[CT] Iron Tager General Discussion

[Fullforcefafnir]

Lookie Lookie.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnZrowntRxI

Epic

[rei-Scarred]

unless this is really hard to do, this looks like something that could seriously improve tager's tier standing. wont help as much against the top tiers though. ...need to practice this

[DoomieJ]

unless this is really hard to do, this looks like something that could seriously improve tager's tier standing. wont help as much against the top tiers though. ...need to practice this

it wont improve shit.

still a gdlk video. very good when lamer scrubs are trying to pressure me and i BUST all over them.

[dragontamer]

Noel:

-5A to 5B/6A (watch for jump cancels)

-2nd hit of 2C (may be avoidable if she uses 214A, have to check the startup frames of it)

-Chain Revolver 214D, 236D 2nd hit from close distance

-ground 236236D first hit

IB 5A leaves you at only +2 frames, not enough to stop another 5A or 6C.

2C cancels into 2D. 2D is airborne from frame 5 to 30 (can't be ground grabbed). You are recovering at frame 13 or 18, with the 720 comming out at frame 18 or 23. So 2C -> 2D breaks that. If you sledge after a 2C, you should condition the opponent into not using 2D, so this isn't as "bad" as it sounds with appropriate pressure.

I would instead suggest...

Normal Block Noel's 5B and then just 720. 5B cancels into 5C, 2C and 6B, and is not jump-cancelable. No need to instant-block either, everything out of 5B has a hole on regular block (and further, they are almost all projectile attacks, so SledgeA should be reasonably safe unless Noel does 6B or 2D... ). The only way out for Noel is to save herself is to cancel into 2D or maybe 214A... which also have holes but she would be airborn by the time the 720 lands.

Wait, what am I doing here? I shouldn't be telling Tager players my weaknesses

[kensk]

ib 5a gives you enough time to 720. its not a guaranteed punish, but 5a 5a will lose to IB 720 since as long as there is at least a 1 frame gap where you can do the 720, the invincibility will take care of the rest.

[rei-Scarred]

it wont improve shit.

still a gdlk video. very good when lamer scrubs are trying to pressure me and i BUST all over them.

well granted whether he passes bang or not, just getting closer counts as an improvement

i mean seriously from that video there were quite a few opportunities on most characters where it can be used, and having an opportunity to take out half life on an opponent just by guarding is pretty serious.

[dragontamer]

ib 5a gives you enough time to 720. its not a guaranteed punish, but 5a 5a will lose to IB 720 since as long as there is at least a 1 frame gap where you can do the 720, the invincibility will take care of the rest.

There are no gaps even if you IB Noel's 5A spam. Both 5A and 6C are both faster than an instant-blocked guard-stun, and cancel from 5A.

So spin that joystick around, I'll have some 5A spam to keep me safe over here.

[kensk]

actually, you're right, you cant escape it. i actually thought you could do IB 720, but it seems like that only works if they try and frame trap with 5a, which loses to ib 720, if you just spam 5a really hard, tager wont do anything and remain blocking). ive never encountered a noel that outright spams 5a outside of the first 3 or so to bait a backdash. you typically want to not mash them anyway (so you can hitconfirm faster. if you mash it slower than 1st frame though, that's enough of a gap to 720. while i was wrong, it carries no risk on my end. the frame data in this game is fucking awful :/ i read it differently and my experiences told me otherwise but i tested it and was wrong!

[NumeroGaijin]

Honestly this does improve Tager on the tier list. Watch as more players use this Tager will be a definite force to reckon with. This in the future will be useful against even his worst matchup with Nu. I say this because personally I believe besies the normal way Tager has to do things vs Nu, he would need to RC a lot to set NU up for a trap especially after magnetism. Since Nu takes heavy damage as it is I would settle to instant block all the swords to build enough meter for a rapid cancel trap in order to get closer to Nu for a 360 grab. Yes I know this sounds stupid but if you cant get closer to her you might have spark bolt cancel 2d then mind game from there to get a 360 or if you 100% maybe a 720 or IB if she plans on attacking the counter with a 360 or 720. But this requires instant block with barrier and normal instant blocking EVERY sword which is shall I say next to godly. What do you guys think?

