[CS1] Carl Clover Tactical Discussion/Questions/Help

[Marionette Pwii]

Neat. Right now I really only use Anima on people blocking my sandwich strings. Seems to work pretty well.

yeah thats great now go in the kitchen and make me a sandwich because I suck at making them

[Akiro]

If this is a new "Claploop" I hope people don't go back to just using it and not creating new/unique combos .

[Adelheid]

No, there's always reversal options and ground rolls to deal with setups into this from air combos, and done from the ground you can always just not tech Con Anima, meaning whatever combo goes on from their must be an air combo. So against an opponent that is playing at a strong level, you can't loop this. Doesn't mean it's not strong as sin though. [21:00:39] <DarkRagna> oh you know what it is... [21:00:44] <DarkRagna> you might have to block backwards from that setup [21:00:58] <DarkRagna> just like you have to air DP backwards for Ragna off some of the old throw loop setups [21:01:18] <DarkRagna> that's my best guess [21:02:07] <Stark> It's possible [21:02:08] <DarkRagna> since in the vid it shows him facing backwards during the throw tech [21:02:18] <DarkRagna> would be a really messed up mixup if that's true [21:02:19] <Stark> Hmm, I'll bring that up in the Carl forums [21:02:29] <DarkRagna> since you could just hit slightly later and they'd have to block the correct way probably Something to keep in mind when testing this, guys. Logically, he's probably right. If it is, this answers the "why 5a" question because the answer to that is because it's fast and the opponent can't use the timing for when they see you use it to know which way to block.

[Marionette Pwii]

JUST WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?!PROVE HIM WRONG!THROW HIS LOGIC TO THE CURB AND DO THE IMPOSSIBLE!yeah gurren lagann reference wutevs

[Adelheid]

Okay fine I proved him wrong It's definitely unblockable. Hurray. Doesn't even require any sense of timing, can just mash out the 5A until it hits

[Dacidbro]

It's strong enough to keep you in A tier, but this isn't particularly new in Japan It's infinitely avoidable in most theoretical situations, that throw has such a bitch of a start up time Unless I'm wrong Zong, use this against me and I'll try to show ways it won't work. (not that I have any in mind yet, I just figure I can help the test running)

[Adelheid]

Well, there's a 1-frame gap between 2A/5A/2A on IB, so if you have a reversal you can escape there. If you don't, those to 5B has a 4-frame gap on IB, but that's dangerous because it could be another 2A/5A as a frame trap. The 5B to 6B gatling is another frame trap on IB, and from there you've been hit. Faultless will not get you out if it is set up right. Faultless pushes too far away for a full string of 2A/5A/2A/5A but it also means that you can safely go to 5B 6B sooner thanks to not needing to worry about frame trapping the opponent during the weakest part of the string since hey, they used faultless, they can't get out regardless... And 5B/6B is of course always going to work. So the short of it is: Like all of Carl's guardstrings, you can IB and reversal out at literally any point. But if you're not a character that can do that, then it is inescapable. However, setting it up seems to require you do it out of Rhapsody of Memories or a well-spaced Volante, ideally as oki; other Ada moves have too much recovery. Though, you can also do solo Carl into it from certain spacings. But that's shaky. Other ways to get into it do exist but they require long blockstrings to let Ada recover, and thus in general you can faultless out of them or they have long gaps to get out after a good IB.

[Kyle]

What are you talking about?!? why not just end a ground loop w/ 63214D and repeat. Also, who is DarkRagna?

[ZONG_one]

What are you talking about?!?

why not just end a ground loop w/ 63214D and repeat.

Also, who is DarkRagna?

Lol.

Thank you, I wanted to ask that.

All three of those questions, actually.

[Dacidbro]

I'm gonna be honest, as a character with bad reversals, I'd probably just let this shit hit me. It's a free out of Carl's grounded resets.

[ZONG_one]

I'm gonna be honest, as a character with bad reversals, I'd probably just let this shit hit me. It's a free out of Carl's grounded resets.

Exactly.

You'll just eat 3.5k.

That's nothing to Bang.

Actually, I'm sure I can turn Anima into volleyball 2D loop with oki.

[Adelheid]

What are you talking about?!?

Frame data. Testing on how to make this stuff go well.

why not just end a ground loop w/ 63214D and repeat.

Because the opponent can simply not tech and get hit by the Con Anima, thereby taking the unprorated damage but otherwise getting out since they can tech easily from there thanks to all the hits of the ground loop that you did that are still part of the combo. Unfortunately Anima isn't untechable to the ground, so. Much stronger to do it out of block.

