Spirit Juice Posted November 8, 2009 Posted November 8, 2009 Thanks to kro for explaining a bunch of stuff I was far too lazy to type. Keikaku doori!
Kuuhaku Posted November 8, 2009 Posted November 8, 2009 But what smart person would do that full screen while the SparkBolt gauge is full? On that note, if they trying to zone full screen, would Voltic Charge east basically most of her crap and then give him more meter to work with. If the Rachel is too dumb to be in his face and give him no chance at anything, this tactic sounds like it'll work wonders. No. But full spark bolt meter makes rushing in risky too unless you happen to be really good at blocking on reaction. And if you mess up and he has 50% heat you'll be looking at spark bolt 720 or back dash 720. Oh, and Tager can buffer a 720 during block strings... so if you leave a hole open anywhere you're fucked. The problem with Voltic Charge is the same problem with Sledge well... one of the same problem with sledge. Voltic Charge is invincible, but has recovery frames that are an easy CH (where Sledge can be CHed during recovery and start up). In fact, any time I see a Tager back up and charge, if he needs more than one charge to get the spark bolt, I'll just run up and get a free 6B CH.
Skye Posted November 8, 2009 Posted November 8, 2009 No. But full spark bolt meter makes rushing in risky too unless you happen to be really good at blocking on reaction. And if you mess up and he has 50% heat you'll be looking at spark bolt 720 or back dash 720. Oh, and Tager can buffer a 720 during block strings... so if you leave a hole open anywhere you're fucked. The problem with Voltic Charge is the same problem with Sledge well... one of the same problem with sledge. Voltic Charge is invincible, but has recovery frames that are an easy CH (where Sledge can be CHed during recovery and start up). In fact, any time I see a Tager back up and charge, if he needs more than one charge to get the spark bolt, I'll just run up and get a free 6B CH. My best friend mains Tager, I know what he can do, and you are far better off staying in his face when the Spark Bolt gauge is full, staying a range trying to zone, isn't much safer, if you have holes in your strings, you should know of them and back off accordingly, not persist applying faulty pressure. Spark Bolt > 720 is a tech trap, not a combo, you can escape that easy, back dash 720 is a different story and it's very easy to get by if you're careful, which you should be fighting Tager up close. Magna Tech Wheel is a far greater threat, it actually combos from Spark Bolt, and can be just as good as a reversal--if not better than a 720. Voltic Charge does hold some weak points but it's not as heavy as Sledge, unlike Sledge, Tager can stop the charge when he sees the slightest evidence of you charging in, plus he can buffer a 720 during, so if you're not careful, he'll get you either way, and it's duration is invincible from everything but low physical attacks. I've seen Tagers bait an approach with Voltic Charge, quite because he can end it and turn your plan on itself whenever he pleases. It's still unsafe, but nowhere near as unsafe as Sledge. Plus he can just Voltic Charge everytime you throw a labila at him, it'll hit him ~no damage~ release, he gets more meter and gets by your weakest form of zoning. You'll have to rush him down, if you know your string and the risk that they carry, you'll still have the advantage over a Tager whose mashing back dash hoping for a hole, just don't be stupid.
Kuuhaku Posted November 8, 2009 Posted November 8, 2009 But that's what pumpkin is for really... not many Rachel will full screen lobelia without pumpkin. At the release, even if he avoids the lobelia, there's the follow up with Sword Iris/BBL and also wind + pumpkin.
dragontamer Posted November 8, 2009 Posted November 8, 2009 Psychic sledge rapes Drive. when its being initiated, a psychic A sledge can beat quite a bit and put you in a position you dont want to be in. But there is also the posibility of doing 5.6kish off of 214A which beats sledges. The only thing you should be using 5C for is for Jumpcancels and frame trapping to score that 4.5k and even then it would be better to do 5B 2C on a blocking person if they are going to attempt to break out. So just jumpcancels, its not terribly useful. And are you just randomly 2Cing? because i dont see how that could ever be a problem unless tager has projectile invin on startup of sledge and you use it in a frame trap. But even then those arent mixups. All in all, stick to 5A Dragon, can you find out what point tager has projectile invin at? Oh shit, you're psychic. Thats why you beat me. Sledge is projectile invincible on frame 1. Tager can sledge between 5B -> 5C. Of course, if Tager keeps doing that, Noel can just go 5B -> 6B -> 3C -> lol 22C loop.
