SuperKawaiiDesu Posted November 12, 2009 Posted November 12, 2009 SKD is rather touchy when it comes with noel.... and I'd like to discuss haku vs tager.... I just DON'T see why it would be in his favor. and please don't say 360a 'nuff said and close the case. More like i get touchy when people (or you) talk about stuff they dont know (or you just talk) But i love you deep down miso.
MisoSowee Posted November 12, 2009 Posted November 12, 2009 More like i get touchy when people (or you) talk about stuff they dont know (or you just talk) Let's transition my skill vs noel to tager. Yeah that's totally fair :\ I'm being serious compared to day 1 you're totally different. You think you can just cover up a rude comment with some stupid quip.
A.X.I.S. Posted November 12, 2009 Posted November 12, 2009 its because haku have to rely on thwarting tager in his attempts, one 360 and shit goes sideways for you. But you gotta remember a thorough understanding of tager's tech traps is vital in this match-up. If you've got that it really isn't so confusing as any old mix-up if you can see the consistencies within the tager's set-ups. backdash gets punished by 5A and J.A 5a and j.A don't go into anything unless hakumen is magnetized though.... true but it beats back dash and once you hit tager you can begin doing some damage, and put us in a bad spot, remember everything gives haku meter, even the small stuff. if it he's predictable but tager can also air throw you out and not to mention you guys just like tager have to rely on fuck ups, Hakumen should NOT be in the air that much (well mine isn't, not telling anyone how to play hakumen) I'm doing this from the standpoint of a turtle hakumen. no haku shouldn't jump alot but he shouldn't be on the ground in 360 range either. like 5D>236B if tager throws a loose 5D on you guys its a free combo and if you have meter then poof we lost 4k hp and you guys get advantage. Which therein lies why i don't think this should be in tager's favor, a hakumen player should only be throwing counters upon reaction to 5d,2d, sledge; among other things. yeah but it doesn't mean we can't get predictable then break it in a instant, i see haku's try to J.D me commonly and at some point i either land then do 720, air throw, or j.2C. you guys have no oki on get up, ok you guys got 214B but if tager have meter or or just feel like 360ing then you guys waste 2 meter. True, his oki isn't amazing but it's completely safe. Because of hakumens' aerial state within a hop, all throws are negated and if he cancels into 214b then it's totally safe and the hakumen can jump in our out depending on what he feels like doing. yeah but we can also bait you on wake up and punish 214B, tager can't do much if your on the ground, except scoop you up and tech trap, but other than that you got me there. lets go over our options. round 1 start. 2c as hakumen is only beaten (from what I"ve gotten so far) by j.A and 5a I believe. 360a doesn't reach unless it has to be delayed or something. Remember seeing someone whiff it on me. backdash, low block, thats it! meaning at the begining haku will beat us, this is a game of checkers and you guys are the smoke before our fire, meaning we can't do much unless you do something we can't punish, but at the same time you can't keep us away either. haku has us in 6C range, we can IB 6C IB 6c would hit? From the sound of it it's far too slow to catch hakumen after 6c. If it doesn't then you just set yourself up for a frame trap. (well.. kinda a frame trap?) or hop no i mean we can IB your 6C, which means we don't get pushed back, which is bad when you wanna zone. No hop for tager :[ toward you and J.C for the boost you lose that reach then it becomes a game of jump and punish 2c is the god's anti-air in this instance. It reaches really high, but you also have to be careful NOT to let the j.2c delay pass by it (hakumen's 2c has a pitiful amount of active frames, like most of the moves in BB) If you can master doing 2c safely it's quite a fortress to go over. (however some tagers vs. me have had a little bit of success with j.D, but I haven't faced it enough to really assess it. J.D won't hit you unless we time it right, and its not worth it if it means we trade with you ugh. if its not j.A you eat a 360 clean, if we don't back up then i assure you, you will have meter to hotaru? is that what the anti air kick is? and jump out, from what i get wiff or miss you get a second chance, and without a magnet we can't do anything, good haku's won't let us stack a magnet unless they get combo'd, cactus guy, fullautodeath, jackmfg, and SA town are all examples. I'll agree. Getting a magnet on you can be veeeery confusing. Jumping is unsafe, and you'll slowly be drawn into mix-up range. Best