[CS1] Iron Tager Complete Guide

[Manta]

Well that's probably intentional, otherwise a game winning strategy would be to just GF loop them until they time out or do something where you can just combo them anyway... back into GF loop.

[Mike Z]

So, can you guys explain exactly what the difference is between a held Gadget Finger and a non held?

Non-held = 22D, held = 22[D]. Keeps the move out, and active, longer. Non-held only has 3(ish) active frames, but the pull is extremely strong, so if the opponent backdashes they will end up right next to you again. Held is active so that if they do something the GF can grab (jump, backdash, etc) it will do so.

And yes, you can only do it once - combo to GF, another GF. The 2nd GF is a new "combo", and they weren't in OTG state during it, so you can't do a 3rd.

Aside from being more magnetism, it means that opponents who know what they're doing can't do a lot of the easy escapes from the 1st GF, and if they get caught by the 2nd one they are much more likely to attempt a risky escape afterward, since they know they can. It'll also force people to do riskier escapes from the first GF.

Basically another option, except this one shuts down a lot of the mindless things that beat his former options. Making your opponent think is always a good thing.

[Leo7]

Okay, so iOryan just posted a video of GF, then another GF.

I didn't know that, so I did some testing, and this completely changes some matchups!

- A non-held GF will catch most character's jumps (not Lambda, aww) before they can attack you. It eliminates Hakumen using tk.Firefly to beat your mixup, and it eliminates Arakune jumping out, forcing him to backdash.

- Held slightly it will catch any airborne backdashes (notably Jin, Litchi before she can do the 2nd part, and Carl back and fwd dash before he can Allegretto). It also catches lots of special moves, like Gauntlet Hades, but he's just going to DP you anyway.

- Non-held, it will bring other backdashes close enough that you can punish them with held 360B (Lambda, Bang, Arakune). This is big news: it stops Lambda from reflexively mashing backdash because you can recover in time to block her Gravity Well if she did that instead, and since you just got rid of Arakune's jump it forces him to actually think.

- Non-held, it also allows you to buffer a 720 and recover quickly enough to grab people who decided to block for that split second, or anybody who backdashed, but it also allows you to confirm that you want to 720 and not waste it.

(O.o)

Doesn't this mean Arakune is fucked once he's Gadget Finger'd? Since a non-held Gadget Finger seems to punish all his escape options aside from edit: just attacking (wth was I thinking earlier).

Edit: Didn't read the second post. K you can only do it twice. Still good for mindgames I guess.

Regardless, this is awesome. No more tk.Hotaru makes me really happy.

Also, I'm not sure if people know this but a held 360B done immediately after Gadget will just straight up catch Bang out of his backdash.

[Edalborez]

Not conclusive but just ~ 20 minutes of dicking around in training mode. Tested just by holding up while Tager(training dummy macro) did 3C>2xGadget, except where otherwise noted. I can't really describe what I mean by timing difficulty but just testing non-held 22D on the following (I don't have Makoto, sorry):

EDIT: I should say the following are what CAUGHT a jump attempt.

Easy (input ASAP):

-Jin Rachel Carl(fwd hop) Tao Haku

Medium (had to delay very slightly):

-Arakune Litchi

Hard? (timing on both was longer delay, Ragna longest)

-Hazama Ragna

Couldnt do it on:

-Bang Tager Noel Tsubaki Lambda Mu

Again not very conclusive on my part just testing empty jumps but it's somewhere to start I guess. Hope I was of help.

EDIT 2: There a pattern here as far as jump startup frames for who is/n't caught?

[iOryan]

Not conclusive but just ~ 20 minutes of dicking around in training mode. Tested just by holding up while Tager did 3C>2xGadget, except where otherwise noted. I can't really describe what I mean by timing difficulty but just testing non-held 22D on the following (I don't have Makoto, sorry):

Easy (input ASAP):

-Jin Rachel Carl(fwd hop) Tao Haku

Medium (had to delay very slightly):

-Arakune Litchi

Hard? (timing on both was longer delay, Ragna longest)

-Hazama Ragna

Couldnt do it on:

-Bang Tager Noel Tsubaki Lambda Mu

Again not very conclusive on my part just testing empty jumps but it's somewhere to start I guess. Hope I was of help.

