[CS1] Tsubaki Yayoi - General Discussion

[Felicia]

So how is she looking? I mean, I figured she wouldn't exactly be Nu status right out of the gate, but does it seem like she needs time and work or she's just weak as a character?

Kinda weak.

Basic issues include; lack of range, punishable block strings, no cross-ups/poor mix-up game.

Also, 3C guarantees it's follow-up. 3C into j.C isn't any stronger than 3CC; you'll still be able to go into an air-combo from either one. 3CC might get you into better positioning than 3C > j.C.

3C being jump-cancel-able does lead to a lot of good stuff, though. Not just j.C, but you can safely bait DPs, or leap back and start Installing or whatever.

[sanshiki]

against aggressive DP/zoning characters (think Jin, Ragna and Litchi), if you get like 60+% heat (from IBing or getting killed) before a chance to corner the opponent with sufficient install gauge I'd say its better to just land a super to charge safely, do some bonus damage and keep your heat meter uncapped. Being DP characters, its best to do burst damage against them which is not really Tsubaki's forte, so its easy to trap yourself into chasing them down trying to deal damage, but end up getting reversal SRKed (Have you seen how fast everyone gains heat to RC their DP now?) Some people advocate 22C combos but seriously, Tsubaki has problems finding opportunities to use heat not gain it. (Do a normal 5A 5BB 2BB 5BB 236A 214B 22C combo and see how much meter you get for horrid damage.) Having at least 3-4 install meters stocked give you a chance to reversal srk D rekka out of Ragnas, and at the very least gets him to be more wary of you, giving you more breathing room. By the way, 3C also goes into TK j.236C for delicious mindgames. There's no apparent landing recovery so...

[Felicia]

Again, no reason to go for a throw after 236D- you can combo after it on hit, and on block you're too far away to just throw and dash -> throw after that will probably get you hit anyways.

You won't get charge through charge cancel very quickly or safely or at all. Charge when you have space (turtle -> charge, or after a combo, etc.).

If your opponent is in a corner and Tsubaki 236D's, she'll appear behind him, and you can throw them from that position. So it's possible, but only in corners. Tsubaki's throw range, in general, is pretty short.

In general, after 236D - regardless of whether it's blocked or not - you tend to have minor frame advantage. So what you do from that position can be in your favor. Really, though, if you hit with 236D it's best to follow up with 5B and continue the combo. If you're blocked, about the only thing you can do (assuming your opponent doesn't go with something slower than 5 frames) is 2A, and start a mix up.

[AdamNW]

Is anyone else reminded of Millia Rage when they see Tsubaki vids? She was my main in GGXX, so I thought Tsubaki would be a perfect fit for me.

[Felicia]

against aggressive DP/zoning characters (think Jin, Ragna and Litchi), if you get like 60+% heat (from IBing or getting killed) before a chance to corner the opponent with sufficient install gauge I'd say its better to just land a super to charge safely, do some bonus damage and keep your heat meter uncapped.

Being DP characters, its best to do burst damage against them which is not really Tsubaki's forte, so its easy to trap yourself into chasing them down trying to deal damage, but end up getting reversal SRKed (Have you seen how fast everyone gains heat to RC their DP now?)

Some people advocate 22C combos but seriously, Tsubaki has problems finding opportunities to use heat not gain it. (Do a normal 5A 5BB 2BB 5BB 236A 214B 22C combo and see how much meter you get for horrid damage.)

Having at least 3-4 install meters stocked give you a chance to reversal srk D rekka out of Ragnas, and at the very least gets him to be more wary of you, giving you more breathing room.

By the way, 3C also goes into TK j.236C for delicious mindgames. There's no apparent landing recovery so...

214214D may not be a bad option to go into. It functions similar to Mugen, but without the 8 star requirement. So Tsubaki can go into it often (with the way she gains meter and how dependent 236236C/D is for Install). Might be best to have 2 Install stocks, go 214214D and then do some stuff. You'll be able to use more than 3 or 4 D moves with just 2 Installs.

[lxMetalSonicxl]

About how long does Tsubaki Install last?

[kro_]

214214D may not be a bad option to go into. It functions similar to Mugen, but without the 8 star requirement. So Tsubaki can go into it often (with the way she gains meter and how dependent 236236C/D is for Install). Might be best to have 2 Install stocks, go 214214D and then do some stuff. You'll be able to use more than 3 or 4 D moves with just 2 Installs.

Has anyone been able to find ways to combo into install besides throw? I'm pretty sure 1-2 bar install combos would be better than comboing into barless super if there were more setups.

About how long does Tsubaki Install last?

Bars drain a little faster than how Rachel's wind used to recover in CT. So, I guess each bar lasts ~2 seconds.

[CrimsonDisaster]

whatever juggle to 6C xx install super 22D, install super CH 2C xx install super

[Prototype909]

I've been hearing Tsubaki being described as "Poor man's Ragna" any truth to that? Because if so, sad face.

[STenSatsu]

Well, she doesn't seem to do anything as well as Ragna, so that would be correct just from looking at vids. She looks a ton more fun to play though. Also, no crossups for her? And what do you generally do after corner bnb without charges, since it doesn't seem like you can safely charge after any bnb into the corner. Just meaty and mixup?

[Prototype909]

So basically Tsubaki is Order Sol is Slash. Nice. Her problem right now seems like her range is too short and she also lacks good mixups, and combined with her inability to charge safely (Or rather, conveniently) she just ends up being pretty bad at this point.

[kro_]

Ragna has better damage, range, priority, and good positioning off combos that always seem to end in knockdown or 22c. Tsubaki is a little faster, and most of her combos end with knocking the opponent far away from her into the corner. This would be an advantage if her normals had the reach to execute a good zoning game, but this is not the case. She can potentially have better mixups and improve her damage though, so we'll just have to experiment or wait and see. She's far from being a bad character, but I can't really see her ending up anywhere other than mid tier.

