HZMN Posted November 13, 2009 Posted November 13, 2009 Arakune can't zone a good Tager, he'll have to get in and do some physics on that sweet ass. LOLWHUT?!?!?!?! I can only assume you mean get in close just for that initial curse combo right?
Skye Posted November 13, 2009 Posted November 13, 2009 No...I mean he can't zone a Tager. Barrier A and B bug, which are the only air unblockables, C bug isn't an issue unless it's counter hit, and D bug is luck. Arakune can't get a lucky cloud and bug spam. If you notice, a lot of the best Arakunes are always doing a combo. "Combo" is an awfully downplayed word when Arakune is involved, considering that the "initial curse combo" is a nice 4-6k off the back including a healthy combination of physical attacks and bugs--not just bugs. Because of the frame lag of the B, C and D bug, Arakune cannot properly spam against anyone, they end up wasting curse meter doing very small chip damage, and afterwards, Tager can literally Sledge Car in and deal damage or -- Spark Bolt. Must I really validate my point? Arakune cannot zone a good Tager. The primary advantage is the primary advantage he has in just about all of his match ups, high ass damage, lockdowns and (to a lesser extent in this match up) turtling. Zoning, he cannot do, zoning from what I've observed relies solely on the A bug, which can be spammed.
SergeantDiaz Posted November 13, 2009 Posted November 13, 2009 No...I mean he can't zone a Tager. Barrier A and B bug, which are the only air unblockables, C bug isn't an issue unless it's counter hit, and D bug is luck. Arakune can't get a lucky cloud and bug spam. If you notice, a lot of the best Arakunes are always doing a combo. "Combo" is an awfully downplayed word when Arakune is involved, considering that the "initial curse combo" is a nice 4-6k off the back including a healthy combination of physical attacks and bugs--not just bugs. Because of the frame lag of the B, C and D bug, Arakune cannot properly spam against anyone, they end up wasting curse meter doing very small chip damage, and afterwards, Tager can literally Sledge Car in and deal damage or -- Spark Bolt. Must I really validate my point? Arakune cannot zone a good Tager. The primary advantage is the primary advantage he has in just about all of his match ups, high ass damage, lockdowns and (to a lesser extent in this match up) turtling. Zoning, he cannot do, zoning from what I've observed relies solely on the A bug, which can be spammed. The point of zoning is to keep an opponent away which Arakune has a very easy time doing. This sledge car as you put it can be baited and will be punished by a good arakune. Just because a lot of the best Arakunes are always doing a combo doesn't mean that they can't zone a good tager.
HZMN Posted November 13, 2009 Posted November 13, 2009 "Combo" is an awfully downplayed word when Arakune is involved, considering that the "initial curse combo" is a nice 4-6k off the back including a healthy combination of physical attacks and bugs--not just bugs. Because of the frame lag of the B, C and D bug, Arakune cannot properly spam against anyone, they end up wasting curse meter doing very small chip damage, and afterwards, Tager can literally Sledge Car in and deal damage or -- Spark Bolt. Must I really validate my point? A properly timed DBug or any other bug for that matter totally stuffs Sledge in every regard, same way sledging with Nu is almost pointless. I lost count how many times I've tried sledging into Arakune, only to be picked up by the DBug or counter hit with one of the other bugs. Sledge, on paper, is supposed to work REALLY well here. Reality check: It'll get you killed most of the time. So I call BS on your speculations.
