Zeenof Posted July 14, 2009 Posted July 14, 2009 Rachel vs Hakumen This is a very bad match up for me, I generally keep unblocking when I shouldn't, and misjudging distances when trying to punish his air dash and etc. So any kind of advice on this match-up would rock. But, when I generally do well, when I actually do things right, I tend to anti air with 6A and 236B, other than that, I just block until I can punish. I can't really get the fork and knife stun combos to work well on him b/c Hakumen always seems to out range me when I try to punish him. x.x
kro_ Posted July 14, 2009 Posted July 14, 2009 His sweet spot is the distance where he can hit you with the tip of his j.c after IAD or normal jump. Rachel's sweet spot is just out of his j.c range when he jumps forward. From this range, you can score a 6a CH if he tries to IAD and his j.c will whiff if he doesn't. This is useful if he somehow manages to get past your zoning, which shouldn't happen too often.
Zeenof Posted July 15, 2009 Posted July 15, 2009 His sweet spot is the distance where he can hit you with the tip of his j.c after IAD or normal jump. Rachel's sweet spot is just out of his j.c range when he jumps forward. From this range, you can score a 6a CH if he tries to IAD and his j.c will whiff if he doesn't. This is useful if he somehow manages to get past your zoning, which shouldn't happen too often. He doesn't ever not get pass my zoning. He blocks, or hits with his sword while air dashing and then lands in front of me and punishes me. He also loves to get pass my flags via one of the ground dashes Hakumen has, and it has full upper body invincibility for, what seems like, the whole duration of the move. So he does that to just get right pass flags. So, I try to use pumpkin and he just does the dash or jumps, or anything else to easily get pass it, and hits me, makes me block, and the pumpkin goes away. Then you got George, who, well, does nothing by himself against Haku b/c one hit and George dies. I try to use 6A on him, but generally I don't get the hit. Does 6A have priority over Haku's air C? Or am I just suppose to chance it and do mine before his, or what? ;-; He's learned new combos today, and now I can't even get more than 1 round from him any more. x.x
ghaleon109 Posted July 15, 2009 Posted July 15, 2009 Zeenof you just need to Astral Gambit... 6A's are really the only thing I have luck with agaisnt a good Hakumen... but like you said he's better than just a "good" hakumen... I wish you'd put up some youtube videos or something Kro, your Rachel is really amazing. I've never seen you play the Hakumen at FFA though, so I'm not really sure how you spar with him when all of your zoning tactics get blocked. I'll definatly try out some of that stuff though next time.
kro_ Posted July 16, 2009 Posted July 16, 2009 I have some replays I saved on my PS3 against various Hakumen players, but I don't know the first thing about recording match videos and transferring them to a computer. One thing I do to get my zoning started is jump back > IAD back > summon pumpkin > watch what he does. If he IAD's after me, I wind the pumpkin down-forward to create space and start shooting seeds. Shoot seeds in anticipation of where you think he will go and wind pumpkin on reaction if you guess wrong. Use sword iris after a seed to give yourself frame advantage on block or save them to set up a trap later on. Re-summon pumpkin after using it if it ends up in a bad spot. If not, summon frog. Whenever people get past my zoning, I just start rushing them down as a reward. Here's one of the things I do to avoid getting cornered: j.2c with 6d wind is a great overhead from afar and very difficult to dodge. If they block, double jump and do another j.2c for a crossup overhead. Cancel that j.2c into pumpkin or seed and the momentum from the wind will carry over and make you fly across the screen. Chances are you'll get some free damage, switch sides, set a well-placed pumpkin/seed, and end up full-screen distance away from the opponent.
Zeenof Posted July 19, 2009 Posted July 19, 2009 I have some replays I saved on my PS3 against various Hakumen players, but I don't know the first thing about recording match videos and transferring them to a computer. One thing I do to get my zoning started is jump back > IAD back > summon pumpkin > watch what he does. If he IAD's after me, I wind the pumpkin down-forward to create space and start shooting seeds. Shoot seeds in anticipation of where you think he will go and wind pumpkin on reaction if you guess wrong. Use sword iris after a seed to give yourself frame advantage on block or save them to set up a trap later on. Re-summon pumpkin after using it if it ends up in a bad spot. If not, summon frog. Whenever people get past my zoning, I just start rushing them down as a reward. Here's one of the things I do to avoid getting cornered: j.2c with 6d wind is a great overhead from afar and very difficult to dodge. If they block, double jump and do another j.2c for a crossup overhead. Cancel that j.2c into pumpkin or seed and the momentum from the wind will carry over and make you fly across the screen. Chances are you'll get some free damage, switch sides, set a well-placed pumpkin/seed, and end up full-screen distance away from the opponent. That last part sounds really nice. I'll have to start practicing that man. Thanks for the help. :D
Zeenof Posted July 19, 2009 Posted July 19, 2009 Zeenof you just need to Astral Gambit... 6A's are really the only thing I have luck with agaisnt a good Hakumen... but like you said he's better than just a "good" hakumen... I wish you'd put up some youtube videos or something Kro, your Rachel is really amazing. I've never seen you play the Hakumen at FFA though, so I'm not really sure how you spar with him when all of your zoning tactics get blocked. I'll definatly try out some of that stuff though next time. Yeah, we just need an instant Astral to be able to use on Gambit. ;-;
Moogster Posted August 16, 2009 Posted August 16, 2009 Quick question, is it better to fight Hakumen by zoning? I'm really having a hard time against Haku's. If I try to get in the counter.
