[CT+CS1] Noel vs. Hakumen

[byronyuq]

I lost to a Noel in Player match yesterday who only used D. Does this make me a scrub? I hope not as its the first time its been used so much on me and as usually when I tried to counter I got countered and when I tried to block I got hit by another angle. So 5a beats drives you say? Can I spar with you Dragontamer soon? I'd appreciate if you could show me a few basic things to look out for in Noel players and teach me what Haku can do to counter it. Especially the D spammers.

I was able to beat this Noel a few times but only when she didn't get close enough to spam D.

you can 5A noel while she drives if you do it in between

[dragontamer]

No "simple" strategy will beat good chain revolver spam. The Hakumen 5A spam for example will probably lose to something as simple as (Drive) 5B -> 236D. Both outrange 5A (hell, 236D outranges burst). I'm pretty certain that the 5D 5B 5C string also beats jab spam, because the range on that string is so friggen huge.

I've said it before, and I'll say again. No simple strategy will beat a "strategic" Drive Spammer. Fortunately, those who are smart enough to use Drive with strategy probably are smart enough to realize that Noel's 5A mixup is better, especially against Hakumen.

Nevertheless, I don't want to give advice that won't work against someone who knows what they are doing. Hakumen's 5A probably will work against n00by drive spammers, but as I noted a while ago... its a trivial problem for a good Drive user to solve.

I suggest this instead. Learn to recognize those attacks. After a (Drive) 5A, Noel has so many frame traps at her disposal... (Drive) 5A -> 5B is a 2-frame hole, beating everything except Hakumen's counters. But Noel can switch it up to (Drive) 5A -> 5C which is an 11-frame hole, which will counter-hit Hakumen's 6D / 2D...

However, certain attacks are predictable. (Drive) 6A only has +8 frames into the next chain revolver, so the smallest frame trap off of (Drive) 6A is 9-frames wide (except 28D of course), which means even Hakumen's 5A attack should beat everything except 28D.

Some attacks, like (Drive) 6C, are slow enough to react to, and are easily recognizable. 214D will always be beaten if the opponent times a grab (after the "lunge", there is a brief pause, this is when Noel is vunerable to counter-grabs).

[XzUltima]

Any advice for COM Hakumen hell difficulty? He always manages to counter my attacks. When I do get hits in, he blocks most of it.

Hakumen always kills me at least once in Arcade mode and it's really annoying me.

Any help is appreciated

[Senovit]

Throw him more, he's probably programmed to counter whenever you hit an attack button or something.

[Halcyone3]

Any advice for COM Hakumen hell difficulty? He always manages to counter my attacks. When I do get hits in, he blocks most of it.

Hakumen always kills me at least once in Arcade mode and it's really annoying me.

Any help is appreciated

i made due with using attacks with long start-ups on CT. He really seems to be programmed to counter in reaction to your inputs, since every time i used 6D he blocked immediately after and the barrier goes away before the hit gets him on CH.

[XzUltima]

Throw him more, he's probably programmed to counter whenever you hit an attack button or something.

i made due with using attacks with long start-ups on CT. He really seems to be programmed to counter in reaction to your inputs, since every time i used 6D he blocked immediately after and the barrier goes away before the hit gets him on CH.

So throwing him and using long start up moves. I'll try those, thanks!

I'm not exactly up to date with lingo either. Could you either point me in the right direction or explain the abbreviations? ^^;

[Halcyone3]

So throwing him and using long start up moves. I'll try those, thanks!

I'm not exactly up to date with lingo either. Could you either point me in the right direction or explain the abbreviations? ^^;

summing up those 2 posts, throw him more and use 6D (her drive sweep) from time to time.

[XzUltima]

It's worked out so far, thanks for the tips. Haven't lost to him since :D

[madaxe_munkee]

I play alot of Hakumens, but there is this one guy who often does well against me. He just stays in the air continuously, and is always jumping. If I run at him, he'll j.C and then combo off it. Sometimes I can land a 6A, but I always have to beat out a j.C to do so which is risky, and even when it works I have trouble following up, since beating the j.C required me to use 6A earlier than I would have liked. I've considered 2D to get him, and it works sometimes, but it's risky, and can still lose to a j.C as well.

When it comes to stuff like this, I just want to knock him back to the ground so I can use pressure and mixup, but it's never long till he's back in the air and the game resets all over again.

[Konton]

I haven't really had any troubles with Hakumen since I retrained myself around 6a's new timing.