Skye Posted November 13, 2009 Posted November 13, 2009 They aren't speculation. Stop Sledging a D Bug, that's free meter, IB that shit. And the frame lag can allow Tager for an approach. Zoning is keeping solid control of the position of your opponent. You have it confused with "lock-downs" keeping them in one place. Arakune does have a decent zoning game, I'm not knocking that, his lockdown game is certainly stronger though. However, Arakune technically cannot spam bugs (except for the A bug), the B, C, and D bug respectively have more brief time periods where you cannot use the bug, which is what I call "frame lag". That's Tager's chance. Counter combos, that's not zoning, that's aggression and punishment. However that revealed that you have not quite understood my point. Arakune cannot win vs (a good) Tager with pure zoning. He has to get physical, a lot--well, logically, just twice, 3 times tops. ^^;
HZMN Posted November 13, 2009 Posted November 13, 2009 They aren't speculation. Stop Sledging a D Bug, that's free meter, IB that shit. And the frame lag can allow Tager for an approach. Zoning is keeping solid control of the position of your opponent. You have it confused with "lock-downs" keeping them in one place. Arakune does have a decent zoning game, I'm not knocking that, his lockdown game is certainly stronger though. However, Arakune technically cannot spam bugs (except for the A bug), the B, C, and D bug respectively have more brief time periods where you cannot use the bug, which is what I call "frame lag". That's Tager's chance. Counter combos, that's not zoning, that's aggression and punishment. However that revealed that you have not quite understood my point. Arakune cannot win vs (a good) Tager with pure zoning. He has to get physical, a lot--well, logically, just twice, 3 times tops. ^^; Free meter at the cost of never getting any closer to Arakune and letting him come up to throw a curse cloud to keep me in the same position or reset the curse meter? So I stand still, get free meter, and get zoned into place cause I'm too busy trying to IB or avoid bugs, while Arakune throws out occasional curse clouds to keep me cursed indefinitely. Never allowing me to get close to him. I go forward and try to be aggressive, get bugged to death. Arakune's zoning against Tager locks him down just as much as Nu's Zoning ability locks down Tager. You can never get close if done properly.
naikou Posted November 13, 2009 Posted November 13, 2009 Call it zoning or lockdown or whatever. Point is Arakune is safe the whole match and then you die. And he's certainly not going to be blocking against you, which was my original point.
Zero000 Posted November 13, 2009 Posted November 13, 2009 hello i am arukune, i use my inescapable lockdown to kill you, if you don't post this message 5 times, I'll curse you and zone you to death you're dumb
A.X.I.S. Posted November 13, 2009 Posted November 13, 2009 Free meter at the cost of never getting any closer to Arakune and letting him come up to throw a curse cloud to keep me in the same position or reset the curse meter? shit you think arakune can zone a good tager to death? hell no? he has wholes in his shit, one well timed sledge and its counter hit city just don't sit there blocking like a clown lol inch closer, pure zoning arakune tend to J.D alot and that loses to jump blocking and sledge. So I stand still, get free meter, and get zoned into place cause I'm too busy trying to IB or avoid bugs, while Arakune throws out occasional curse clouds to keep me cursed indefinitely. Never allowing me to get close to him. lets look at his curse cloud, anti air cloud, keeps you from jumping, your not hitting that fucking cloud unless A you jump or B you get counter hit. homing cloud ok your gonna let that cloud hit you for free? you can sledge it or avoid it, either way if arakune is spamming bugs then he is not gonna punish a sledge. and lastly the shield cloud, the one that's around him ok unless your precise, sledging that cloud gets you hit unless he teleport's so my advice for that one is to poke arakune out of his attack or else you will get cursed and then you will hate yourself. I go forward and try to be aggressive, get bugged to death. rather be aggressive and fail then to lose my guard and die from zoning arakune. Arakune's zoning against Tager locks him down just as much as Nu's Zoning ability locks down Tager. not really, nu's zoning is far more gay, you have to IB to think you have a chance lol arakune's A and B bug can be barrier IB'd, if he tries to get close you can go GG and IB throw him, if he tries to throw you you break it and get uncursed, in other words unless he's hitting you physically then you can sledge or jump out even though jumping isn't adviced, i rather IB air throw a arakune. You can never get close if done properly. well i had my bouts of helplessness until i figured out that walking and sledging is the best transportation ever. Call it zoning or lockdown or whatever. Point is Arakune is safe the whole match and then you die. And he's certainly not going to be blocking against you, which was my original point. not necessarily, when arakune gets to zoning then you have to take it slow and act accordingly, in other words don't do something stupid, problem is almost everything is stupid in this match-up.
naikou Posted November 13, 2009 Posted November 13, 2009 hello i am arukune, i use my inescapable lockdown to kill you, if you don't post this message 5 times, I'll curse you and zone you to death you're dumb hello i am arukune, i use my inescapable lockdown to kill you, if you don't post this message 5 times, I'll curse you and zone you to death you're dumb hello i am arukune, i use my inescapable lockdown to kill you, if you don't post this message 5 times, I'll curse you and zone you to death you're dumb hello i am arukune, i use my inescapable lockdown to kill you, if you don't post this message 5 times, I'll curse you and zone you to death you're dumb hello i am arukune, i use my inescapable lockdown to kill you, if you don't post this message 5 times, I'll curse you and zone you to death you're dumb Am I safe now?
