"Time to Make History" Dustloop Revamp Community Effort #1

[LunaKage]

I think it makes more sense in a character specific forum. Sounds too messy from a general forum perspective. It may be interesting to highlight an analysis in a general forum or otherwise more public form each week as well, though. Food for thought.

That's what I was thinking as well. Though I think the concept might benefit from starting out in a general area, since it would be good to gauge how well it would do. Once the idea becomes more accepted by the userbase, then we could spread it around the character subforums, and make it more focused on single characters and matchups.

[Tari]

@DJ_Blactricity:

Interesting idea, though requiring community participation when posting videos seems unfortunately likely to deter people from posting anything. Asking for participation is always good, though, and community discussion before a full analysis sounds nice.
 

@Myoro:

There was a point in time when we actually (in some cases, anyway) did create short combo clips and link them to the relevant combos. It requires recording/capture equipment to make it clean, though, and is often a lot of work to consider putting in early on in a game's life, as combos change quite frequently.

To be fair, though, many combos are settled by JP players by the time the games reach us on console anyway.


@Luna:

That may be something to consider, as well. Not sure it'd work too well, though, because I feel like a lot of players only visit their character subforums without actually ever visiting the general forums. A general thread could also just mirror all the analysis from the week, but that sounds way too messy when compared to the idea of a selected weekly analysis (obviously with a comment for players to visit their own subforums to participate :P ).

[skd]

That's what I was thinking as well. Though I think the concept might benefit from starting out in a general area, since it would be good to gauge how well it would do. Once the idea becomes more accepted by the userbase, then we could spread it around the character subforums, and make it more focused on single characters and matchups.

 

maybe i could see this flying, as a kind of test run, though i intended to just test this out on the izayoi subforum, lol

 

I love this idea, but I think you should change it up just a little bit. First, lay the ground work. Explain the concepts that will go over people's head first. It doesn't have to be an in-depth explanation because video analysis will show it in practice. If you want to facilitate discussion, don't post your analysis immediately. Instead, post the videos you will be analyzing early, and let the players try their hand at analysis. This lets you see common things players miss or don't give enough attention too. You can use it as a teaching method by picking videos where different parts of the game were emphasized or demonstrated well. This would work great for the critique thread as well. Any player that posts a vid would have to give their own self-analysis first. Others could tackle it as well. I think low level/mid level/high level videos would be needed. Maybe pick out a specific matchup, and have videos from each level. That way you can compare/contrast the things that go on at different levels.

 

thats a good model, i did intend to post the video that i would be analyzing the following week in the article to actually poll on what video i'd pick for analysis. i'd love for players who post their own videos to post it with their own analysis, but beggars cant be choosers. If they dont want to post analysis but only want other's input, thats fine. Not nearly as constructive (for them), but what can you do.

 

overall though, im relying on participation. i want to get people to participate, this is more and more useful to others the more people participate.

Edited July 29, 2015 by skd

[LunaKage]

@Luna:

That may be something to consider, as well. Not sure it'd work too well, though, because I feel like a lot of players only visit their character subforums without actually ever visiting the general forums. A general thread could also just mirror all the analysis from the week, but that sounds way too messy when compared to the idea of a selected weekly analysis (obviously with a comment for players to visit their own subforums to participate :P ).

Yeah you're right about that, I'm guilty of this myself, I only ever really check on the Noel boards unless I'm directed otherwise.

 

If SKD tries it in the Izayoi forum, I'll keep an eye on it to see how things go, and take note of how he handles it. If it's successful I'll add one to the Noel boards as well.

[Myoro]

@Myoro:

There was a point in time when we actually (in some cases, anyway) did create short combo clips and link them to the relevant combos. It requires recording/capture equipment to make it clean, though, and is often a lot of work to consider putting in early on in a game's life, as combos change quite frequently.

To be fair, though, many combos are settled by JP players by the time the games reach us on console anyway.

 

As much as I disdain the PS4 for it making the user pay for internet they've already payed for it does seem to be the console that much of the FGC is gravitating toward as of late. I would not be surprised, although I'd be increadibly salty, if Central Fiction was a PS4 and Xbone only. Now that's relevant because, despite my chagrin, I'm told the PS4 does one really noteworthy and useful thing, which is that it lets us upload gameplay far easier than we've ever been able to before. With this, the prerequisite of a capture card becomes optional and such a feat would undoubtedly become easier no?

 

Now yes, a lot of combos are generally found and established by the time the games reach ENG shelves, however improvements to routes are still found all the time and I feel like such a thing would be convenient to those without the luxury of know-how or time to research routes. Additionally we could use the input display to show them the pacing of the button presses. This work now could potentially reduce the number of those who have trouble conceptualizing or preforming specific routes or tricks. With this we could showcase even basic things for characters like the input for wolf break, or how to tiger-knee a specific special. Notes could be added to the video showing specific things like "make sure Ada is walking forward at this moment" or this is how "close/far they have to  be for this combo to work" and other nuances that combo notes do not easily convey.

[mAc Chaos]

Yeah you're right about that, I'm guilty of this myself, I only ever really check on the Noel boards unless I'm directed otherwise.