[Osuna]

Honestly this does improve Tager on the tier list. Watch as more players use this Tager will be a definite force to reckon with. This in the future will be useful against even his worst matchup with Nu. I say this because personally I believe besies the normal way Tager has to do things vs Nu, he would need to RC a lot to set NU up for a trap especially after magnetism. Since Nu takes heavy damage as it is I would settle to instant block all the swords to build enough meter for a rapid cancel trap in order to get closer to Nu for a 360 grab. Yes I know this sounds stupid but if you cant get closer to her you might have spark bolt cancel 2d then mind game from there to get a 360 or if you 100% maybe a 720 or IB if she plans on attacking the counter with a 360 or 720. But this requires instant block with barrier and normal instant blocking EVERY sword which is shall I say next to godly. What do you guys think?

I think I'm not sure what you mean. IB 720 has been around for a long time and tager is still bottom tier. besies?

Barrier what? Your example is grounded. Also IB 720 isn't That great with nu, because she has very few moves that can't act pulsar or jump cancel and they shouldn't be used up close while you have super meter. I mean, it is good to have, but it's not going to change the match up.

[dragontamer]

actually, you're right, you cant escape it. i actually thought you could do IB 720, but it seems like that only works if they try and frame trap with 5a, which loses to ib 720, if you just spam 5a really hard, tager wont do anything and remain blocking). ive never encountered a noel that outright spams 5a outside of the first 3 or so to bait a backdash. you typically want to not mash them anyway (so you can hitconfirm faster. if you mash it slower than 1st frame though, that's enough of a gap to 720.

while i was wrong, it carries no risk on my end. the frame data in this game is fucking awful :/ i read it differently and my experiences told me otherwise but i tested it and was wrong!

You have a good point, although I should mention that if the Tager is especially defensive, I'd just finish with the following blockstring.

5A (spam) -> (optional 6A) -> 6C -> 2C

Note: if you instant block the last 5A spam, 6C still connects safely if you drop the 6A. 6A does offer 1100 tasty Guard Crush though.

I think a blocked 2C game is now overall in Noel's favor, and you've lost 4.4k+ Guard Libra (not counting the 5A spam) if you blocked this very short sequence. The only potential hole is if you instant-blocked the 6C, but if that is normal/barrier blocked then there are no holes. I do think there is a 720C opportunity off of a blocked Noel 2C, but 2C leaves Noel in +1 frame advantage on normal block, and Noel has a lot of options from the 2C. Not only the scrubby Noel's 2D / 3C "mixup", but also Noel's 5B which outranges Tager's 360A and 5A and stuffs most other attacks, some dash in and more Noel 5A spam and so forth.

[IronTager]

I'm not sure if this was mentioned, however, I see Ragna's list is empty and can only assume that nobody listed it since there's little time for me to read the other posts. If I'm not mistaken, it's posted in the match up section that you can punish Hell's Fang with Tager Buster, so I can't see why Tager Emerald Buster wouldn't work, if you instant block or dodge it. By the way, I was thinking recently of posting something similar to this and think it's a great thread for learning. I myself suck with grabs since I never main them (Tager being the acception to this) so I have a hard time doing em. Anyhow, I was hoping that a thread could be made for a "Best opportunities to grab" type thing that's similar to this, however, consists more than just instant blocking into the grabs. I'm pretty sure that Tao can also be grabbed out of her D drive if you do it just right. I still have trouble buffering into grabs as well *Sigh* Anyhow, I should probably stop babbling. Good luck on this list.

[ShinsoBEAM]

Also best time to grab, anything someone stupidly doesn't tech away from you or heaven forbid techs towards you is a good start. Also it works well on tick throw if people arn't used to it, read 236B(blocked), B grab, be carefull about not doing it too fast if they don't IB because I belive it blockstrings into it and they can definitely throw break it. Also Can't you do it on Jin's Ice cars, at least it works on scrubs online every damn time. It also works on Ranga's 214A attack, and its follow up if Im correct.