HZMN Posted November 13, 2009 Posted November 13, 2009 well i had my bouts of helplessness until i figured out that walking and sledging is the best transportation ever. not necessarily, when arakune gets to zoning then you have to take it slow and act accordingly, in other words don't do something stupid, problem is almost everything is stupid in this match-up. Thats what I am saying though, sledging is an incredibly high risk move here. I've seen some Arakune's deliberately hold one of the bugs (usually B) in anticipation of Sledge to just get the counter hit and go to town. The curse cloud that hangs above your head also locks you out of using AC
bjholmes2 Posted November 13, 2009 Posted November 13, 2009 I'm curious why this discussion isn't taking place in the Arakune matchup forums.
mAc Chaos Posted November 13, 2009 Posted November 13, 2009 I'm curious why this discussion isn't taking place in the Arakune matchup forums. Because all they need to discuss there is "use bugs" and "GIHIHIHIHIHI!!!"
Skye Posted November 13, 2009 Posted November 13, 2009 I'm curious why this discussion isn't taking place in the Arakune matchup forums. Because the discussion wasn't intended to be this heated. I'll just say this, then I'm out of the discussion. Arakune can never beat a good Tager with pure zoning, saying his zoning is as bad as Nu's is really uninformed, amongst other words I could use. Nu can spam her BnB, then stop and do a gravity field, repeat, also, at the start of the match, she has the option to do that. Arakune has to curse you. And--you seem to be constantly missing this--Arakune has frame lag in 3 of his 4 bugs, he cannot spam them, there will be holes where you can approach. Hell, jump--keep and eye for that A bug, and Barrier it accordingly, it can't lock you down, it'll hinder you only a little. Pure zoning will not work on anyone. It'll fuck with them, hard, and it's in no way easy to get by it, but it's possible. Just like Nu's pure zoning isn't a solid fortress, but it's sure as hell is a formidable one. It's just harder for Tager. Impossible? No, the better Tagers shouldn't have too big of an issue with this.
Skye Posted November 13, 2009 Posted November 13, 2009 I'm not top level, but I know my character. The dilemma here is that top level Arakune's do not "pure zone".
Matt Posted November 13, 2009 Posted November 13, 2009 Skye, I wanted to flame you so bad for saying dumbshit like "pure zoning doesn't kill Tager, you need to be offensive" but instead I'll just post a couple of Fumo vids. Watch these videos, hell watch them twice because you are obviously a little slow and then you'll see that pure zoning DOES win against Tager. Hell it's so easy that if I stopped playing on auto pilot and practiced this match up for a couple days, I could beat a top level japanese Tager player being a gigantic scrub myself. http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm8251428 (first part) http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm8251674 (starting at 8:08) Anyways, I'm gonna go back to lurking so that I can stop looking like a scrubbish idiot unlike a certain someone here >_>. Skye: Before you post saying dumb stuff and criticize pros for not meeting your standards, read this thread- http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7704. Fur reals. And don't reply to this, just to keep this idiotic conversation from continuing on.
Mike Z Posted November 14, 2009 Posted November 14, 2009 The Tager in that first vid played very well. Using Spark Bolt to try to hit Arakune punishing the Sledge that Tager should have done to get rid of the cloud...hell, that's yomi! It didn't work, but that's beside the point.
Ssuusshhii Posted November 14, 2009 Posted November 14, 2009 Skye: Before you post saying dumb stuff and criticize pros for not meeting your standards, read this thread- http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7704. Fur reals. And don't reply to this, just to keep this idiotic conversation from continuing on. This.
Skye Posted November 14, 2009 Posted November 14, 2009 The internet is fun too. Everyone knows everything but you.
Heroic_Legacy Posted November 14, 2009 Posted November 14, 2009 Three cheers for CT Tager! May he rest in peace, for he shall be reborn Nov. 20th as a wrecking machine!
Matt Posted November 14, 2009 Posted November 14, 2009 Yeah now he's faster and has a legit AA. CS Tager along with the rest of the cast are all looking like there gonna be on more equal ground.
SuperKawaiiDesu Posted November 14, 2009 Posted November 14, 2009 This. At least im not the only one who lol's at all of Skye's posts. Seriously, I know my character and Tager cant get zoned by kune coming from the same person? ;~;
Skye Posted November 14, 2009 Posted November 14, 2009 At least im not the only one who lol's at all of Skye's posts. You read all of my posts? Stalker.
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