thing to do would be hop cancel hotaru and catch the tager in one of his moves, or just be very careful when countering (i've had some really odd times when you'd think I'm in range for the counter, but tager stops juuuuuuust out of range and doesn't hit me. I'll need to remember those ranges :P once we have the magnet it gets pretty bad for you we can mix you up, and lock you down, i had luck with J.B in some cases and getting hop 360's because haku's want to counter during the hectic moments, and its not hard to put you on the magnet, i spark bolt haku's and if they block you are gonna get drawn in and will either get defensive or burn your meter risking that punish. so in other words its a game of who can punish who better in this case tager can fuck haku up if he messes up a counter, in which case tagers 6A feels like the biggest punish, a counter hit on this with a spark bolt says 5k damage and we could RC without spark bolt and still come out with 5k+ without bolt, magnet keeps you guys from wanting to come in so we have to step up and keep a eye on your meter. I'll also agree. The moment that hakumen slips a counter tager can really lay down the hurt, especially in a slower match like hakumen vs tager. All of the momentum hakumen gains from his counter - supers can be lost from one of tager's combos (and the frame/tech trap follow-ups!) yeah and we want you to slip up, and make it hurt. i'd finish this up later but to me it feels like i can do alot more damage on haku's mistakes then i can, and without a corner or alot of meter you can't do much to us. sorry if it seems half assed gotta do some stuff. be backs. ok gotta add some more. haku have to do whatever damage his meter lets him do and tager can do 3k easy with a magnet without waiting, so our damage output is higher unless you got 4 or more meter. so its like a game of arms, but we are the stronger guy, bigger punishes and a much better mix up game.
MisoSowee Posted November 12, 2009 Posted November 12, 2009 its because haku have to rely on thwarting tager in his attempts, one 360 and shit goes sideways for you. But you gotta remember a thorough understanding of tager's tech traps is vital in this match-up. If you've got that it really isn't so confusing as any old mix-up if you can see the consistencies within the tager's set-ups. backdash gets punished by 5A and J.A 5a and j.A don't go into anything unless hakumen is magnetized though.... true but it beats back dash and once you hit tager you can begin doing some damage, and put us in a bad spot, remember everything gives haku meter, even the small stuff. if it he's predictable but tager can also air throw you out and not to mention you guys just like tager have to rely on fuck ups, Hakumen should NOT be in the air that much (well mine isn't, not telling anyone how to play hakumen) I'm doing this from the standpoint of a turtle hakumen. no haku shouldn't jump alot but he shouldn't be on the ground in 360 range either. like 5D>236B if tager throws a loose 5D on you guys its a free combo and if you have meter then poof we lost 4k hp and you guys get advantage. Which therein lies why i don't think this should be in tager's favor, a hakumen player should only be throwing counters upon reaction to 5d,2d, sledge; among other things. yeah but it doesn't mean we can't get predictable then break it in a instant, i see haku's try to J.D me commonly and at some point i either land then do 720, air throw, or j.2C. you guys have no oki on get up, ok you guys got 214B but if tager have meter or or just feel like 360ing then you guys waste 2 meter. True, his oki isn't amazing but it's completely safe. Because of hakumens' aerial state within a hop, all throws are negated and if he cancels into 214b then it's totally safe and the hakumen can jump in our out depending on what he feels like doing. yeah but we can also bait you on wake up and punish 214B, tager can't do much if your on the ground, except scoop you up and tech trap, but other than that you got me there. lets go over our options. round 1 start. 2c as hakumen is only beaten (from what I"ve gotten so far) by j.A and 5a I believe. 