 

If SKD tries it in the Izayoi forum, I'll keep an eye on it to see how things go, and take note of how he handles it. If it's successful I'll add one to the Noel boards as well.

We actually have some ideas on how to address that, after discussing it over with some folks. But they're just ideas for now.

[Tari]

Ah, when I said combo routes were established by the time we got the game, I meant that recording them for combo threads would be more reasonable, since they'd be unlikely to have to be re-recorded later. :P

 

 

We actually have some ideas on how to address that, after discussing it over with some folks. But they're just ideas for now.

 

Sounds interesting, hopefully the ideas work out.

 

I'm pretty guilty of not going to the General forums myself, either. I can't be bothered to look through all the random discussion that has no bearing on my character.

[mAc Chaos]

All of these ideas and posts are great. Keep it coming.

Also, if you ever come across anything FG related you think is neat and want to show it to your friends, be it a post, a YT combo video or even a smart set of tweets, send it to me too. I might put it on the front page of DL.

[Myoro]

Ah, when I said combo routes were established by the time we got the game, I meant that recording them for combo threads would be more reasonable, since they'd be unlikely to have to be re-recorded later. :P

Ah crud, my bad. XD But yeah, re-recording shouldn't be too much of a hassle as optimization has become easier with the new combo timer system making combos more standard in general.

 

Come to think about it, we could show various reset opportunities, oki alternatives, burst baits, and distortion finisher damage as well in the "BnB" clips. It would also be neat to show things like the absolute max distance a corner conversion can take place from. (IE: at what point on the screen a Ragna can/should convert into 623D236C236C instead of going for a midscreen combo that just accepts that the corner will not come into play and does not make use of it.) That would likely require some way to measure how far one is in stage or something (I'm thinking maybe by counting the tiles from the wall in training stage to get an exact estimate? That might be tedious though.) If we did that we could make a sort of search where you could put factors like "combo from 5B" with "X space between characters" on "Non-CH standing ground hit" from "X or fewer/greater tiles in-stage" and out would pop the optimal combo for that situation. One could also highlight or filter out character specifics and such.

 

If I wanted to know the optimal confirm from Relius' 5A, on air counter hit, that was close and low to the ground from 60% of the screen away or further from the corner I'm facing, that works on Rachel, I'd not get something that stupidly specific, and instead get something like 5A/2A>2C>6C>41236B>5B>2C>j.C>j.236C~j.214B which works on everybody everywhere from most every kind of 5A air hit, CH or not, that you could expect to see. The damage from converting from CH5A to 6C or whatever have you would be neglegabe. Expecting a combo for literally every conceivable incredibly specific situation a game could generate would be ludicrous. Now if someone found a combo that was Rachel specific, could only be done at 60% of the stage or further or got a much better prize outta that 6C confirm, they could put that in the engine under those specifications too if they so felt like it.

 

It's an idea that needs a lot of polish but an interesting one I think.

[BlackYakuzu94]

I do admit, the lack of general discussion does prevent me from going to the general threads more often. But I really don't know what could be covered there that would give me an incentive to go. Maybe we should check out other FG forums and see how their threads are? (althought I heard SRK's are notoriously bad, like really really bad) 

 

 

I admit, I'm torn between wanting a community or an information hub for the site. 

[Tokkan]

I admit, I'm torn between wanting a community or an information hub for the site. 

But for a reliable and up-to-date information hub to even exist, it needs a healthy and active community to maintain it.

 

It shouldn't have to be one or the other.

[Amadeous]

I feel like if there's one type of "discussion" thread that we need, it's a matchup discussion thread.

I'll admit, I haven't checked most of the Matchup forums, but the complaint I've always heard is they're barren and out of date. This isn't really too surprising; if you're expecting one or two moderators to run a matchup thread, chances are they won't have information on the 20-30 matchups whatever game has. It's unreasonable to expect otherwise.

Then, when a thread has no info in it, people are hesitant to post (for reasons already discussed, I don't want to get into that), and a large amount of the Matchup subforum goes to waste.

I feel each character board needs a matchup discussion general. Players can post small bits of information and pose questions relating to any matchup. The moderators can then, ideally, find and test the relevant tech, and add it to the main matchup threads for archival.

I'd test this on the Jam forums, but I think it'd be better to try it on a more active game :p

[mAc Chaos]

That's already happened a few times in the Hakumen General Discussion thread. It's a lot easier for users to respond with a few pieces of information when someone actually has focused questions rather than just writing up something general just for the sake of it to throw into an empty thread. And eventually it accumulates.

[BlackYakuzu94]

It's not a bad idea, but the information would still need to be archived somehow.

I don't mind general threads, but it's pretty easy for really good information to get lost in the shuffle.

Update the OP with relevant info?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SoWL]

@SKD: That entire idea sounds excellent, and I want to see it in action ASAP. Moving the general video dumps to the matchup threads is one of those ideas that sounds obvious right after someone proposes it, but no one does for some reason. And hey, since this discussion has started from the ideas on improving the main page, why not post some featured matches (maybe a digest of the discussion) there, too?