SuperKawaiiDesu Posted November 9, 2009 Posted November 9, 2009 Oh shit, you're psychic. Thats why you beat me. Sledge is projectile invincible on frame 1. Tager can sledge between 5B -> 5C. Of course, if Tager keeps doing that, Noel can just go 5B -> 6B -> 3C -> lol 22C loop. I would rather combo from 214A than attempt an overhead. Can you get A sledged out of 5B 6B? if not, then the overhead is a much safer thing to do. Then again there is a high chance that youre gonna get 360A'd by a tager, or even 720'd. 214A beats that. :3 Make them wary of the 214A and go for overheads, thats probably the best way to do it.
Heroic_Legacy Posted November 9, 2009 Posted November 9, 2009 I noticed you've been throwing that move in our fights recently. I like it. I dislike having to deal with it, because I'm not used to seeing it so punishing it is lol at the moment. I was playing some Noel's in ranked today and got annoyed because everytime I psychic sledged, I went right through the invincibility frames and ate a CH D something. Raged hard. Noel is so unfair. v.v
ShinsoBEAM Posted November 9, 2009 Posted November 9, 2009 I would rather combo from 214A than attempt an overhead. Can you get A sledged out of 5B 6B? if not, then the overhead is a much safer thing to do. Then again there is a high chance that youre gonna get 360A'd by a tager, or even 720'd. 214A beats that. :3 Make them wary of the 214A and go for overheads, thats probably the best way to do it. I already block everything low noels overheads are slow enough to react. But on screen during your Drive mode I standing block alot to bait easy low blocks. It works better than it should and it wouldn't work against someone who has played me alot but still. Also I hate noel cause her combos last so long its like litchi all over again.
Konton Posted November 9, 2009 Posted November 9, 2009 you played rachel on me. I know. I just started using her so I suck. ha
SuperKawaiiDesu Posted November 9, 2009 Posted November 9, 2009 I already block everything low noels overheads are slow enough to react. But on screen during your Drive mode I standing block alot to bait easy low blocks. It works better than it should and it wouldn't work against someone who has played me alot but still. Also I hate noel cause her combos last so long its like litchi all over again. Doesnt matter, this is talking about situations in which only instant use of 360's or Sledges can beat things. 5B 6B would hit backdash right? LOL Poor tager has like 0 options. anyways 5A 6A still makes tager noel's bitch. Even if you can block high or low, doesnt matter, its a different scenario. for example, ill do 5A on you blocking till it hits. if you backdash and i whiff, ill 6A to hit you. If you see me trying to frame trap you, you will try to sledge as it beats frame traps. But i can 214A, which will make you reconsider sledging. if you try to 360 or 720 me during the 5A's, you are in blockstun for the 5B letting me 214A. SO it would go 5A 5B 214A or 5A 5B 2C for a frame trap into further mixups (2D, Continue Pressure, 214A, 3C, whatever floats your boat) Your best bet is to backdash imo. 214A does NOT beat backdash. But as dragon posted, if you become weary of all of this stuff, you will try to backdash, in which case you can get 6B'd which i doubt has very many follow ups since its going to hit air. IMO do a 2D if you expect backdash, its wins for big damage. Blocking works too, but its opens you up into mixups. So safe options are backdash and block. so lets break it down 5Axn > 5B 214A beats all offensive options except for Jabs 3C loses to sledge, its pretty pointless to use unless you got some crazy mind reading shit going on. Beats jabs or if you REALLY wanna do that 6K. 2D beats Throws and Jabs as well as backdash, but loses to sledge. 236A gives LOTS of blockstun for more goodness, beats throws if you get barrier'd out of range, Hits backdash. 2C allows a frame trap if your opponent tries to jab out or throw out, you score a CH yay. into 5D 6C combos. This is all trying to counter 5A spam. :D
ShinsoBEAM Posted November 9, 2009 Posted November 9, 2009 lets see if tager keeps blocking, cause I don't try to punish then. 214A, you can 2C on reaction to CH for 5-6k damage combo. 3C, lol IB, 5A,2A, crouch loop, or alternatively 720 2D puts you in drive mode after you do your 1 good physical hit or 1 jumping non finisher attacks its now a mindgame fight. 236A, uhhhh A sledge A toss, 720 its free if they see it but yeah it does own backdash. 2C, well fuck that move, but still block it and see what they do. Im a fairly patient player and normally will not try to poke out at the first opporunity and will instead wait for you to fuck up, or to at least get a hang for your game and tendancyes before giving you the opporunity to do so, and if their is one thing tager can do well its block.
