

[Shinjin]

honestly I just read the part about the combo, but yeah ^^ you get like 10 more damage by doing frc jD-combo for 25% more tension, so its up to you guys to chose how you spend it. I personally like to save it.

still a good write up by the monkey, good work at describing the range-games and the poking game.

depending on how the good defense the slayer has, your options after a knockdown will either be very very limited or, limited. like monkey said, bdc is really strong and can kill your mixup in alot of instances, as well as his 2p. If you want to use 6K for killing the 2p, be aware that range is key. Against alot of characters you can kill abare by pretty much doing just moves that are + on block (like 6K), but Slayer will effectively kill all pressure-extension with an IB followed up by a 2P. So you can either just take advantage of the fact of that you will most likely have the upper hand when it comes to positioning if he blocks you're mixup. If you wanna play it a bit more risky, using 6P as a counterpoke after +moves beats his 2P cleanly.

also using iad back jS is important to stop him from using mappa to counter you'r back-tatamis when he is a bit closer to you and you want to get some distance.

Jumping up and using jP can also be a good reaction on him instantairdashing, since it will in alot of situations stuff you're opponents jS, which is Slayers natural counter vs airthrowing.

effectively using counters is also very important in this match. Now the better the Slayer, the less they will use the moves I'm listing below, but if they do you should be sure to counter them appropiatly.

(on block)

6HS, Sakura

Mappa, Sakura, or IB punish

6P, Sakura (look out for frc on 6P)

2D, Sakura, or IB'punish if it hits you early into 2k 5s tatami

It's Late, Sakura

5D, Sakura

You can also, you kinda have to read your opponent to do this one, counter his 6K. Unless it hits really really really late, you'll pretty much always score a aircounterhit. Preferably Youshijin, but Baku is also a viable option if you want to use tension for no proration.

Bursting Slayer can be difficult as well since he has very burst-safe combos. So your options are either to do a downburst on the bounce after 5HS, the bounce on a jHS-counterhit (if you ate one) and maybe on certains j2K in his combos (you kinda have to know how his combos work to be able to burst on those efficiently). Imo, downbursts is the "safest" way to go.

using kabari is also dangerous versus good slayers. on close distance they have the option of jumping. on longer distances they can just use it to build while in dandy. They can either Dandy -Sfollowup or Pilebunker to clashit, and then cancel that into another dandy or 5P or whatever. Heck they can even cancel it into DeadonTime and if you pretty much do anything else other than FD-cancel, you die.

You're 5D is Dead on Time on block, keep that in mind.

Tatami without frc is Dead on time on block, keep that in mind.

Using 2HS in pressure comes with a risk. It is guaranteed SB into 2P 5K (into Dead on Time).

Buuuuuuuuuut most of this stuff is stuff you only have to worry about in Japan.

[Hellmonkey]

Haha yeah its always nice playing against that level since i have to actually be creative. There are so many ways that slayer can be effective in this matchup its hard to specify exactly how baiken should approach it besides cautiously. Btw you can counter almost all that you can with sakura with a buffered ouren or mawarikomi throw as long as he isnt on top of you, i try not to use sakura much since i think its prorate and no knockdown without meter just isnt worth it. 6k is a pain in the ass to counter if slayer throws it seldomly, i just started blocking it normally and escaping. Overall counters are not that strong in this fight imo and its better not to rely on them at all than too much. (os counter fd jump is amazing, esp after an ib, if he doesnt get a chance to cross you up though.)

[Shinjin]

Haha yeah its always nice playing against that level since i have to actually be creative. There are so many ways that slayer can be effective in this matchup its hard to specify exactly how baiken should approach it besides cautiously. Btw you can counter almost all that you can with sakura with a buffered ouren or mawarikomi throw as long as he isnt on top of you, i try not to use sakura much since i think its prorate and no knockdown without meter just isnt worth it. 6k is a pain in the ass to counter if slayer throws it seldomly, i just started blocking it normally and escaping. Overall counters are not that strong in this fight imo and its better not to rely on them at all than too much. (os counter fd jump is amazing, esp after an ib, if he doesnt get a chance to cross you up though.)

Yeah, optionselecting alot at during the defensive play is awesome I miss playing and hanging out with the GG-guys in Japan/Kansai I'm having fun here in Sweden also, but there is something different between playing Tsujikawa(SL) regurarly and Yonasu(SL) regurarly Even though he is trying to get those Japanese SL-strats going as well!