Also, who is DarkRagna?

Veteru.

[Prophet]

Exactly.

You'll just eat 3.5k.

That's nothing to Bang.

Actually, I'm sure I can turn Anima into volleyball 2D loop with oki.

I was thinking if they don't tech, would you be able to do 236B and hit them with 2C or something? Pardon my unfamiliarity with CS.

[ZONG_one]

I was thinking if they don't tech, would you be able to do 236B and hit them with 2C or something? Pardon my unfamiliarity with CS.

Probably 236B (eventhough it doesn't matter as long as you get over there.)

j.2C alle-can > j.B > j.C > clap, etc.

Startup to 4k Dio combo.

[Kyle]

Ahhh, THX Stark. Vet~ is great. I'll gladly take his input. =) Sucks for the Purple throw anima. There's got to be a way to force green throw tho... i mean. It is a MEATY command throw... 6C leaves in stagger. How about forcing a combo reset. like J.B, J.A whiff, anima... I need training mode so bad... =/

[Dacidbro]

It isn't classified as cmnd grab, because you can green tech it. While it is of course an input grab, it has all the properties of a normal one, it seems. And Zong, I'd take 4k+oki over being stuck grounded any day. Truthfully. Carl's oki isn't great if you decline to Neutral Tech every time.

[ZONG_one]

It isn't classified as cmnd grab, because you can green tech it. While it is of course an input grab, it has all the properties of a normal one, it seems.

And Zong, I'd take 4k+oki over being stuck grounded any day. Truthfully. Carl's oki isn't great if you decline to Neutral Tech every time.

Actually, you're just used to me trying 2D on wake up.

3D will stuff any tech roll.

[ZONG_one]

Why don't you do that then e-e

Because I have to sand bag you during the week, and play right in the tournaments.

Also, sometimes 3C lifts otg, so I can't get my reset to standing again. And I like 2D's proration. I obviously heavily favor 2B/3C > 2D.

EDIT- no more posts in here. Kyle has a hard time trying to clean stuff up.

He's very organized, compared to other mods.

[Mascarpone]

Ahhh, THX Stark.

Vet~ is great. I'll gladly take his input. =)

Sucks for the Purple throw anima. There's got to be a way to force green throw tho... i mean. It is a MEATY command throw... 6C leaves in stagger.

How about forcing a combo reset. like J.B, J.A whiff, anima...

I need training mode so bad... =/

I do not see the point of forcing green throw in this particular scenario since the the throw break leads into an unblockable reset. If anything you'd want them to keep trying to throw break would you not..? Or did i miss something about the properties of a purple Vs. green throw in relation to proration / untechable time?

[ZONG_one]

I do not see the point of forcing green throw in this particular scenario since the the throw break leads into an unblockable reset. If anything you'd want them to keep trying to throw break would you not..?

Because they're not going to tech.

Green throw means start of a fresh combo, meaning they can't tech out of your air combo in a random spot.

Pink throw means you'll probably get Allecan > j.B and whiff j.C or something.

EDIT- I know I didn't use it in tourney. Just trollin'. :]

[Dacidbro]

pink throw on block is still fresh o-o

[ZONG_one]

pink throw on block is still fresh o-o

It black beats your combo. I think untech time is decreased.

[Dacidbro]

Oh, I didn't know black beat did that O-o Is there a source for that, I'd like to see how much

[ZONG_one]

Oh, I didn't know black beat did that

O-o

Is there a source for that, I'd like to see how much

Lol, you would have to find it. But black beat combos definitely decrease untech time, so I figure it works the same for techable throws mid combo.

[Kyle]

-Overlord Kyle Strikes-

i will spell it out for the few not on the same page as ZONG, Stark & Myself.

while opponent breaks Con Anima, they are vulnerable to an attack = Unblockable.

We combo into Con anima, throw is purple, opponent breaks throw, we hit them vulnerable & repeat.

Problem is scenario #2.

We combo into Con Anima, throw is purple, opponent DOES-NOT breaks throw, Con Anima is NOT completely untechable, Carl can not follow up and opponent has escaped set-up. The only advantage to this scenario is teh unprorated Dmg from Con anima. thsi is actually more than two Cantata's. 1500

Ideally, we combo opponent, as soon as combo ends Con Anima catches them green.

-They break throw, we rest into itself for ~3K DMG.

-They Don't break throw, we follow up with ~4.5K DMG & Oki.

This is great because it would significantly increase our DMG output on grounded combos.

Ground loop until they DON'T throw break, than add ~4.5K DMG on top.