BlazBlue CALAMITY TRIGGER Match-Up Chart

[Zenmetsu]

Im really confused as to why people talk about it being a moot point. It has a shorter punish window, and puts her only at standing CH as opposed to Jins (crouch CH or D DP which is also good but blows meter) and Ragnas (you have the choice of an air CH OR ground CH for optimal damage) and on whiff, much harder to punish. Its not like that DP is only good on oki. It also is pretty good in the sense that it clashes with almost nothing to my knowledge, as opposed to ragna's who can get clashed, or jins who can get poked but still get his DP blocked.

But see, now we're talking about the DP as a move in general. That's not what I was refuting. I only talked about how you can't bring matters involving execution into an argument about tiers. To emphasize, you can't bring difficulty of execution into a topic about tiers because if something is useful (such as optimal punishment for a blocked/whiffed DP) then people will learn how to do it and it will get used in high-level matches.

[mAc Chaos]

I agree with Zenmetsu, generally, but on the note about execution complexity being excluded from tiers: I think it DOES play a certain part in it. Consider a tournament match: both players are playing in a tense environment that tends to produce more mistakes than usual, and where one mistake at the wrong time can cost you the entire match. A player playing a character with relatively easy execution (ie., Nu) versus another character that has a more difficult execution means that the first player is less likely to make mistakes of that sort and lose because of it, simply due to the character's design.

[Zenmetsu]

I agree with Zenmetsu, generally, but on the note about execution complexity being excluded from tiers: I think it DOES play a certain part in it. Consider a tournament match: both players are playing in a tense environment that tends to produce more mistakes than usual, and where one mistake at the wrong time can cost you the entire match. A player playing a character with relatively easy execution (ie., Nu) versus another character that has a more difficult execution means that the first player is less likely to make mistakes of that sort and lose because of it, simply due to the character's design.

These are just outside variables that gauge the ability of the PLAYER and not the potential that the characters IN THE GAME have.

Consider this case:

Nu vs Carl in a high-level tournament. The Nu player has a cold that's giving him an excruciating headache while the Carl player is in top condition, and as a result the Nu player lost due to lack of concentration.

You are saying now that because the Nu lost to Carl since the Nu player had a cold says something about the match-up between Nu and Carl and the tiering of these respective characters as a whole?

So in the same way, the tense player who mis-executes a combo due to playing a "hard-to-play" character while under pressure should be some sort of indication that the character he is playing is bad?

[STenSatsu]

Only thing that litchi has good damage off of compared to pretty much everyone outside Bang is her itsuuC bnb which is like 3500 midscreen. Everything else is pretty meh. Less than 3k unless you start talking riichi or raw chun/haku hits which most characters would get way more damage out of comparable starters. (Remember that even in her own tier you have ragna/tao/noel who all get 4k+ off much easier setups.)

[SuperKawaiiDesu]

But see, now we're talking about the DP as a move in general. That's not what I was refuting. I only talked about how you can't bring matters involving execution into an argument about tiers. To emphasize, you can't bring difficulty of execution into a topic about tiers because if something is useful (such as optimal punishment for a blocked/whiffed DP) then people will learn how to do it and it will get used in high-level matches.

oh haha seems like i posted without reading very thoroughly. But it being difficult to punish on whiff still counts no? She has noticably less recovery than the other 2 DP's, so on whiff, it is "more difficult to punish".

Say i jump towards you and airdash back as a fake. If litchi whiffs a DP, chances are i wont get a punish. Ill get a punish on the other 2 dp's though, if they whiff. In a sense its "harder to punish" but maintaining the properties of a DP at no cost.

Sten, look

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKJKNM_hkMQ

[Zenmetsu]

But it being difficult to punish on whiff still counts no? She has noticably less recovery than the other 2 DP's, so on whiff, it is "more difficult to punish".

Say i jump towards you and airdash back as a fake. If litchi whiffs a DP, chances are i wont get a punish. Ill get a punish on the other 2 dp's though, if they whiff. In a sense its "harder to punish" but maintaining the properties of a DP at no cost.