I've been testing by recording the input for doubleGF via Training Dummy recording. That way you can test jumps, back dashes and special moves and switch to different characters while keeping that exact same timing.

On a side note, when i was testing earlier im like 60% sure I doubleGF'd a deathsbite (i know i know, ragna will DP but its something to look into if you can doubleGF a grounded move).

edit: I've been doing this online just to test timing and reactions. I've had most success with [nonheld] doubleGF > 360B. It works wonders against those arakune/lambda backdashers.

[Astaroth136]

I double GF'ed a Mu that tried to backdash earlier. It was great.

I just need to practice the timing on it though. Someone should make a video that shows it off on different characters. I would, but the quality would be bad...

[iOryan]

I double GF'ed a Mu that tried to backdash earlier. It was great.

I just need to practice the timing on it though. Someone should make a video that shows it off on different characters. I would, but the quality would be bad...

I would but im low on time right now. If no one does it in the next few weeks - I'll do my best to pull it off.

--------------

Possibly stupid question:

Would doubleGF into a fresh rapid combo be viable? Or would horrible proration suck that option up? (I would test it but im about to head out for the night)

Side note:

So who's going to be Mr Gimmick and pull off a doubleGF to Rapid AC Whiff reset in-game?

[Mike Z]

2nd GF RC to combo can get you around 2K without blowing the other 50%. Best damage seems to be GF RC AC, etc, EGadget. Starting with other hits (like 5C->6A->2C xx AC, or 6A->2C) lowers the damage.

Due to GF's proration points, lot of the time you don't get to followup a 2nd AC with another Gadget, and you want to make sure you can do that.

[Isorropia]

double GF seems quite useful against people who's first instinct is to escape, eg lambda arakune mu, but I don't get how it will influence the matches where people have easy get-out options. What I mean is, people are saying 'no more tk hotaru' for hakumen, but can't he just uh....try to tk hotaru every time mindlessly? All landing the second GF does is add extra magnetism, or go into gold burst level damage if you RC it. After the 2nd one you can't GF again, and he just...does a tk hotaru again? (Assuming that he is aware of how the setup works. If he hasn't seen it before he might panic and try something different, sure, but if he knows about it, it just...doesn't actually seem threatening)

[Heroic_Legacy]

Double Gadget messes Noel up good. 2D gets gadgeted, 4D gets pulled back into range, Backdash gets pulled back into range, jump gets gadgeted, Reversal super however does not.

[dragontamer]

Double Gadget messes Noel up good. 2D gets gadgeted, 4D gets pulled back into range, Backdash gets pulled back into range, jump gets gadgeted, Reversal super however does not.

2D gets screwed by Tager's 5A and Atomic Collider, 4D can get 360A. 5A/Atomic beat jump.

The only thing new seems to be punishing a Backdash with a whiff confirmed Gadget Finger -> 720C / 360B. I don't think backdash was a good option anyway because 360A could be held down. It may have gotten worse for Noel, but it never was good in the first place. If you get Gadget Fingered by Tager, you're pretty much in a 50/50 for the round.

BTW: Gadget Finger doesn't do any damage, right? So its not like getting caught in the 2nd Gadget Finger gives much aside from extra magnetism. It probably psychs out the opponent... I think the real benefit here is not in catching jumpers, but beating backdashers when you whiff the 2nd Gadget Finger.

[Heroic_Legacy]

But the thing I see is that a Noel that gets hit by this realizes that they have no way out and they start blocking. Which makes my life easier in the long run.

[dragontamer]

But the thing I see is that a Noel that gets hit by this realizes that they have no way out and they start blocking. Which makes my life easier in the long run.

Well... my point is that we never had an out to begin with

[Heroic_Legacy]

But it makes the matchup in our favor even more! Because at first you thought you had no easy out, and no you have no out anyway!

So Tager gets free busters all day.

Pathological Science at it's best.

[dragontamer]

But it makes the matchup in our favor even more! Because at first you thought you had no easy out, and no you have no out anyway!

So Tager gets free busters all day.

Pathological Science at it's best.