360a doesn't reach unless it has to be delayed or something. Remember seeing someone whiff it on me. backdash, low block, thats it! meaning at the begining haku will beat us, this is a game of checkers and you guys are the smoke before our fire, meaning we can't do much unless you do something we can't punish, but at the same time you can't keep us away either. haku has us in 6C range, we can IB 6C IB 6c would hit? From the sound of it it's far too slow to catch hakumen after 6c. If it doesn't then you just set yourself up for a frame trap. (well.. kinda a frame trap?) or hop no i mean we can IB your 6C, which means we don't get pushed back, which is bad when you wanna zone. No hop for tager :[ toward you and J.C for the boost you lose that reach then it becomes a game of jump and punish 2c is the god's anti-air in this instance. It reaches really high, but you also have to be careful NOT to let the j.2c delay pass by it (hakumen's 2c has a pitiful amount of active frames, like most of the moves in BB) If you can master doing 2c safely it's quite a fortress to go over. (however some tagers vs. me have had a little bit of success with j.D, but I haven't faced it enough to really assess it. J.D won't hit you unless we time it right, and its not worth it if it means we trade with you ugh. if its not j.A you eat a 360 clean, if we don't back up then i assure you, you will have meter to hotaru? is that what the anti air kick is? and jump out, from what i get wiff or miss you get a second chance, and without a magnet we can't do anything, good haku's won't let us stack a magnet unless they get combo'd, cactus guy, fullautodeath, jackmfg, and SA town are all examples. I'll agree. Getting a magnet on you can be veeeery confusing. Jumping is unsafe, and you'll slowly be drawn into mix-up range. Best thing to do would be hop cancel hotaru and catch the tager in one of his moves, or just be very careful when countering (i've had some really odd times when you'd think I'm in range for the counter, but tager stops juuuuuuust out of range and doesn't hit me. I'll need to remember those ranges :P once we have the magnet it gets pretty bad for you we can mix you up, and lock you down, i had luck with J.B in some cases and getting hop 360's because haku's want to counter during the hectic moments, and its not hard to put you on the magnet, i spark bolt haku's and if they block you are gonna get drawn in and will either get defensive or burn your meter risking that punish. so in other words its a game of who can punish who better in this case tager can fuck haku up if he messes up a counter, in which case tagers 6A feels like the biggest punish, a counter hit on this with a spark bolt says 5k damage and we could RC without spark bolt and still come out with 5k+ without bolt, magnet keeps you guys from wanting to come in so we have to step up and keep a eye on your meter. I'll also agree. The moment that hakumen slips a counter tager can really lay down the hurt, especially in a slower match like hakumen vs tager. All of the momentum hakumen gains from his counter - supers can be lost from one of tager's combos (and the frame/tech trap follow-ups!) yeah and we want you to slip up, and make it hurt. i'd finish this up later but to me it feels like i can do alot more damage on haku's mistakes then i can, and without a corner or alot of meter you can't do much to us. sorry if it seems half assed gotta do some stuff. be backs. ok gotta add some more. haku have to do whatever damage his meter lets him do and tager can do 3k easy with a magnet without waiting, so our damage output is higher unless you got 4 or more meter. so its like a game of arms, but we are the stronger guy, bigger punishes and a much better mix up game. I'm kind of confused where you did and did not place your own opinions.... for now i'll comment on the last one o_o I just want to start off by saying meter is VERY easy to come by if you play right. VERY. I've only had a few instances in the beginning of a match where I didn't have 4 stars to shippu after a counter. If you play your game right and stall, it's quite easy to get a handful of stars to create a safety line in case things crap up really badly. Tager might have bigger punishes but they do not come nearly as easily as hakumen's do. Only things you can take advantage of are whiffed counters, stupid C moves, and careless movement, which really shouldn't be happening. Basically if hakumen plays his cards right and doesn't set himself up for tech traps there's really not much of a reason for this to be in tager's favor....
dragontamer Posted November 12, 2009 Posted November 12, 2009 Oh god, Omnislashed posts. For the sake of everyone else guys: please follow this general structure. Initiator: ---------- 1. Thesis / Primary Point 2. Supporting Evidence 3. Conclusion / Summary Counter: ------------ 1. Thesis (usually in the form, "You are wrong") 2. Supporting Evidence 3. Conclusion / Summary Counter-Counter Argument: ----------- 1. Thesis (usually in the form: "No, here's more evidence why I'm right") 2. Supporting Evidence 3. Conclusion / Summary etc. etc. Omnislashed posts do not make good reading material. And if you can't put your argument / arguments in the above form, then you probably don't have a point (ie: no thesis), or you don't have any evidence. In either case, you should give up.