It is a pretty even matchup though, and definitly doable. Use the tips & tricks that around on these recent posts and you should be just fine. Both me and The Monkey sit on alot of knowledge so keep on asking if somethings up.

[Yonasu]

there is something different between playing Tsujikawa(SL) regurarly and Yonasu(SL) regurarly

Awww.

Another thing baiken players can take note of is that a very good basic defense is a pain for slayer(probably everyone) to deal with as it forces slayer to use his moves that are easier to counter. 1f jump and good reactions to slayer dashing forward is a good point to start as it takes away alot of his mixup strength. And if he tries to anticipate jumps with 6hs its a free counter into whatever.

Good spacing is also evil against slayer as he is kind of clumsy, so learn the range of his airdash and fdc-bite so you know when you are in the red zone and when you have some freedom to poke.

So my perception of baikens gameplan is: frustrate slayer with annoying spacing and patient poking until he makes a mistake. Rinse and repeat.

Do note that these things bring the matchup to pretty much even imho, but the fact remains that if slayer hits you when he has 75% you could(should) die.

[Hellmonkey]

I wouldnt call the matchup even, if the slayer stays patient there is a good chance he'll find somewhere to get in. Simply baiken dies too fast and slayes doesn't die fast enough and can't really be kept under pressure. The lower the level of play the easier it gets for baiken though. But just like against pot and jam losing from 1 mistake or risk is rough.

[rtl42]

good reactions to slayer dashing forward is a good point to start

what are some good reactions in your opinion?

[ajinkris]

what are some good reactions in your opinion?

1F jump or throw him in return.

If the Slayer is any good, the throw will be option selected and a 5S will come out instead. Not sure if Baiken can punish that, but against any Slayer that was being lazy, he'll get a whiffed 5H, which should totally be punishable. Ditto to FDC Bite.

[Yonasu]

Yeah, those are good options. If you want to throw him you need to be sure that he ends up within your range otherwise you will get bit. Dunno exactly what you can do against a c.S that catches you in your jump, just make sure that you faultless it. :p

If you jump early enough I think you should be able to escape it and then you get away to safety and Slayer needs to get patient again.

Also make sure to force slayer to guess alot when he has okizeme. Learn how to do a anti-meaty counter, if you buffer it correctly you can punish anything used as a meaty with baku. Mix that up with fuzzy jump and you give slayer a major pain in getting damage in, it forces him to be very flexible with his timings or baiken gets away. Mix this up with regular block and slayer is mindfucked. xD

Do note that im not saying its easy playing like this but for me I feel its important to make slayer feel unsafe in his approach or things will get out of hand.

[Hellmonkey]

I love GG, I wish I had people to play with :[

[Hi-C]

Don't we all. D:

[Yonasu]

Move to Sweden. We need more baikens to hate (with love).

[Hellmonkey]

Haha, hopefully I get a chance to visit you guys in Sweden sometime, I've only been traveling to Japan in the last couple years :[

[Baron Samedi]

not to be a douchebaggot, but out of curiousity, why doesn't Baiken have her own match-up forum? seems like knowing your opponent is particularly important for Baiken considering guard cancels and what's punishable by whom, etc.

edit: because it's kind of hard to sort through this thread to get a lead on particular match-ups.

sorry if this is in the wrong spot.

[Hi-C]

I've asked that before but got ignored apparently... also Hellmonkey is kind of our know-it-all I think.

Also, the matchups have been pretty much covered I do believe. I guess making the sub-matchup forum would mean go through this thread and repost the data discussed. And not many would want to do that.

[Hellmonkey]

not to be a douchebaggot, but out of curiousity, why doesn't Baiken have her own match-up forum? seems like knowing your opponent is particularly important for Baiken considering guard cancels and what's punishable by whom, etc.

edit: because it's kind of hard to sort through this thread to get a lead on particular match-ups.

sorry if this is in the wrong spot.

wow totally missed this sorry.

if you have any questions feel free to ask, a lot of older info may not be valid and i doubt making a matchup subforum would be particularly useful for anyone since you can always get answers in here. As for which counters beat what, that's what frame data is for if you must find out without trying it yourself! (or just watch the better baiken players and observe their counter usage)

[rtl42]

two separate questions

1) i wanted to ask for some advice on the Chipp matchup: general approach(es), what to do at start-up, tips/tricks, and especially how to deal with his cross-ups. (his air throw or command throw, i forget which, seems to force you to wake-up facing the "wrong" direction and i was wondering if someone could just explain how to deal with that in terms of proper blocking.)