Your example is getting into specific, match-up related scenarios. I'm assuming you are talking about the Noel vs Ragna/Jin/Litchi match-up. There are more liberties Noel can take with her okizeme approach when dealing with Ragna and Jin's uppercuts as opposed to Litchi's. The design of Litchi's uppercut forces Noel to put more commitment into her approach if you want to be in a position to punish. That just means IADing back isn't a valid option against Litchi's uppercut if you are Noel, and if you choose to use this tactic then you aren't putting commitment into dealing with Litchi's uppercut. Use another strategy that has more commitment.

XDest seemed to suggest that just because a character has a hard-to-punish uppercut on block (you can assume and infer this because he mentioned "at tip range", which may refer to blocking) should give reason to be placed higher on the tier list. There are holes to this statement.

When you evaluate Litchi's DP as a move on wake-up the fact remains that it is a high-risk, medium reward move. Litchi can only use her DP when she has her staff, so she doesn't always have it. When her DP gets blocked she loses her staff. When she connects with it she gets mediocre damage plus a knockdown. Overall, it's a reliable, useful uppercut but far from godly or broken when you take the risk vs reward into account, and it is definitely NOT enough reason to bump her up on the tier list.

If having an uppercut was such a crucial factor in determining the tiering in BlazBlue then how come the top three don't have one, yet they are undeniably the three best characters in the game? And before anybody says anything about Rachel's 2C, it is not an uppercut in the traditional sense so don't bring it up.

[qwerty]

I wish there was a Mike Z for Hakumen. ;_;

me

[SuperKawaiiDesu]

Your example is getting into specific, match-up related scenarios. I'm assuming you are talking about the Noel vs Ragna/Jin/Litchi match-up. There are more liberties Noel can take with her okizeme approach when dealing with Ragna and Jin's uppercuts as opposed to Litchi's. The design of Litchi's uppercut forces Noel to put more commitment into her approach if you want to be in a position to punish. That just means IADing back isn't a valid option against Litchi's uppercut if you are Noel, and if you choose to use this tactic then you aren't putting commitment into dealing with Litchi's uppercut. Use another strategy that has more commitment.

Lol i was actually thinking of Jin but ok. Well in noel v litchi, i usually do dash > barrier so i can punish with 5C in the case of a DP, but if someone OMG mindreads me, they may take that as a chance to quickwakeup/recover into a string or mixup, i dont want to put myself in that position.

XDest seemed to suggest that just because a character has a hard-to-punish uppercut on block (you can assume and infer this because he mentioned "at tip range", which may refer to blocking) should give reason to be placed higher on the tier list. There are holes to this statement.

When you evaluate Litchi's DP as a move on wake-up the fact remains that it is a high-risk, medium reward move. Litchi can only use her DP when she has her staff, so she doesn't always have it. When her DP gets blocked she loses her staff. When she connects with it she gets mediocre damage plus a knockdown. Overall, it's a reliable, useful uppercut but far from godly or broken when you take the risk vs reward into account, and it is definitely NOT enough reason to bump her up on the tier list.

Personally, i think the reward is quite great for the amount of risk it has, when compared to the other DP's. When she doesnt have her staff, then thats a chance to fully pressure her, her DP is really good otherwise so having times when you cant use it is pretty fair ;\ you shouldnt ONLY be using it on oki either, you keep bringing up only oki ;(

If having an uppercut was such a crucial factor in determining the tiering in BlazBlue then how come the top three don't have one, yet they are undeniably the three best characters in the game? And before anybody says anything about Rachel's 2C, it is not an uppercut in the traditional sense so don't bring it up.

Also, rachel's 2C!

[MisoSowee]

me

I see what u did thar.

Good one good one~

[Skye]

Every command DP is very risky, if blocked, for the record guys, so that's not a very convincing argument.

[XDest]

I apologize then, haven't spent enough time on Litchi, that's why I asked a question. And got a straight answer. Thanks.

[Zenmetsu]

Also, rachel's 2C!

I lulzed.

Personally, i think the reward is quite great for the amount of risk it has, when compared to the other DP's. When she doesnt have her staff, then thats a chance to fully pressure her, her DP is really good otherwise so having times when you cant use it is pretty fair ;\ you shouldnt ONLY be using it on oki either, you keep bringing up only oki ;(

"...it is pretty fair ;\"

There. All things considered Litchi's uppercut is fair, and you even said it yourself. My point is that her DP is not enough of a reason to boost her up to A-tier or the top of whatever tier she's in like a lot of people have been previously suggesting. I'm dispelling misguided thoughts.