A.X.I.S. Posted November 12, 2009 Posted November 12, 2009 I'm kind of confused where you did and did not place your own opinions.... for now i'll comment on the last one o_o I just want to start off by saying meter is VERY easy to come by if you play right. VERY. I've only had a few instances in the beginning of a match where I didn't have 4 stars to shippu after a counter. If you play your game right and stall, it's quite easy to get a handful of stars to create a safety line in case things crap up really badly. Tager might have bigger punishes but they do not come nearly as easily as hakumen's do. Only things you can take advantage of are whiffed counters, stupid C moves, and careless movement, which really shouldn't be happening. Basically if hakumen plays his cards right and doesn't set himself up for tech traps there's really not much of a reason for this to be in tager's favor.... the same same thing in haku's case, haku is not going to do real damage unless he gets a hole in tagers defense and use the meter, and depending on how messed up things are depends on how much you can do, while tager can just out right muscle you from the get go. tager needs 3 good combos for haku to die, haku needs 4 or more depending on what he has when he gets that hit in, from what i see haku has to make a opening on tager but all tager has to do is get passed that sword and mix in a few pokes and throws and haku is in big trouble. i will make the other things easier to see. lol whoops.
MisoSowee Posted November 12, 2009 Posted November 12, 2009 Pro stuff NO. j/k it's just i have no clue what you're saying ^^ the same same thing in haku's case, haku is not going to do real damage unless he gets a hole in tagers defense and use the meter, and depending on how messed up things are depends on how much you can do, while tager can just out right muscle you from the get go. tager needs 3 good combos for haku to die, haku needs 4 or more depending on what he has when he gets that hit in, from what i see haku has to make a opening on tager but all tager has to do is get passed that sword and mix in a few pokes and throws and haku is in big trouble. i will make the other things easier to see. lol whoops. but most of the holes comes from tager's coming in. Sledge, 2d, 5d, 6c, and even to an extent 6a are all out because they're easily countered. Aerial route is shut off by 2c/hotaru. tager has to be really careful getting in, but at the same time, being careful is wasting time, and wasting time is stars for haku. Getting into mix-up range isn't just "ho-hum lemme walk into your personal bubble" you've gotta work for it, and that's why I think the line should be drawn at even.
Heroic_Legacy Posted November 12, 2009 Posted November 12, 2009 its not too bad for tager, i just chill through the whole fight, walking through the mounds of shit she throws at me, the trick is when i get close how to lock her down, how to get the magnet on her and to keep under pressure, wants i find the suitable means of locking her in, the match quickly turns to my favor. for tager its literally getting close without triggering a counter hit, hitting her, then pressuring her, find a way to net some damage, bait a burst (hard as hell to do) then deliver the final blow. What. Tager can't lock her in, if anything she's locking you in. Seriously what Rachels are you playing? A Rachel vs Tager means Rachel is not on the ground at all. There are no lobelias, and no random summons. We can't do anything about j.A j.C or j.2CC. We have to IB ANY B we see to get a chance out of lockdown. It isn't getting close. Rachel is in your face from the getgo and none of your moves outprioritize her's on startup. And when you do some damage, you can't win anyway. Rachel just comes back in with heavier rushdown with a pumpkin this time since she got away from it the first time. It isn't walking through shit, it's IB'ing whatever the hell you see for meter and 360'ing any move she does on the ground with those 5 frames you get.