2) the first post of this thread dates back to 2005; would it be possible for Hellmonkey/Zakuta to salvage useful info from this thread, and then either make a new version of this thread or distribute the match-up information into separate threads in the match-up subforum? i would be willing to help, but since i'm not the Baiken mod i wanted to put the idea out there.

[tolore]

for the wake up thing, I believe any knockdown that leaves you face down(which is most air throws) removes cross up guard, this is how say robo ky can air throw and then do an ambiguous horsey cross up, all you can really do is watch for the cross up or guess. If he is just standing on one side of you you just have to block like normal, nothing special. I can't give any real general advice for the chip matchup since our chip player hasn't played for years and I don't remember it all that well. Just make sure you have good hit confirms, even really weak combo starters are going to mess up chip really bad, so make sure you make the most out of every hit.

[rtl42]

that's interesting, i hadn't realized it could be related to falling face down. I'll have to play around with that at home.

[Hellmonkey]

I don't have a ton of Chipp experience, but I did play a few good ones my last time in Japan. Avoid taking risks because his mixup is killer for Baiken, and make sure you land your full combos every time since it only takes a couple to kill him. In a ground to ground fight from neutral your normals are worse in almost every way, so try to avoid that since it's just a bad situation to be in. Chipp's throw is lower range than Baiken's, but his movement is so much quicker it becomes effectively longer range when used offensively, and using defensive throw becomes really difficult. I wish I could give pointers on the best ways to react to teleports or what range to try and bait his shoryu, but I feel if you focus on being opportunistic and above all patient the options you should be choosing will become obvious with experience.

I haven't been playing ggac actively for quite a while now, so I don't really feel comfortable doing a big project like a matchup subforum if it's going to end up half-assed. If I get to play regularly again I'll definitely look into doing that though.

[kopanabare]

My local competition is scarce and pretty much consists of a Dizzy, a Faust and a Johnny for now. Dizzy was pretty much covered by Shinjin a few pages back (thanks!), but I haven't found a lot of Material on the other two, not dated after AC's release at least. I understand I'll mostly learn through experience but some general advice would still be cool.

Oh, and I'm having trouble with my dustloops on Johnny, for now I pick him up with sp(p)d after regular gatling xx tatami frc in the corner, so he's doesn't drop too fast for the ad sd. But if I have enough meter to continue the combo I can only seem to pick him up once after the second tatami, the punch in spd to get him high enough for the airdash a second time doesnt reach, so I can only go for j.sd after that. Is there a better way?

[WindmanV3]

My biggest problems are definetly Faust, Order Sol and Dizzy right now. Maybe that's because I have only been playing for two weeks, but still, I have played against some FA/HOS/DI players, but they keep rushing me down or keeping me out to no end. I've heard various advice from people, but yeah....

Also, it's my first time posting on this forum, so I don't know what the etiquette here is, but I hope we can get along well.

But back to my question(s) at hand.

How do I go about treating each individual matchup? I've already tried to get in sometimes with an IAD Tatami, but this doesn't suit me too well against Faust. Against Order Sol and Dizzy it's alright. I do often get a fish in my face which stops my whole attack and I need to go back to a neutral game.

Against Order Sol, I simply need to know how to go about selecting which counter to use, as I have found out, this doesn't work well in my favor, because I often miss or choose to do the wrong counter. What is the preferred counter to use against Order Sol, and what is a good way to get in on him without him eating a chunk off of my life bar. (Not to say Potemkin doesn't do that, but I think I can do fairly well against him, since I am practicing with other various *beginner* Potemkin players.)

If these questions could be answered, I'd very much appreciate it.

[kaeru]

My biggest problems are definetly Faust, Order Sol and Dizzy right now. Maybe that's because I have only been playing for two weeks, but still, I have played against some FA/HOS/DI players, but they keep rushing me down or keeping me out to no end. I've heard various advice from people, but yeah....

Also, it's my first time posting on this forum, so I don't know what the etiquette here is, but I hope we can get along well.

But back to my question(s) at hand.

How do I go about treating each individual matchup? I've already tried to get in sometimes with an IAD Tatami, but this doesn't suit me too well against Faust. Against Order Sol and Dizzy it's alright. I do often get a fish in my face which stops my whole attack and I need to go back to a neutral game.

Against Order Sol, I simply need to know how to go about selecting which counter to use, as I have found out, this doesn't work well in my favor, because I often miss or choose to do the wrong counter. What is the preferred counter to use against Order Sol, and what is a good way to get in on him without him eating a chunk off of my life bar. (Not to say Potemkin doesn't do that, but I think I can do fairly well against him, since I am practicing with other various *beginner* Potemkin players.)