excelence Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 Thought he has awful ground dash, but he still has a very decent command dash, just be very careful when throwing crap, and if he somewhat on range and can telegraph projectile... his 6c wasn't a laughing matter and zoning Hakumen is rather hard with limited amount of wind gauge, just by walking toward he can keep the space between him and Rachel, no wider than 3/4 screen away and just a few step from there, she is already on his affective area for retaliate. Use strat number 3 sparingly, you can't block Haku's 6d grab and to deal with greedy Haku that love to cut your projectile for free magatama to blow on command dash, Rachell can use 2 wind stock to get pumpkin ch and put him on bad situation since after the hit, if u didn't get the combos the pumpkin will usually located on his back to work on her further mix up for Blockstring... don't leave any gap on your blockstrings. if u get caught on D counter, since his 6d and 2d is an instant, it can act similar to DP's for eg -> Rachel j2cd>5b, if he ib the j2c, he can drive counter your 5b or 5cdc>236a, he can ib the last 5c and counter Tinny Lobelia
TIFunkalicious Posted August 29, 2009 Posted August 29, 2009 I started Rachel at the beginning of this week and have been playing nightly with a very good Hakumen player, here are some notes/observations and few questions. In summary, this is a brutal match, either you keep him at bay or in block/hit stun all day or he gets in with his monstrous melee game. You can comment and criticize, I did not research outside of BnB combos, so this is all self taught, and there are bound to be oversights that could have worked in my favor. - You have to be ace at zoning. Simple mistakes that go unnoticed in matches against other characters can end up with a sword in your face. Try to summon george without a pumpkin on screen? IAD j.C into massive damage. Misjudge your sword iris without a pumpkin? IAD j.C into massive damage. Try to summon a pumpkin at less than 1/2 screen outside of a combo? You get the point... there isn't much to learn outside of her standard stuff. Learn the arcs of cannonballs. Be a sniper with the pumpkin. And know when to put down george so you can increase pressure or punish his attempts at killing the frog. etc. You just have to take those fundamentals to a higher level. Successful rachels in this matchups are able to create something akin to blockstrings at half screen. One positive thing is that he's either moving in the air or not much at all, this makes lightning rods an essential tool. - Getting locked down in the corner is VERY VERY BAD. Worse yet, Hakumen's moves are designed to bully you into it. I've gotten guard broken less in all my other matchups combined, a jumpin with a couple moves leading a full meter of moves will likely leave you vulnerable, especially if the libra wasn't in your favor beforehand, and oh yes, he can still screw you sideways without meter after that little stunt. Dash, iad, or wind yourself out of this pickle whenever possible. I did not try to counter assault and I'm curious as to how often it can save you in this hellhole. Though likely it will fall short, much like the... - ...Cat chair! It's very good against IAD j.C's or anticipated command dashes and...not much else. You may get a couple off of ground strings, but alot of his moves will clash against the super armor but still leave his hitbox a mile away. Note that normal j.C's will usually end up with Hakumen safe as ever, and there's little reason he'd go deep on that jump in, so reserve it for when you can see the dash. EVEN AGAINST Iad attacks, you have to watch setups that don't allow cat chair to start up before being counterhit, throws seem to be only one I've seen. -6A works in some places that cat chair will fail and it's too late to cannonball, most notably in anticipation of his normal j.C. While the chair would fall short, the uppercat passes through. - Get on his ass! If you're not a wizard with Rachel's 3 projectiles, you are honestly safer keeping him in block. Learn her ground strings, especially ones involving wind that can be reset. There isn't much he can do against a j.2C (or the followup with a dj) or 5B on wakeup that doesn't involve alot of risk. Dude would sometimes barrier burst during the first combo I landed because many rounds would go to me simply because i was able to keep on him in this advantageous momentum. Although often times he would win after this, it shows you how good she can be at making Hakumen sit down for awhile. - On that note, yeah, you might want to consider a BB when he gets you in the corner for awhile with some meter . That position is simply so much in his favor it could be GGPO unless you pull something real clever. - Hakumen's drives are annoying, but once you start leaving space in strings and counterhiting with 3DC or rod into air combo it'll rarely pop up because it's very risky for him to go from blocking into one of rachel's vicious combos. 