XDest Posted September 22, 2009 Posted September 22, 2009 Then what WERE ALL OF THESE POSTS FOR?! Someone clean this up or something. I was arguing a point. That's what these posts were for. No need to get worked up.
Mikachiru Posted September 22, 2009 Posted September 22, 2009 Matt why are you continuously posting a link to that thread and I'm only following this because I wanna learn more about match-ups in general... Ditto. I need to know match-up better...
BANGER Posted September 22, 2009 Posted September 22, 2009 j.C will beat Ragna's 6A. j.A should also beat Ragna's 6A. j.C can also clash with ID depending on positioning. Take ID and 6A away from Ragna...and what does he have for AA? It's not the greatest example, but if you notice, whenever Kaqn plays Buppa or Ren, he usually tries to do j.A preemptively to take out Jin in the air rather than 6A. Huh, interesting. I've been hesitant to use j.C lately cause of slow startup and getting countered. Does j.C have more range than Ragna's 6A or something? Gotta try these out. Then I can see how Jin has the advantage. I just know deep down he does, but I couldn't see it or explain it.
Lord Knight Posted September 22, 2009 Posted September 22, 2009 Litchi matchups: Nu: 5-5 Arakune: 4.5-5.5 Rachel: 5.5-4.5 Jin: 4.5-5.5 Carl: 5-5 Ragna: 4.5-5.5 Tao: 5-5 Noel: 6-4 Bang: 5-5 Hakumen: 5-5 Tager: 6-4
ocdscale Posted September 22, 2009 Posted September 22, 2009 Why is Jin 4.5 against Arakune? Granted, Arakune is a tough fight for me, but that's because I personally don't know the matchup. But I'm curious about the theory. Arakune loves being in the air, Jin has great DPs and a very fast super to punish Arakune if he does anything laggy. Of course Arakune has strong tools too, but it seems like Jin can keep him grounded so to speak with tools to avoid the really egregious stuff. I know it's based on the original matchup chart where Ren says he thinks it's 5-5 and Fumo says it's 5.5 in Arakune's favor, so maybe I should be talking to them, but that's not an option so here I am. Is the rationale basically: It's a close fight, but Arakune edges it out because he's Arakune?
Just_here2 Posted September 22, 2009 Posted September 22, 2009 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om-7KbDjMh8 This is probably more representative of Tao vs. Ara then either of the last 2 videos. Note some of the key points in the fight: -Tao wants to get out of curse as quickly as possible, or she will get destroyed. This is why Keita will burst at the end of combos so that the curse will not hit him. -Ara's 2B can catch Tao in the air. (Hima oftens uses it as an anti-air against Tao.) -Dive will often beat Tao's drive. -Ara does not deal with Tao pressure well. Corner pressure hurts a lot unless Ara can tele out. -Tao's 2D and j.D can also lead to big damage against Ara. j.D can also thread through some of Ara's zoning. So, we can see that Tao vs. Ara without curse is pretty even. Both sides have the tools to dismantle the other. Tao vs. Ara with curse, however, is heavily sided in Ara's favor. Tao simply can not handle the constant pressure curse brings, and has to look for a way to poke out.
kensk Posted September 22, 2009 Posted September 22, 2009 tager: nu - 2.5 - 7.5 (there is a single consistent way to beat nu and that is very very slowly get her near a corner and then guess when she tries to escape it) arakune 2 - 8 (you ahve to get lucky on clouds to win, and then out play him on top of this) rachel 3 - 7 (generally bad matchup but you can actually out play her and win) jin 3 - 7 (same as above, jins air options rape tager) carl - 1 - 9 (i legitimately do not think this matchup is winnable without divine intervention once you play a carl that can consistently play intelligently and nail clap loop 100% you literally get 2 chances to kill a character with far better mobility and you cant even fucking combo him or use spark bolt outside of a combo) tao 3.5 - 6.5 (obnoxiously hard matchup, you are never at an advantage in terms of speed and priority, and you both do about equal damage) litchi - 4 - 6 (shitty mid range fight with staff, once litchi loses her staff the tempo swings to being even) ragna 4 - 6 (DP and jC are really all ragna has over tager) noel 4 - 6 (solid options to beat tagers consistently, tager can out guess her though) bang 4 - 6 (crossups, if tager gets momentum he stands a strong chance of winning, also a matchup where IB -> 720 is actually a consistent option besides litchi and ragna) hakumen 4.5 - 5.5 (tager cant recklessly attempt to get it and hakumen can maintain mid range until he has mad orbs, but until then hakumen sucks and tager has advatnage close range once hakumen blows orbs) i formed this opinion from fighting top usa players