[Tofu Warrior]

Record ragna doing 5B > 5C > 5D

This is the exact string I used to practice IB, 720 .

When you tap back to perform the instant block, just think of that as the first input of your 720. From back, go straight to down back, etc. It's not that hard once you get the hang of it.

[DivineChaos97]

Does Tager get anything off a Counter Assault?

[Gerk]

Forgive me if this has been asked before, but is there any practical usage for the followup to Tager's Magnatech Wheel DD other than extra damage to tack on if it hits? Is it even the best thing to do if the Wheel hits, or are there other superior options yet?

[ShinsoBEAM]

Forgive me if this has been asked before, but is there any practical usage for the followup to Tager's Magnatech Wheel DD other than extra damage to tack on if it hits? Is it even the best thing to do if the Wheel hits, or are there other superior options yet?

Im p. sure its the only way to do extra damage after it hits, its terrible to use if spinny super whiffs though, because it has no super armor as far as I can see and its fairly slow.

Also correct me if I am wrong, but if you hit the followup early can't you keep combing, after the followup for a little bit more damage, I have done it a few times I think but I don't know if its char specific or not.

[Osuna]

Im p. sure its the only way to do extra damage after it hits, its terrible to use if spinny super whiffs though, because it has no super armor as far as I can see and its fairly slow.

Also correct me if I am wrong, but if you hit the followup early can't you keep combing, after the followup for a little bit more damage, I have done it a few times I think but I don't know if its char specific or not.

Because of the many hits in the first super RCing for more damage without them teching would be really hard.

The follow up has a little invincibility, so if you whiff the spinny super like a poor fool on someone and you sense something without a ton of active frames and has decent recovery on whiff coming, you can time it to go through the attack.

When I was worse than I am now, I'd whiffed completely on a Hakumen while I was dying, and he was going to kill me with 6C so I did the follow up and punched him in the face.

[A.X.I.S.]

Because of the many hits in the first super RCing for more damage without them teching would be really hard.

The follow up has a little invincibility, so if you whiff the spinny super like a poor fool on someone and you sense something without a ton of active frames and has decent recovery on whiff coming, you can time it to go through the attack.

When I was worse than I am now, I'd whiffed completely on a Hakumen while I was dying, and he was going to kill me with 6C so I did the follow up and punched him in the face.

the follow up had invincibility!? thats useful to know.

anyways if your opponent is backed to a wall you can 2b before recovery..it hits.

[HZMN]

Forgive me if this has been asked before, but is there any practical usage for the followup to Tager's Magnatech Wheel DD other than extra damage to tack on if it hits? Is it even the best thing to do if the Wheel hits, or are there other superior options yet?

Terra Break (the magna Tech followup) can combo into 6C > AC for a little bit more damage

However in order to land the 6C > AC, you must time Terra Break correctly. If you activate too soon, you tend to miss Terra Break completely and too late means they can tech before the 6C.

[ShinsoBEAM]

Yeah I did a bit of testing also if you have bolt charged you can 5C,bolt,2C for magnets, you can also alternatively just do 5C,6A. Also as far as I can see while you can't do many hits after wards, it doesn't seem to scale down damage as much as you would expect. In my opinion I wouldn't do the followup unless I thought it would end the match right then and there, but still its good to know a few more hits you can do after it to try to rack up the extra like 500 damage needed to finish them.

[Mike Z]

You can't land a 5C after Terra Break on most chars - Jin is the easiest one, and Rachel, obviously. If you do the Terra Break slightly early so they don't hit the floor first, you can followup on every character no matter the position (near corner, etc) with 6B->2C xx AC.

[Gerk]

Interesting. Many thanks for the help, guys :D

[ShinsoBEAM]

You can't land a 5C after Terra Break on most chars - Jin is the easiest one, and Rachel, obviously.

If you do the Terra Break slightly early so they don't hit the floor first, you can followup on every character no matter the position (near corner, etc) with 6B->2C xx AC.

Haha figures those were the two characters I tested it on, thanks for posting what we should follow up with though.

[A.X.I.S.]

i love CH 236B>6C>J.2C>2B>2C>AC. but it best works if they are magnetized...