A.X.I.S. Posted November 12, 2009 Posted November 12, 2009 NO. j/k it's just i have no clue what you're saying ^^ but most of the holes comes from tager's coming in. Sledge, 2d, 5d, 6c, and even to an extent 6a are all out because they're easily countered. Aerial route is shut off by 2c/hotaru. tager has to be really careful getting in, but at the same time, being careful is wasting time, and wasting time is stars for haku. Getting into mix-up range isn't just "ho-hum lemme walk into your personal bubble" you've gotta work for it, and that's why I think the line should be drawn at even. yeah its work alot of work, but we are suppose to bait counters and avoid using moves that get punished, i named 6A as a punish to a wiff counter, everything else wouldn't be as rewarding when it comes to that. at the same time haku is not gonna do much without meter and thats the problem for haku, and believe me when i say we can't rush it and we gotta put you in spots that makes you waste meter, and for haku meter is all he got at cracking us to bits except for 2D, the combo's off of throws and 2D's are damn near illegal. @ heroic legacy: you make it sound like rachel doesn't summon pumpkin at all, even if she is rushing us down we should be able to IB it and your forgetting about silpheed, rachel won't be doing alot of crazy stuff without wind to use.
MisoSowee Posted November 12, 2009 Posted November 12, 2009 So do you think it's even or not?!?! >:[ And you can't punish with 6a when you don't whiff a counter... :] *even plawks*
A.X.I.S. Posted November 12, 2009 Posted November 12, 2009 So do you think it's even or not?!?! >:[ And you can't punish with 6a when you don't whiff a counter... :] *even plawks* simplified. tager has bigger mix ups and damage output. haku can keep tager away and still do decent damage. from my experience it sounds about even at the least.
MisoSowee Posted November 12, 2009 Posted November 12, 2009 simplified. tager has bigger mix ups and damage output. haku can keep tager away and still do decent damage. from my experience it sounds about even at the least. case clooooooooooooooooooooooooooosed.... for now. No higher-level players have dimed in yet though.
Henaki Posted November 12, 2009 Posted November 12, 2009 its mild advantage hakumen, 5.5-4.5 hakus favor, he haku couldnt sit half screen and get orbs to mixup into throw/instant overhead/low/hotaru (which tager has very few counters for and they're all risky as hell). also the fact that reaction parry shuts down tagers drive game super fucking hard. the only thing is haku doesnt have rock solid pressure like ragna or noel who can easily mixup their point blank strings into stuff that just beats ib 720 clean, so he can just rely on mashin 2a or anything, without hotaru point blank is in fact a dangerous risk because tagers damage is comparable and hakus options are limited enough to get hit by it. also imo without hotaru hakumen is at a pretty solid disadvantage. he should never approach tager without 3 bars ever.
dragontamer Posted November 12, 2009 Posted November 12, 2009 By "Instant Overhead" I assume you mean 2147C ? (Specifically, a Tiger-Kneed j.214C?)
MisoSowee Posted November 12, 2009 Posted November 12, 2009 That and hop cancel/ 663214c. The beginning movements are pretty ambiguous, so it's more "instant" I'm guessing is what he meant. Kind of like Rachel's j.A overhead vs tager. It looks instant, but behind it has jump start-up and a few start-up frames for the poke itself. EDIT: fuzzy guard? That's a new term for me....
Henaki Posted November 12, 2009 Posted November 12, 2009 its called instant because no human has the reaction time to block it without a blind guess. fuzzy guard is when you force someone to block high (in this case a jC), their standing hitbox when blocking applies even if they crouch, forcing some air attacks to hit you on your way up that normally otherwise wouldnt if you crouch blocked. basically its an overhead thats only valid after a jump in, but you cant react to it so...
MisoSowee Posted November 12, 2009 Posted November 12, 2009 I just googled fighting game fuzzy guard and stumbled upon a post about ABA's fuzzy guard. I was wondering because in the other post it mentioned about a glitch where crouch blocking after blocking high makes you retain your hitbox when blocking high. Does this still strike true in BB as it does in GG? I'd rather use that instead of j214c as a double overhead.
Henaki Posted November 12, 2009 Posted November 12, 2009 ...yes it does, it happens in almost every 2d fighter i can think of.