Most of these guys are scrubs so you can troll them with optic barrels and AA them during the typical iad -> j.c. I tend to not follow it up and just start optic barreling them again. It's amazing how many times they will IAD in on you after getting CH'd and smacked away every time.

You can 5d through a lot of his C moves, but try to shy away from using 4d here. You'll probably get counter hit.

[DC]

You're playing trash Hakumen players. This is absolutely one of her worst matchups.

[Runis]

Be more honest. The only match up Noel has that isn't trash would be Rachel and Tsubaki.

[FunkyP]

You're playing trash Hakumen players. This is absolutely one of her worst matchups.

Every matchup is her worst matchup isnt it? Lets face it, she's Tsubaki tier according to you guys.

[byronyuq]

the hakumen i play against rarely counters. i always try to pressure 5A then go up for a throw. it sometimes works =P

[bmore303]

You must be playing online >_> . I play this one more cautious than Tager. Seriously Noel is out-ranged in all ways, and can be countered easily. Hope you can IB

[jags861]

Every matchup is her worst matchup isnt it? Lets face it, she's Tsubaki tier according to you guys.

she is horrible. she is at a disadvantage in almost any scenario. ground vs. ground -- bad normals. ground vs. air, bad 6a. air vs. air same as ground vs. ground.

[Konton]

6a isn't this horrible move you make it out to be.

6a is still a really good anti-air, you just can't throw it out on reaction anymore unless it's an obvious IAD. You have to read them well. It's still got a shit load of upper body invulnerability part way through. You don't get anything in the ways of reward, but it's still a tool that does what it's supposed to. Keeps your opponent honest and lets you initiate offensive momentum while they recover.

[dragontamer]

6A is really really good if the opponent is perfectly spaced. IE: about 3/4ths from full screen for IADs (more for Hakumen, less for others). About 2 Hakumen steps for super-jumps, and about 1 Hakumen Step for normal jumps. If they are at that distance and do the appropriate jump, 6A will beat them clean. Hell, 6A actually beats Arakune now (for almost no damage, but it at least beats him back).

Outside of that, you just need to use it from the right distance now, instead of throwing it out willy-nilly.

The only real options Hakumen has are Tsubaki and j.D to beat out 6A.

[bmore303]

Right the timing on landing 6a on Hakumen is slightly different and I've found it almost will always knock him out of range of a combo if you play it extra safe. Either way I'm only netting approximately 2.4k + heat from a 6a anti air.

[wighti]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aint ~2.5 pretty much what you get out of a 6a? There's really not much more that you can get. So saying, 'only' is kinda misleading

[Konton]

6a isn't going to give you damage. 6a is a ground to air poke that keeps Hakumen's approach honest.

sidebar: You can time a 6d to go through Hakumen's 4c for lulz. 5d works better, but you have to factor in the troll reward.

[DC]

6a isn't this horrible move you make it out to be.

6a is still a really good anti-air, you just can't throw it out on reaction anymore unless it's an obvious IAD. You have to read them well. It's still got a shit load of upper body invulnerability part way through. You don't get anything in the ways of reward, but it's still a tool that does what it's supposed to. Keeps your opponent honest and lets you initiate offensive momentum while they recover.

No, it's not. It still works, it still has invincibility, but when you compare it to real AAs like Ragna's 6a it's a garbage move.

[Mizzet]

Have you seen Valkenhayn's 6a and 2c? God damn lol. I find if I use 6a it gets stuffed too easily by Hak's ginormous j.c or j.2c, rather slide through with 5d and try and tag him in his recovery with it.

[dragontamer]

Have you seen Valkenhayn's 6a and 2c? God damn lol. I find if I use 6a it gets stuffed too easily by Hak's ginormous j.c or j.2c, rather slide through with 5d and try and tag him in his recovery with it.

I find that better Hakumens do j.C -> (land) 5B and still hit me because 5D is so slow.

6A is a safer option IMO, because of the active-frame head invulnerability.

[Mizzet]

I got a question about how antiair invulnerability works though.

Let's look at 6a for example which is "5-10f invincible from head attribute attacks", does that mean

1) My upper body is invulnerable, and the design intent is it works as an AA because most air to ground attacks usually hit the upper body. If I get hit out by something like j.c, it's because it's just so long it reaches past my invulnerable region and smacks my lower body or something?

2) Entire body is invulnerable to attacks that are given the 'head' attribute, probably most aerial normals I guess. In this case, would it mean your 6a would beat any jump in as long as you timed it right? Exceptions would be cases like extremely long normals like Hak's j.c, if he spaces it right, even if you time your 6a right it hits in a way that's too far to follow up easily.