Bullshit. You only get 3 free busters per match. After that, Noel is dead. So no more free busters for you.

[A.X.I.S.]

this only solidify's the 6-4 rating, it really can't get worse unless tager gets his damage back or noel loses something else like same move prorate on 6C..that will make noels feel fucked in so many ways.

[Nobus3r1]

this only solidify's the 6-4 rating, it really can't get worse unless tager gets his damage back or noel loses something else like same move prorate on 6C..that will make noels feel fucked in so many ways.

Also on the Noel matchup I'm almost positive I 6Bed her super. As in we clashed and it went away.

[Osuna]

Just a few more thoughts. It beats back dashes that were formerly unbeatable and if nothing else the second gadget gets you another look at one of their reactions in gadget finger to further education your next one.

Also, getting 2k for 50 meter at the end of a combo ain't bad. I know it seems counter intuitive, but if I spent that meter mid combo instead I'd be getting like maybe 1k out of it and wouldn't get much meter back. And it resets your double gadget. In match ups where it catches the backdash and the jump if you hold it you now have an option twice as safe as collider or 6A was and we've all committed to those before.

So yeah collider beat noel's 2D and other options beat backdash. But collider didn't beat backdash. and 360 didn't beat jump. in fact if you did those she either got away or maybe even comboed you for up to 5.5K. In my opinion it improves the risk reward in gadget finger in several match ups quite a bit because it catches jumps. If it Just caught back dashes then we have a slightly better punish for backdashes.

It also, and I think this is perhaps the most important feature, give incentive to not mindlessly escape gadget and go for pokes which lose to 360B which as you all may recall is the one with Soviet Damage. Which also resets the double gadget option.

TL;DR double gadget combines options which statistically makes mix up out of more effective and it gives meterless ways to punish long backdashes.

[Aleri_XV]

What exactly are you guys talking about when you say Double Gadget, I mean are you talking about a specific setup or just any knockdown into GF, knockdown 2nd GF?

[Manta]

You can Gadget finger someone who is falling from being dropped by gadget finger. Only once though.

[iOryan]

What exactly are you guys talking about when you say Double Gadget, I mean are you talking about a specific setup or just any knockdown into GF, knockdown 2nd GF?

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?7785-Iron-Tager-Complete-Guide-%28CS%29&p=714420&viewfull=1#post714420

[Tae Seong Kim]

What exactly are you guys talking about when you say Double Gadget, I mean are you talking about a specific setup or just any knockdown into GF, knockdown 2nd GF?

You are basically GFing again when your opponent is falling from the first initial GF. It is done to prevent opponents from jumping out or backdashing, but it will also stuff some attacks as mentioned above, Gaunlet Hades.

You can put it this way. If Tager...

... Atomic Coliders... He wins against jump outs and some moves such as Noel's 2D, and Ragna's Gaunlet Hades. But loses if your opponent backdashes, uses any ground attack, or blocks.

... Throws (360A and GETB specifically)... He wins against some backdashes (If throws are held), all ground attacks that are not invincible or if your opponent decides to block. But loses to jump out/jump attacks, some backdashes, and DPs.

... Attacks (5A, 5B, 5C, 2C are some options)... He wins against some attacks, jump outs, and backdashes. But loses to some normals, some jump outs, some backdashes, definitely to DPs, or if they decide to block. This will vary though (ex. if Tager does 5C to bait backdash, he can still get hit out if the opponent uses a faster normal than him. It kinda gets messy here and requires super yomi.).

... GFs... He wins against jump out (Except against Lambda as mentioned by MikeZ), backdashes, and airborne attacks. But loses if your opponent does any ground attack. In the event GF is successful, you can RC and go for a combo for a little gain. Even if GF whiffs your opponent's backdash, it will still allow you to buffer 720 and send them to hell since GF will pull them back.

You really are bettering your chances at a successful oki. There are risks involved, but when you look at the other options there are even more risks.

[huey253]

which characters can backdash tager's 5A?

[Hitage]

So I'm just wondering. Why does this even work?

[DoomieJ]

which characters can backdash tager's 5A?

i assume lambda and tager atleast. 6A is gdlk against backdashers too.