Also, I only bring it up in oki because it's easier to explain cause-and-effect when you isolate specific scenarios. I'm pretty sure you would agree with this statement. In any event, I don't think the idea changes when you expand it to other scenarios like footsies/tachimawari. If you know she's going to use her frame-1 invincible move then simply bait and punish. Dealing with her uppercut is not rocket science, and it is definitely not a safe, high reward move that leads into GGPO triple unblockable setups like another character in another game.

The reason why Litchi is so low on the tier list is because the bulk of her match-ups are 5-5, with a couple slightly in her favor, and a few more slightly not in her favor. When you tally everything up she winds up where she is on the tier list -- very low. It doesn't necessarily mean she's a bad character. It just means she too 'fair' in a game that has way too many broken mechanics.

If any of you want to make bold statements such as, "Litchi needs to be in A tier" then you first need to re-evaluate and explain why the majority of her match-ups are equal to or absurdly more than 5-5 like the rest of top tier so that her total tally comes out positive.

But I know none of you can do that.

[Skye]

If any of you want to make bold statements such as, "Litchi needs to be in A tier" then you first need to re-evaluate and explain why the majority of her match-ups are equal to or absurdly more than 5-5 like the rest of top tier so that her total tally comes out positive.

But I know none of you can do that.

You know verbally saying it doesn't mean you're the only one aware of that. You were only debating with 1 person, don't drag everyone else into it. That's just condescending.

Plus the subject is long dropped.

So! ^^

New topic!

I'd like for someone to explain to me why is Bang low tier.

Call me stupid if need me, but aside from his damage output, he's a very solid character, and has plenty of options in plenty of match ups. I'd like some clarity.

[shtkn]

tiers don't matter. matchups matter. stop bitching that chars should be A tier or S tier or whatever bs.

[Mishaguji]

So! ^^

New topic!

I'd like for someone to explain to me why is Bang low tier.

Call me stupid if need me, but aside from his damage output, he's a very solid character, and has plenty of options in plenty of match ups. I'd like some clarity.

Because he has only four even/good match ups, including himself. Everyone else has an advantage over him. Unless someone would like to argue why Bang should have a better match up against XXX, he'll be down there...

[Skye]

Like, how are some matches against his favor, not the whole synopsis, but brief disadvantages he has against *this character* or *that character*.

[Mishaguji]

Like, how are some matches against his favor, not the whole synopsis, but brief disadvantages he has against *this character* or *that character*.

From the Bang players on Carl:

bang v carl is 3-7, def not 4.5 - 5.5.

^ agreed

and bang IS ass for tager, just not nearly as bad as nu/ara or even rachel imo. (i also dont know what you're smoking if you think he goes even with jin...when does jin ever have to be in a position to get hit)

it's mostly awful because

A) Bang has the same issue as Tager in that clap loop is totally inescapable

B) Not very many good combos work on Carl

IMO though its more like 6.5-3.5 or 6-4 since Fire Knuckle combos will keep Carl far away from Nee-san, and its not drastically hard to keep Carl away once you have Nee-san out of the way.

Searching for more info, but that's what I get from this thread so far...

[Skye]

Well, I imagine Carl would have an advantage, if he runs even with Arakune, then that's food for thought on how Bang can manage.

[Eshi]

I have a seriously hard time understanding why Jin vs. Carl is in Jin's favor while Arakune vs. Carl is even. Can anyone explain? I'm under the impression that Arakune's damage and space control are above Jin's plus he can play keep away against Carl all day.

[Heroic_Legacy]

Bang is a very bad matchup for Tager. 8-2/7-3. Already explained earlier this thread, also, TenStars' first post in the matchup thread agrees.

[AdamNW]

If any of you want to make bold statements such as, "Litchi needs to be in A tier" then you first need to re-evaluate and explain why the majority of her match-ups are equal to or absurdly more than 5-5 like the rest of top tier so that her total tally comes out positive.