qwerty Posted September 22, 2009 Posted September 22, 2009 hakumen's matchups imo ragna: 5.5-4.5 (having to wait out his pressure can be a bit agonizing, otherwise i feel this is pretty much even) jin: 6-4 (high damage output for little/no meter, great pressure and a solid oki game make this matchup a slight pain) noel: 5-5 (gimmicks vs gimmicks, let's rock ) rachel: 7-3 (she can basically do whatever she wants if she has wind meter, but this is why the key to winning this matchup is waiting her out) taokaka: 5.5-4.5 (would be even, but tao completely out runs hakumen. most of the time i'm waiting for a 5A/2A hitconfirm into renka and then land my real damage from wakeup) carl: 4-6 (in hakumen's favor! mostly because carl can't count on me bursting within seven seconds and thus actually has to play this matchup. it's more or less a contest of normals and air to air, the former you win with 6A and 6C, the latter you win with hotaru. if hakumen could land midscreen throw and dustloop combos on carl, i would easily put it at 7-3) litchi: 5-5 (pretty basic matchup; litchi pressures and tries to mix up, hakumen guards and waits for his chance to punish) arakune: 9-1 (AT THE MERE PUSH OF A SINGLE BUTTON) tager: 5-5 (it's basically a contest of who guesses right on hakumen's approaches. hakumen has j.C and hotaru, tager has air throw and backdash -> 360A) bang: 5.5-4.5 (pretty boring match imo. also bang install runaway) nu: 7.5-2.5 (not entirely hopeless like arakune, but hakumen's going to have to outplay the hell out of nu to make any progress)
Mikachiru Posted September 22, 2009 Posted September 22, 2009 hakumen's matchups imo carl: 4-6 (in hakumen's favor! mostly because carl can't count on me bursting within seven seconds and thus actually has to play this matchup. it's more or less a contest of normals and air to air, the former you win with 6A and 6C, the latter you win with hotaru. if hakumen could land midscreen throw and dustloop combos on carl, i would easily put it at 7-3) Okay...I think this is off a bit. 1. Hakumen is a bigger target than most. I think it's pretty easy to bait a burst if you're stuck in a ground loop. No one said that you had to barrier burst in the first seven seconds. Good Carls wait for that to happen. :/ 2. Yes, Hakumen has more range than Carl and most of his normals> Carl's normals, but this battle isn't a battle of normals. Most of the time, it's whether Hakumen slaughters Carl before he does his loops, or Carl rapes Hakumen. Period. 3. Do you fight many Carl? 4. I think 50-50 is right. If not 50-50, then 45-55 in Carl's favor...
qwerty Posted September 22, 2009 Posted September 22, 2009 Okay...I think this is off a bit. 1. Hakumen is a bigger target than most. I think it's pretty easy to bait a burst if you're stuck in a ground loop. No one said that you had to barrier burst in the first seven seconds. Good Carls wait for that to happen. :/ unless i'm almost dead, there is no way i am ever going to burst out of a sandwich string. i'd much rather guess right on the reset, instant block and get out of it than to burst and risk getting hit by the gear super. the risk/reward is simply not in my favor to burst. 2. Yes, Hakumen has more range than Carl and most of his normals> Carl's normals, but this battle isn't a battle of normals. Most of the time, it's whether Hakumen slaughters Carl before he does his loops, or Carl rapes Hakumen. Period. what loop? clap loop? you do know hakumen has two ways out of that, right? 3. Do you fight many Carl? yes, i do (offline even), and from my observation carl has a fairly hard time with hakumen. this is basically the kind of match i'm talking about.
EiseneFaust Posted September 22, 2009 Posted September 22, 2009 [snip] If he tries to hide behind Nirvana we can just 4DD and stop him. I semi agree with Mikachiru. I don't think that the NU v CA match up is 55:45. I think it is 50:50 or maybe even 45:55. Mainly this is due to vivace being incredibly good for closing the distance and a lot of the random pokes CA does can lead to clap trap. And as we all know, once NU is in the clap trap it's incredibly hard (if not perfect) to impossible (if executed perfectly) to get out of it. 4DD is really slow and most CA players I've seen will just vivace on reaction similar to how Ragna can Carnage Scissors or Hakumen can drive counter > IAD. What do you guys think about this match up? Here is a video of Reria v Dio: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLzZMgBpTzI
worldjem7 Posted September 22, 2009 Author Posted September 22, 2009 Reria dropped so many combos in that video it's not even funny.