SuperKawaiiDesu Posted November 9, 2009 Posted November 9, 2009 lets see if tager keeps blocking, cause I don't try to punish then. 214A, you can 2C on reaction to CH for 5-6k damage combo. 3C, lol IB, 5A,2A, crouch loop, or alternatively 720 2D puts you in drive mode after you do your 1 good physical hit or 1 jumping non finisher attacks its now a mindgame fight. 236A, uhhhh A sledge A toss, 720 its free if they see it but yeah it does own backdash. 2C, well fuck that move, but still block it and see what they do. Im a fairly patient player and normally will not try to poke out at the first opporunity and will instead wait for you to fuck up, or to at least get a hang for your game and tendancyes before giving you the opporunity to do so, and if their is one thing tager can do well its block. once again, this stuff cant happen because im saying 5A pressure into 5B if they just block, you will keep 5A pressuring. If they backdash as you get close and 5A whiffs, you will eat 6A. 5B is good for spacing to let you rush in for 5A. If they start to attempt to retaliate, you have options. The only options i really suggest are 214A for high risk high reward and 2D > 28D /4D5B/ 214D. If you attempt to sledge me during the blockstring, you will beat out frame traps. There is no reacting to be done other than 236A'ing an optic barrel if you choose not to backdash. If all youre doing is blocking, you will get pressured until you try to do something, which will be either Backdash, 360A, or Sledge. Backdashing during the pressure will get you hit if they keep dashing in. if they keep doing 5A 5B 2C, what are you going to try to do? you have 2 choices. Sledge, or Backdash. you can get barreled out of backdash, or you can block and counter it on reaction. I dont suggest using it unless you feel like a prick. 214A will beat sledge, but not backdashes. So its a toss up all the time. Does the tager want to risk eating a 214A by trying to sledge? or will he keep blocking the string and backdash out? If you keep blocking, the noel should dash in again. If you eat the first 5A blocking, youll stay blocking. If you dodge it with backdash, youll eat 6A. If you sledge, you will eat 5A as well. if the noel does 214, it will counter your sledge attempt to beat the frame trap. If you keep taking the frame trap up the ass, you will be blocking. ALOT. Pressure is not good.
ShinsoBEAM Posted November 9, 2009 Posted November 9, 2009 Yeah I know that you can just keep doing 5A,5B,2C but are you seriously saying you will punish sledge/backdash/360 on reaction to me doing them, I mean yes the match is not good for tager 6-4 I agree with that just the way you were wording it made it seem like we were fighting nu or rachel or something. Also if you start getting to predictable such as just doing 5A,5B,2C don't underestimate the power of barrier IB the pushback is immense, and because its an IB we don't have the high blockstun.
Konton Posted November 9, 2009 Posted November 9, 2009 Getting in 5a range is way more difficult than you guys are letting on.
dragontamer Posted November 9, 2009 Posted November 9, 2009 I would rather combo from 214A than attempt an overhead. Can you get A sledged out of 5B 6B? if not, then the overhead is a much safer thing to do. Then again there is a high chance that youre gonna get 360A'd by a tager, or even 720'd. 214A beats that. :3 Make them wary of the 214A and go for overheads, thats probably the best way to do it. Nope. 5B -> 6B is only a 13 frame hole. Even if he instant-blocks, the A Sledge won't come out in time. And if you are doing 5B from 360A or 720C range, you're doing it wrong. 5B outranges both 360A and 720C. (at least, if you whiff it, you aren't in range during the recovery) When you are doing 5A spam, sure, you worry about that grab, but zone Tager with 5B (when he's on the ground) and 6A (when he jumps) and you should be pretty good overall. Getting in 5a range is way more difficult than you guys are letting on. I agree. 5B spam is the way to victory vs Tager. 5B CH 3C goodness right there.
Konton Posted November 9, 2009 Posted November 9, 2009 I feel like 6a gets beaten out by allot of Tager's arial attacks.
ShinsoBEAM Posted November 9, 2009 Posted November 9, 2009 it really doesn't the only move that I could see working is j.D, and sometimes you can mixup j.B and j.2C to make them mistime the 6A but otherwise it wins clean. Nope. 5B -> 6B is only a 13 frame hole. Even if he instant-blocks, the A Sledge won't come out in time. And if you are doing 5B from 360A or 720C range, you're doing it wrong. 5B outranges both 360A and 720C. (at least, if you whiff it, you aren't in range during the recovery) When you are doing 5A spam, sure, you worry about that grab, but zone Tager with 5B (when he's on the ground) and 6A (when he jumps) and you should be pretty good overall. I agree. 5B spam is the way to victory vs Tager. 5B CH 3C goodness right there. I have a really hard time beliving 5B outranges 720, the range on that move is stupid.