Brother Mojo Posted November 12, 2009 Posted November 12, 2009 Fuzzy guards aren't really a glitch per se... it's more that they aren't really avoidable due to the nature of blockstun and block switching. When you're in blockstun, you're stuck in the blocking pose appropriate to your block type (high, low, air), and not really allowed to do anything else, with specific exceptions like Dead Angle/Counter Assault, Burst, etc. The most important exception, however, is switching your block type, so that you don't get stupid unblockables just from following up a high move with a lot of blockstun with a low, or vice-versa. However, as mentioned, your pose is stuck the same due to the blockstun. So, if you're hit by an attack while you're guarding high, and then you press down-back, you'll still look like you're standing and blocking and still have the corresponding hitbox, even though now you'll get hit by overheads and successfully block lows. As soon as you block another attack, your character's pose will switch accordingly and your blockstun will reset. You could theoretically allow a character's pose to change during blockstun between standing and crouching block, but that would look really stupid in certain situations, plus it would give the attacker more visual cues as to how the defender is blocking at any given moment which would pretty radically alter the dynamics of the mixup game, I think.
Spirit Juice Posted November 12, 2009 Posted November 12, 2009 What. Tager can't lock her in, if anything she's locking you in. Seriously what Rachels are you playing? A Rachel vs Tager means Rachel is not on the ground at all. There are no lobelias, and no random summons. We can't do anything about j.A j.C or j.2CC. We have to IB ANY B we see to get a chance out of lockdown. It isn't getting close. Rachel is in your face from the getgo and none of your moves outprioritize her's on startup. And when you do some damage, you can't win anyway. Rachel just comes back in with heavier rushdown with a pumpkin this time since she got away from it the first time. It isn't walking through shit, it's IB'ing whatever the hell you see for meter and 360'ing any move she does on the ground with those 5 frames you get. Rachel can play the match at whatever pace she wants. If she does it correctly, Tager can try and spend the entire round getting in on Rachel, or she can pretty much rush him down really hard due to his poor defensive options and large hit box. To say "there are no lobelias and no random summons" is an ignorant statement. That said, I somewhat discourage character specific match up details in this thread. In other words, I think it's best for the thread that people avoid talking about X character vs Y character in one post (rather than multiple characters and their match-ups). We have character specific forums relating to that, so please just ask there instead of cluttering up this thread. I'm not saying it's horrible to talk about, but I think that kind of talk is better to talk about in the respective character forums.
worldjem7 Posted November 12, 2009 Author Posted November 12, 2009 I understand that the character boards are there for a reason, but I don't think it can be avoided that some discussions end up being quite in-depth as it's the only way to properly find what each match-up is. Spirit Juice, do you think it would be appropriate if I made a dedicated thread for each character in their respective forums to discuss match-ups pertaining to this chart?
MisoSowee Posted November 12, 2009 Posted November 12, 2009 I understand that the character boards are there for a reason, but I don't think it can be avoided that some discussions end up being quite in-depth as it's the only way to properly find what each match-up is. Spirit Juice, do you think it would be appropriate if I made a dedicated thread for each character in their respective forums to discuss match-ups pertaining to this chart? That would work. But I'm highly doubting everyone wants to look in each and every forum to look for the mention of their character... ya know? 1 thread is nice because it's a single place to look for discussion, and if your character is being discussed you can put in your dime and get out.
Jourdal Posted November 12, 2009 Posted November 12, 2009 I prefer Worldjem7's idea...1 thread for 12 characters and multiple matchups will get cluttered and anyone not there from the beginning will be lost and have trouble looking for what they need to find/discuss..as opposed to a few simple clicks.
A.X.I.S. Posted November 12, 2009 Posted November 12, 2009 Rachel can play the match at whatever pace she wants. If she does it correctly, Tager can try and spend the entire round getting in on Rachel, or she can pretty much rush him down really hard due to his poor defensive options and large hit box. To say "there are no lobelias and no random summons" is an ignorant statement. That said, I somewhat discourage character specific match up details in this thread. In other words, I think it's best for the thread that people avoid talking about X character vs Y character in one post (rather than multiple characters and their match-ups). We have character specific forums relating to that, so please just ask there instead of cluttering up this thread. I'm not saying it's horrible to talk about, but I think that kind of talk is better to talk about in the respective character forums. beat me to it. FUUU---!!! i agree with worldjem's idea, and i think it could actually change the match up chart.
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