4-5 moves pause punish works wonders for making the player afraid of that button. You'll just have to research frames and whatnot you see what strings leave you safe, and find moves that combo but have space, stop on the first move and he may think you screwed up and are going to try to complete the string. In my friends case, he ended up with more failures than successes with the D counter, it just gave me something more to work with to make him go from blocking to getting hit. That's it for my knowledge. I'm new to the character obviously, and wasn't too good at keeping him out, so matches either ended heavily in either favor, basically whoever got the first knockdown and who dealt with the other's burst. Here are my questions: - I'll bring up the game's counter system again, can it get you out of the corner? - Hakumen jumps and blocks your 236B, he's now slightly closer on the ground and can jump again right away. What do you do in this situation - Oh my god does anything stop his 213B except for a psychic cat chair? - When is it safe to summon a pumpkin? Unless we both dash away at the beginning I have quite a time getting it out, only to block a halfscreen sword. I hope you noticed I called the 6A the uppercat, I feel very clever
ant12292 Posted August 29, 2009 Posted August 29, 2009 - I'll bring up the game's counter system again, can it get you out of the corner? Instant block stuff to form an opening though there is not much he can do except frame traps w/o stars. Also, he has no overhead on the ground unless he has 3 stars (I think 3). Don't be afraid to counter assault (6A+B in block stun) if you need to get him off of you. - Hakumen jumps and blocks your 236B, he's now slightly closer on the ground and can jump again right away. What do you do in this situation ? Block. You shouldn't be using 236B when he is that close. - Oh my god does anything stop his 213B except for a psychic cat chair? Unsure what move you are talking about. - When is it safe to summon a pumpkin? Unless we both dash away at the beginning I have quite a time getting it out, only to block a halfscreen sword. Anytime you are out of the range of iad j.C, after getting him to block a sword iris, during combos, and after knockdown. Some random stuff: -Try to rush at the beginning of the match when he does not have stars, if you sit there and zone he is just going to instant block and counter projectiles to build up meter, making things worse for you when he does get in. I like to zone once I have the life lead because there is more pressure for them to get in usually resulting in more mistakes being made and more damage for you. -Good Hakumen players will try to instant block your 5B and counter if they expect the j.2C, which is very bad for you. This is easy to bait if you expect it though. -Airthrows are very good in this matchup if you predict an iad. Afterwards, wind down and do an air combo ending in j.2C to keep pressure. -Watch out for the reversal super, especially on your projectiles. Double jump or super jump to avoid it. Also, the super has a deceptive amount of active frames. I have been hit by this trying to punish on what looked like Hakumen's recovery. -Burst smartly. The Hakumen player I play against is very good at baiting bursts especially during j.2C loops.
TIFunkalicious Posted August 29, 2009 Posted August 29, 2009 Thank you much for the comments. I haven't incorporated instant blocks or counter assaults into this matchup yet, and I think we're at a point that we could both start learning where to use them because both of us are very effective at locking the other down in a corner. 214B is his 2hit magic feet that hit low then mid and cancels into itself up to 4 times, which often ends in a guard break. 2C falls short of punishing even the first one.
DC Posted August 30, 2009 Posted August 30, 2009 Cat chair? Cat chair is horrible in this matchup; in any given situation any option is better. In fact, I'm fairly sure the only attack he gets CH from cat chair is his stomp. Every other attack uses his sword. No Hakumen IADs into you without attacking or blocking lol. Cat chair only seems to be useful against poking Taokakas.
ant12292 Posted August 30, 2009 Posted August 30, 2009 No, I have played this matchup a lot and 2C definitely has some uses on hakumen. Your not going to throw it out stupidly of course, but it beats out Hakumen's iad attempts (with an attack) in a lot of spots where 6A doesn't. 2C is much more useful here than the Tao matchup imo.