EiseneFaust Posted September 23, 2009 Posted September 23, 2009 Due to Carl's hit box or the placement required for many of the high damage combos?
kousaka Posted September 23, 2009 Posted September 23, 2009 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om-7KbDjMh8 This is probably more representative of Tao vs. Ara then either of the last 2 videos. Note some of the key points in the fight: -Tao wants to get out of curse as quickly as possible, or she will get destroyed. This is why Keita will burst at the end of combos so that the curse will not hit him. -Ara's 2B can catch Tao in the air. (Hima oftens uses it as an anti-air against Tao.) -Dive will often beat Tao's drive. -Ara does not deal with Tao pressure well. Corner pressure hurts a lot unless Ara can tele out. -Tao's 2D and j.D can also lead to big damage against Ara. j.D can also thread through some of Ara's zoning. So, we can see that Tao vs. Ara without curse is pretty even. Both sides have the tools to dismantle the other. Tao vs. Ara with curse, however, is heavily sided in Ara's favor. Tao simply can not handle the constant pressure curse brings, and has to look for a way to poke out. I agree. This is a good example of the matchup. Both players seem to know it well. Hima doesn't drop clouds carelessly and Keita's looking for openings constantly for a CH. A lot of effort is spent to not get cursed to begin with. While Hima is constantly on defense or if there's a cloud out struggling to chase after Tao. I learned some things from this vid thanks. I will use 2B more against Tao.
Matt Posted September 23, 2009 Posted September 23, 2009 I've been using 5C more often against Tao after seeing this video and found out that 5C absolutely destroys Tao's drive.
kousaka Posted September 23, 2009 Posted September 23, 2009 5c is good but they can use drive B cancel and get a free punish sometimes
Sophisticat Posted September 23, 2009 Posted September 23, 2009 I agree with Qwerty on the Haku:Carl match-up that it's pretty even. I've played some good Carl's on ranked and I have one very good Carl on my friend list, and Haku has the spacing advantage in this match, not to mention the ability to land some hard-hitting combos if he plays patiently. Nirvana is also limited by Haku's big swings. The only thing I've noticed Carl has over Haku is his mobility and small frame. He can go for some quick mix-ups, but in general has a hard time getting in. Even if Haku gets sandwiched, his HP is enough to wait it out, IB, and punish. I don't think I've seen any clap loop get landed on me beyond throw-loop, which I break as soon as possible. Yeah, about even. Perhaps 5.5 to Carl, but that's the most I'd give him.
Mikachiru Posted September 23, 2009 Posted September 23, 2009 I agree with Qwerty on the Haku:Carl match-up that it's pretty even. I've played some good Carl's on ranked and I have one very good Carl on my friend list, and Haku has the spacing advantage in this match, not to mention the ability to land some hard-hitting combos if he plays patiently. Nirvana is also limited by Haku's big swings. The only thing I've noticed Carl has over Haku is his mobility and small frame. He can go for some quick mix-ups, but in general has a hard time getting in. Even if Haku gets sandwiched, his HP is enough to wait it out, IB, and punish. I don't think I've seen any clap loop get landed on me beyond throw-loop, which I break as soon as possible. Yeah, about even. Perhaps 5.5 to Carl, but that's the most I'd give him. 4. I think 50-50 is right. If not 50-50, then 45-55 in Carl's favor... carl: 4-6 (in hakumen's favor! mostly because carl can't count on me bursting within seven seconds and thus actually has to play this matchup. it's more or less a contest of normals and air to air, the former you win with 6A and 6C, the latter you win with hotaru. if hakumen could land midscreen throw and dustloop combos on carl, i would easily put it at 7-3) Qwerty was saying it was 4:6 in Hakumen's favor... I was the one who was saying it was about even or in Carl's favor...
Sophisticat Posted September 23, 2009 Posted September 23, 2009 Whoops. Well, I think the match is pretty even. It feels like it could go either way many times, and all it comes down to is player skill. If I see 5.5 in either Haku's or Carl's favor, that's what I'd consider about right for this match since I feel it hovers around there.
MisoSowee Posted September 23, 2009 Posted September 23, 2009 changing the subject.... why the heck is tager - haku 5.5-4.5 whenever i fight tager i feel like i have an advantage because of spacing and such....
Mikachiru Posted September 23, 2009 Posted September 23, 2009 changing the subject.... why the heck is tager - haku 5.5-4.5 whenever i fight tager i feel like i have an advantage because of spacing and such.... Smooth move, Miso. Spark bolt?
worldjem7 Posted September 23, 2009 Author Posted September 23, 2009 Due to Carl's hit box or the placement required for many of the high damage combos? It's not even that. Whenever Reria got a hit he would either start comboing and then stop or just not follow up at all. And the combos he did manage to land were very rushed and they didn't do the max damage that they could do.
EiseneFaust Posted September 23, 2009 Posted September 23, 2009 I see what you mean worldjem7. Maybe Reria was freaking out with Dio being his opponent. I know for me, I freak out when I play a Carl since I know one good random hit can lead to a clap trap. [EDIT]Does anyone have any good videos for the NU v CA matchup?
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