If these questions could be answered, I'd very much appreciate it.

Hi Windman, welcome to the board !

I'll try my best to help you out with your questions. But before getting into too many details per character, i have to ask if you've had a chance to read the guide we have here on the Baiken forum ? It's got quite a bit of useful tools that are worth trying when learning matchups we are not used to.

One thing that stands out that im sure will help you out a lot (unless you've already got this one mastered) is the "kire tatami". It's about getting an air dash with a tatami fastfall as low to the ground as possible and having the tatami come out and active in front of you as early as possible into the air dash. This is a great way to "get in" on any opponent who is not expecting it. It's not something to use mindlessly but it is an invaluable asset. Here is how the technique works:

the idea is to have the tatami input done before you even leave the ground, then do an instant air dash, and press K to complete the move. The motion is 2369 6 K. After you hit 9, there is a micro delay that must be respected before tapping 6, this is the time it takes for Baiken to get off the ground. Tapping 6 before that will make your dash never come out. After tapping 6, there is a very short time where your airdash is in startup and moves won't come out, so you also have a micro delay after tapping 6, before hitting K. And overall, if too much time elapses before you hit the K button, it might not remember your 236 from the beginning. It is a fairly easy technique when practiced, but it might take a while to perfect. If you already know about this then i apologize. You can also get another explanation of the move and the motion in the guide.

Kire tatami is vastly superior to just doing an instant air dash tatami, because it completes faster by keeping you lower to the ground, all while having active frames guiding your landing much sooner. It can be beaten easily if your opponent is expecting it, but it's definitely a great tool.

For your matchup questions:

Faust: if you are fighting a defensive Faust that prefers to keep full screen distance from you while pelleting you with items and scalpel attacks, this is going to be a very difficult fight. Learn your kire tatami, be sure to block the items and don't approach recklessly. You have to be patient and wait for opportunities. Your kabari(chain pull) can be very good to pull the opponent in little by little, and it's very safe on block if you don't use the follow up. If they air dash over your kabari you can do the follow up which you can use to easily combo Faust.

Order Sol: There may be better advice for this matchup with the other users on the forum, but for what it's worth i'll suggest that you try not to use Yoshijin too often unless you are very sure it will counter hit. If Order Sol is coming in from the air, you have to capitalize on Baiken's amazing 6P anti-air. If you are blocking on the ground, Sakura FRC is very safe and gives you frame advantage if your opponent blocks it. If you don't have the meter, you might consider just honest blocking. I like to approach Order Sol with my longest range pokes. Either Kire Tatami, or 2S, or Kabari, or even 2HS at certain distances. Be sure to get knockdown when possible and try to bait his reversal if they do it too often on wakeup.

Dizzy: I feel this is the match where the kire tatami will help you a lot, it lets you cover a lot of ground while moving through a fair share of her projectiles. Don't become predictable with it and use Suzuran to move through things if you need to. Suzuran is her command run that blocks high and meds (and projectiles). You can cancel Suzuran into sakura or mawarikomi as soon as you block a projectile to put dizzy on the defensive (sakura) or gain more ground (mawarikomi). Blocking a move and using Ouren can be very good to get in on her too, but don't do this one often because it can be punished very badly when expected.

I hope that is a good start to help you out. Many other users will have more useful information for you, i am sure.

[WindmanV3]

Nonono, not at all. I never even knew Baiken had such a useful tool.

I've been practicing the motion for some time yesterday, and I get the main goal.

You explained a lot of things I didn't even know about, like Baiken being able to use counters during Suzuran. Also, 6P being a good anti-air seemed completely new to me, even though it's kind of self-explanatory. I played Ky at one point too, but he isn't my main. He's kind of like a sub.

I think I can actually use this info to try and do even better from now on. I'll keep practicing. The world needs more Baiken players!!

Thanks for all the great advice~

[Hellmonkey]

As a side note, Baiken's 6P is a great antiair vs most characters, but hos and ABA have broken j.H hitboxes that make anti-airing normally almost impossible. Best answers to them jumping are a quick youshijin, preemptive j.P option selected with throw (j.6PH), spacing out with j.D or baiting them into a tatami mat CH.

[kaeru]

I didn't know that about HOS and ABA. I'll definitely give the j.PH option select a try next time i fight one of the HOS in our community. Thanks Hellmonkey !

Edited November 19, 2012 by kaeru
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