DC Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 lol What attack is Hakumen using on you when he IADs? I'm pretty sure he doesn't get shocked from any attack that uses his sword. If he touches you with his body when he IADs thats a different story, but why in gods name would Hakumen ever be that close to you? Do you see the size of his sword? If he gets IADing and getting shocked from 2C then he is not spacing himself correctly. Furthermore in a Tao matchup, she only has two or three attacks that don't get her shocked.
ant12292 Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 Hakumen's j.C gets beat by 2C like 90% of the time if timed late enough to absorb the hit and then hit him with the electricity. At worst trades it trades. I'm not saying to do something like use it to hit him out of a C move on the ground. I only find it useful as an anti air because 6A really doesn't work well against Hakumen. Tao's attacks are much more open to getting shocked (meaning they won't trade with the cat chair), but they also get beat out by a lot of way less riskier things. Also, a lot of her moves used in block strings have startup that is so quick that it will beat out the autoguard on 2C or you will get crossed up and 2C will activate in the opposite direction or something. What I'm trying to say is that 2C is more useful in the Hakumen matchup imo becaue there is nothing else you can do to stop Hakumen in the air except maybe an airthrow if you see him jumping really early. In the Tao matchup, 6A stuffs her air stuff for much less risk and on the ground there are too many moves she can avoid 2C with. I guess it comes down to personal opinion which matchup the cat chair is more useful in. I have had more luck with other moves against Tao, but I find 2C definitely works well as an anti air when used correctly against Hakumen.
DC Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 Alright well, if it works for you I'm not going to tell you to stop doing it lol. I wasn't even aware you could trade hits with cat chair. The way I see it though, I don't think it's really safe to use such a punishable attack on a character that has 10000 damage combos from CH (Haku has 8 stars, but I'm not entirely sure if Rachel gets CH if she gets hit after the super armor of cat chair, correct me if I'm wrong) :/ But like I said if you found a solid use for it, then feel free.
kro_ Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 Play against a Tao that can do 4k meterless taunt combos and you will stop doing cat chair in a hurry. Haku's IAD has a lot of momentum so anytime he does it he'll be making contact with the chair, and I've never seen a Hakumen player use his long airdash just to bait chair since he'd get hit if you did 6a. So I do find 2c useful in situations where you don't have enough time to 6a, but only when you really know that your opponent is committing himself to an attack that moves his body forward. But it's best to just block really. His mixups aren't exactly fast and he needs multiple stars just to get a decent overhead. If he actually spends all of his stars just to guardbreak you (which shouldn't happen if you have barrier), he won't have enough meter to do a half-decent punish combo. All Haku players really need to learn how to IB > parry. Easier than IB > DP, safer than a direct parry, and gets you out of so much stuff once you have a basic handle on your opponent's blockstrings. It even does what DP can't, which is punish a projectile-based oki game in the corner (i.e. Rachel and Litchi) since he vacuums you in if you're anywhere near him - even if you were just sitting there blocking. It's the reason I stress zoning in this matchup. If you don't like zoning then you need to bait parries mid blockstring and be unpredictable. Throws work pretty well until Haku figures out how to buffer throw breaks into parries.
DC Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 When I say I use 2c is the Tao matchup, I really mean that's the only matchup where I've ever willingly used it in and attempt to counter an attack. I hate 2c with a passion and I seldom use it, lol. In any given situation there always seems to be a better option.
TIFunkalicious Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 Learn how to combo off of it and they may be a little bit scared to iad against you, which is his strongest movement option, a big plus for rachel Im starting to see more and more that this is in her favor, I just need to work on my fundies and timing to take advantage of what she has over him.
qwerty Posted September 14, 2009 Posted September 14, 2009 lol, figures the anti hakumen "strats" would be "punish iad j.C" and "don't let him parry" iad j.C shouldn't even be a concern because you can punish it with 6A, electic chair, or a pole in his face (probably other shit that i don't know of as well). iad j.C is seriously some day 1 shit and unless hakumen is attempting to mix up off of it it's a goddamn scrub tactic. as far as parries go, i usually only do them on reaction, so good luck trying to avoid that if you're rushing me down (protip: your crouching whip thing is hella easy to 2D on reaction, so even if you throw it out mid blockstring expect to take 4.5k of unburstable damage). what makes this match annoying is that rachel controls everything. she can keep hakumen away for as long as she wants and she can choose to rush down whenever she wants. the only insurance policy hakumen has against this gay shit is guarding (i know most hakumen players don't know what this is but hear me out) and his counters. anything he tries to do against poles/pumpkins/george that isn't a counter is a free punish for you anywhere on screen so it's not like playing it safe and zoning can't lead to big damage.
DC Posted September 15, 2009 Posted September 15, 2009 iad j.C shouldn't even be a concern because you can punish it with 6A Not as easy as you'd think.
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