SuperKawaiiDesu Posted November 9, 2009 Posted November 9, 2009 Nope. 5B -> 6B is only a 13 frame hole. Even if he instant-blocks, the A Sledge won't come out in time. And if you are doing 5B from 360A or 720C range, you're doing it wrong. 5B outranges both 360A and 720C. (at least, if you whiff it, you aren't in range during the recovery) When you are doing 5A spam, sure, you worry about that grab, but zone Tager with 5B (when he's on the ground) and 6A (when he jumps) and you should be pretty good overall. I agree. 5B spam is the way to victory vs Tager. 5B CH 3C goodness right there. 6B is the way to go. 6B 22C works on backdash hit.
dragontamer Posted November 9, 2009 Posted November 9, 2009 I feel like 6a gets beaten out by allot of Tager's arial attacks. It is invulnerable to all of Tager's aerials. How can it NOT beat all of Tager's aerial attacks? I have a really hard time beliving 5B outranges 720, the range on that move is stupid. But if you don't believe me on Noel's 5B, then just go into training mode. Do Noel's 5B from max range to see the length, then have Tager to a 5B -> 720C. Obviously, without magnetism, because magnetism changes everything. 6B is the way to go. 6B 22C works on backdash hit. 6D on backdash. Lol. (Sarcasm btw, but it kinda works)
Konton Posted November 9, 2009 Posted November 9, 2009 It is invulnerable to all of Tager's aerials. How can it NOT beat all of Tager's aerial attacks? idk I was playing Axis and he just seemed to out prioritize it every time and came at me from the air in odd angles. I had to rely on meeting him in air to air to stop it.
ShinsoBEAM Posted November 9, 2009 Posted November 9, 2009 idk I was playing Axis and he just seemed to out prioritize it every time and came at me from the air in odd angles. I had to rely on meeting him in air to air to stop it. Nahh he is just baiting early or late 6As I have done it before, if you play tagers that do this a bit more you'll start 6Aing the crap out of them.
A.X.I.S. Posted November 10, 2009 Posted November 10, 2009 idk I was playing Axis and he just seemed to out prioritize it every time and came at me from the air in odd angles. I had to rely on meeting him in air to air to stop it. i can bait anti air's and punish it easy, i'm really dangerous in the air seeing how i can just pop noel if she tries to come at me from the air and i can land short the distance of 6A or just bait the 6C, hell i can just land right infront of you and do 720, not hard to do that, i just cross you up too. i also won't let you get close enough to spam 5A if you noticed, i know what you can do and i got tricks to keep you from doing it, locking you into fighting 1 certain way and punishing you, being tager means being smarter than your opponent and using whatever resources you have to strip your opponent of their tools and beat them to death, simply put i knew noels anti air game so i just came at you in a way that makes 6A harder to hit, hell i crossed you up if it makes it harder for you to use it. damn i need a ps3 so i can play SKD.
Skye Posted November 10, 2009 Posted November 10, 2009 damn i need a ps3 so i can play SKD. Me too, I need a Noel player to vent on, I swear there isn't a heterosexual man alive who hates Noel as much as I do, bitch made me break my mic.
Konton Posted November 10, 2009 Posted November 10, 2009 Me too, I need a Noel player to vent on, I swear there isn't a heterosexual man alive who hates Noel as much as I do, bitch made me break my mic. Don't worry! One day I'll be good too.
Heroic_Legacy Posted November 10, 2009 Posted November 10, 2009 i can bait anti air's and punish it easy, i'm really dangerous in the air seeing how i can just pop noel if she tries to come at me from the air and i can land short the distance of 6A or just bait the 6C, hell i can just land right infront of you and do 720, not hard to do that, i just cross you up too. i also won't let you get close enough to spam 5A if you noticed, i know what you can do and i got tricks to keep you from doing it, locking you into fighting 1 certain way and punishing you, being tager means being smarter than your opponent and using whatever resources you have to strip your opponent of their tools and beat them to death, simply put i knew noels anti air game so i just came at you in a way that makes 6A harder to hit, hell i crossed you up if it makes it harder for you to use it. damn i need a ps3 so i can play SKD. Bait anti airs? Punish anti airs? Land in front 720? Crossup? What are you smoking? Does Tager have a magic carpet that can put his oversized metallic ass anywhere? You jump, your opponent waits, AAs you. In Noel's case, Double AA. 6A canceles into 6C I believe. Land in front? What, is Noel not going to try and AA you? This isn't KoF where you can hop. Goddamn I wish it was. Punish anti airs from the air? Funny. Unless Tager has the Gold Potemkin Supers, I doubt that happens. Crossup, crossing yourself up maybe. Noel can just 28D with auto correction and ouch CH you go goodbye say hello to 22C. Using Tager means being smarter yes, but what happens when the opponent (everyone else in the game) has more tools than you do? Make yours effective? What if their tools are more effective than your tools? You're talking as if Tager has a billion options from the air. And the only good option Tager has in this matchup is Barrier block.
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