I think we have Beginner and Mid Level matches covered with the critique threads, since that's much more direct. At the same time though, those are worthless if no one actually posts their matches for critique.

That's something I noticed happening in the Bullet subforums. I remember being all excited about recording some of my casual matches back when vanilla CP got released, because now I could post something in the critique thread and improve my game. Unfortunately, watching around 11 matches was apparently too much for most posters, so I got little to no feedback. I tried posting my matches a few more times with similar results, and after that, it was the good old negative feedback loop: I don't feel like I should post anything because there is no discussion, and there is less discussion because there aren't that many videos. I must admit that things are getting much better lately, as we got a few excellent posters in the subforum, but unfortunately, I get less matches recorded, and when I do, I don't feel like I should post them because the mistakes are obvious to me (mostly the input errors). I could comment on other people's videos, but there aren't that many of them, and I don't feel like I'm in a position to criticize other people when my own game is sub-par. At least I'm trying to contribute to the matchup threads when I get some good long sessions going.

[BlackYakuzu94]

So here's an idea; how about we make a general video/matchup thread? Most things about matchups come videos anyway and it'll be good to discuss both videos and the matchups.

 

It would also save time on posting literally every single match video to posting ones you feel have valuable info on the matchup.

[Tari]

"...and I don't feel like I'm in a position to criticize other people when my own game is sub-par."

 

This is a mindset that I think a lot of decent players have, and which actually tends to inhibit active discussion between players. It's probably going to be important to make members think of writing an analysis as a point of discussion rather than a criticism session. Not sure how we could go about doing this, though.

 

I tend to write a note in my posts somewhere about taking everything I say with a grain of salt (as well as welcoming people to correct/contradict me) to help alleviate my own conscience on that point. :P

[ZeroRaider]

@SKD: I quite like the idea. Ending simply video dumping and possibly resurrecting the long dead matchup threads looks like a big plus to me.

@Tari: Sorting out discussion/criticism will definitely be hard. A general understanding needs to be met. Perhaps if we start with more lighter and friendlier examples in the beginning, that should help posters see how the discussion should generally go.

Ama's idea for a general matchup thread seems good too.

I firmly believe ideas like these are a step in the right direction to a balance of info gathering AND community building. We don't some BB sages to be forum mods and 'herd' us to higher levels of play. I think the characters sub-forums posters should be butting heads together. We NEED to analyze together. Viewpoints and discussion from all levels should be welcome.

As for the front page, I think the articles page and the articles themselves could look a bit more like an actual news page.
That or at least make them look less like the usual forum posts here.

[Tari]

I agree that the articles should look more like a news site if we want people to treat it as a source of news, but I'm not sure that the forum software actually allows for that? I've pretty much never worked with IP Board in depth, so I've got no clue what can and can't be done.

[BlackYakuzu94]

We've been updating with stuff, but it doesn't really look really "Article worthy", maybe its just the software.

[Urichinan]

This is not specifically related to the front page discussion and goes more along with the earlier topic of generating more reasons to post and interreract with each other, but combining matchup threads for both characters is something that has been discussed once before and I think needs to be revisited.

Instead of there being a Ragna vs. Jin thread in Ragna's board and Jin vs. Ragna in Jin's, there's just a Ragna vs. Jin thread for both parties. It encourages players from both sides to actually discuss the matchup from both points of view and also helps generate more activity within the threads.

Just thought I'd bring this back up while we're all at it.

[BlackYakuzu94]

If people take off to SKD's idea, we could use that too, so I'll keep an eye on his thread.

[mAc Chaos]

I've started updating the news page.

[Amadeous]

This is not specifically related to the front page discussion and goes more along with the earlier topic of generating more reasons to post and interreract with each other, but combining matchup threads for both characters is something that has been discussed once before and I think needs to be revisited.

Instead of there being a Ragna vs. Jin thread in Ragna's board and Jin vs. Ragna in Jin's, there's just a Ragna vs. Jin thread for both parties. It encourages players from both sides to actually discuss the matchup from both points of view and also helps generate more activity within the threads.

Just thought I'd bring this back up while we're all at it.

As much as I would love this and think that players should go to other character forums to discuss matchups, how would you logistically do this in a way that's easy to read and navigate?

The most I could think of is making the Matchup threads as they are now into links to one thread for both forums. However that's a lot of information to sort through as well.

Doesn't help much when you main X character and only see discussion of why character y punishes them.

[Urichinan]

As much as I would love this and think that players should go to other character forums to discuss matchups, how would you logistically do this in a way that's easy to read and navigate?

The most I could think of is making the Matchup threads as they are now into links to one thread for both forums. However that's a lot of information to sort through as well.

Doesn't help much when you main X character and only see discussion of why character y punishes them.

 

If something like this is actually possible, this would be the easiest way to organize threads. Do away with all the matchup sub-forums and replace it with a single sub-forum for all matchups and use a search function to get to them quickly.

 

As far as content and needing to sift through information goes, there's already nothing in them, so I can't imagine even with these changes there would be too much to look through. Organization of the threads is the only thing I think could become an issue, but it shouldn't be too hard to figure it out.