I find it extremely difficulty to land hits on decent Litchis, but you already tore apart that argument

[Ronove]

I have a seriously hard time understanding why Jin vs. Carl is in Jin's favor while Arakune vs. Carl is even. Can anyone explain? I'm under the impression that Arakune's damage and space control are above Jin's plus he can play keep away against Carl all day.

I can only speculate on this since I'm a Tao player, but I guess Carl probably suffers against Jin for the same reasons Tao does: once Jin's scored a knockdown he can start his really good oki game and litterally keep you on the defensive until you're pushed to the corner. He pretty much has that advantage in that specific situation (knockdown->oki) against characters that don't have good reversal moves, unless these characters have a good keepaway game, of course.

[Justice7541]

You know verbally saying it doesn't mean you're the only one aware of that. You were only debating with 1 person, don't drag everyone else into it. That's just condescending.

Plus the subject is long dropped.

So! ^^

New topic!

I'd like for someone to explain to me why is Bang low tier.

Call me stupid if need me, but aside from his damage output, he's a very solid character, and has plenty of options in plenty of match ups. I'd like some clarity.

1) No AA. The best he has is 5A. Seriously.

2) Everything is extremely unsafe. He HAS to JC all his moves because his safest normal is like -10 on block, which makes him very predictable. Hell, even his backdash is heavily punishable because it's slow, and has like 20 frames of recovery.

3) Crap damage output. If you want seals, he gets like 2.5k per combo. Without, he gets like 3k. He barely gets 4k in optimal condition (character-specific CH combo off a 2D, etc.) and even with meter he barely gets over 5k, again in optimal conditions (off CH j.D against airborne opponent).

4) No reversal. The closest thing he has is Daifunka and he needs to reversal a really slow move for that to connect. He's so easy to pressure it's downright silly.

5) Relies on nails for everything, but only has twelve. Imagine if Jin only had 12 freezes and you'll be on the right track. Oh, and his FBs consume 3 freezes.

6) Strong mixup, but extremely reliant on them. Characters who can "get out of mixup free" like Ragna or Jin (either with reversal or just straight-up outprioritizing him) makes his pressure game high risk, low reward.

7) Terrible priority and range. It's what happens when you're the unarmed fighter in a game where everyone has a weapon, but none of his attack hitboxes extend very far from his own body. That means he'll get stuffed or trade on quite a few things, and he'll even get hit by crap like trying to j.4C an Inferno Divider.

So yeah, he's not really that solid at all, he just confuses people since he's not someone people play a lot, plus he's fast and he's got the mixup game, which you might not know how to counter right off the bat. A lot of his matchups are crap for stupid reasons (he can't get through Jin's j.B at all, period, etc.) and even his "good" matchups require a lot of effort to play right.

[Skye]

I have a seriously hard time understanding why Jin vs. Carl is in Jin's favor while Arakune vs. Carl is even. Can anyone explain? I'm under the impression that Arakune's damage and space control are above Jin's plus he can play keep away against Carl all day.

Arakune relies on projectiles and aerial to get in, his pressure game is trash precurse, and Carl can easily prevent such effort easily, for one, Nirvana eats clouds when active, Carl (Nirvana included) has like 3 antiairs or attacks that hit very high, 2 of them are fast and one is loop tiem! Arakune's basic attacks have huge holes in them, some aren't worth using should you be taking the character seriously. Jin has a plethora of great basic attacks and options for every situation--unlike Arakune, who's options precurse are but an illusion.

Jin has excellent cross ups and high priority attacks up and down and far better mixups than what Arakune has.

The thing is, once Arakune gets curse in, it's gonna be an asswhoop'n.

Hard.

Jin on the other hand can just commence the asswhoop'n without requiring any sort of prerequisite.

BANG BANG BANG BANG!!!

Thanks for the info, I seriously need Bang practice, I think he requires more patience to fight than IB master playing Tager.

[Effay]

I'll have you know that if you should prevent getting cursed, you have a sharp advantage, if you're fighting stupid Arakune's, first thing you should do (as well as the second and so forth) is Infernal Divider (D preferably), the smart ones.....Throw out a test 6A of wait and block so you can punish later.

Arakune has like 2 getup options (one of them most of us don't even use, and the other requires 50 heat), lock his ass down.

If you are cursed, persevere, everyone else does.

I'm assuming those are IB into 5A > 6B and laser super, respectively?