[4r5]

She's not Slash Order-Sol, yet. Not in till someone figures out a way to turn a lucky counter-hit into an over 50% life combo. She's looking more like Slash Robo-Ky. Play solid, and whelp, keep playing solid for like 20 more exchanges.

[CrimsonDisaster]

She's not Slash Order-Sol, yet. Not in till someone figures out a way to turn a lucky counter-hit into an over 50% life combo.

She's looking more like Slash Robo-Ky. Play solid, and whelp, keep playing solid.

Tsubaki would be way cooler if she randomly EXPLODED

[4r5]

"Your sins lay heavy upon you, defiler of souls!" :randomexplode:

[Tsuki Garyuu]

Funny thing about Tsubaki's theme though, she's 1st Liutenant, yet I think the theme makes her as epic as a Commedant. such is the magic of Daisuke.

[Hurricane Rev]

Tsubaki would be way cooler if she randomly EXPLODED

Hmm.... I prefer her putting a bag over her head like Faust. :P

I've been hearing Tsubaki being described as "Poor man's Ragna" any truth to that? Because if so, sad face.

What???? Tsubaki being described as "Poor man's Ragna"????? I totally don't agree with that.

Tsubaki dosen't play anything like Ragna. However, I would accept Tsubaki being described as "Poor Man's Order Sol". Or Maybe, I'm missing something?

[Silmerion]

Is anyone else reminded of Millia Rage when they see Tsubaki vids? She was my main in GGXX, so I thought Tsubaki would be a perfect fit for me.

Millia and Tsubaki are completely different. Tsubaki might be about as fast, but Milla's all like, "I'll kill you with highly ambiguous okizeme!" and Tsubaki's all like, "It shall be engraved upon your soul! Divine Assault - oh wait I'm a mediocre character lol."

[AdamNW]

I was talking more generally, because they are both really fast and their combos are really easy to find/pull off.

[Felicia]

Well I played around a bit with Tsubaki (not as much as I could have, really). And basically, if Tsubaki doesn't want to force a mix-up or really, engage the opponent, she can just cancel a single normal hit into 22C and space herself out for Installs. No complex block strings are really needed. And on a positive end, 22C does leave her fairly safe. I found where her invincibility is on her 623A. It's located in front of her. I'd guess her arm/leg. Basically you could Barrier to push out the opponent then 623A to break any long range strings. Actually seems to work really well against, Litchi. 214214D, even just throwing this in for mix-ups seems pretty good because you could do a number of normal strings, then cancel in 236D, pop right behind the opponent and go from there. You could do this with just a normal Install. But 214214D gives you a limited time for an infinite amount of D specials, that you could create situations where the opponent is literally spinning and isn't sure where to block. It might be me, but it also seems like you do more damage while under 214214D's effects. j.236D > j.214D is really strong. If the block the attack, they're locked in block stun (and position) for a long while. Regardless of whether the attack hits or not, Tsubaki recovers instantly and you can create a pretty mean mix-up here. For example, if they block j.214D standing, they're stuck like that until the animation ends, meaning you could go low for a guaranteed combo. Problem with this, is that it requires 2 Installs. I decided to play a more defensive game with Tsubaki this time around. I found it a lot easier to pick up Install stocks and just playing, almost solidly, with Install moves. It turned out a bit better than I expected. But I did run into issues where I was hitting Negative Warnings. So I'll need to find some areas where I can just bait the opponent. Luckily, Installing by itself seems to send off flags that I need to hit, and if you have a good feel for the recovery time on your Installs, you should do okay. Funnily enough, I couldn't get the opponent to really come at me during jumping Installs. 2D and 5D they'd rush me, but j.D they didn't come close. Strange. Unfortunately, I didn't really play against a character with a strong rush down, so I don't know how effective this is against Bang/Ragna/Noel or Lambda. I imagine these guys won't make it that easy. BTW, here's a combo I tried out. Worked against Tager all right, not sure how well it'll do against someone else: 5BB > 2BB > 5CC > 214A > 623C > j.214C. Of course any variant that leads to 214A should work.

[Prototype909]

Tsubaki dosen't play anything like Ragna. However, I would accept Tsubaki being described as "Poor Man's Order Sol". Or Maybe, I'm missing something?

Both are rushdown characters, except Ragna pretty much surpasses Tsubaki in every way. Damage, range, priority, invincibility, etc.

[Hurricane Rev]

Both are rushdown characters, except Ragna pretty much surpasses Tsubaki in every way. Damage, range, priority, invincibility, etc.

Oh, I see. Thanks for explaining that to me. I was looking at a different picture. Like, Tsubaki is a charge up character (A weak Version of Order Sol) and Ragna is a non charge up character if you know what me.

[Tsuki Garyuu]

Oh, I see. Thanks for explaining that to me. I was looking at a different picture. Like, Tsubaki is a charge up character (A weak Version of Order Sol) and Ragna is a non charge up character if you know what me.

True. after all, we know Ragna's an all-around characters with many fixes for combos. Tsubaki has her own fix of combos with just more hits and connecting one move to another. Pretty much like Noel expect she doesn't leave herself vulnerable.

[Spud]

Isn't j.C a decent crossup crossup? I think I've seen it some in videos.

[CrimsonDisaster]

Tsubaki's DP hitbox is not only projectile based, it's also very far forward; like, wakeup DP whiffs if they were jumping forward, lol get punished. On the bright side, you aren't in counter-hit state on landing so the punish combo won't be some hilarious 5k fatal counter?