[CS1] Hakumen vs Tager

[JackG]

TAGER

Matchup Statistics

Japanese Ranking: 5.5-4.5

Personally: 5.5-4.5

4c and j.c made this retarded easy fight even more retardedly easy

Punishes: Air- One way Tager can get in is through jumping at you, usually forcing your guard with j.b>j.c land. Luckily Hakumen has multiple great anti airs, so punish his jump on reaction with 2c (if he superjumps) or usually 6a assuming he's closer to the ground. You can punish with 5d/6d but if he empty jumps he can 360/720 you for punish, so might as well take the safer damage through 6a or 2c. Beware if he jumps and immediately does j.c, it gives him horizontal momentum, causing him to go over you and cause 6a to whiff. Just make sure you keep track of that.

Ground- In terms of getting in, Tager has B sledge, 5d, 2d, or walking forward. His gameplan will usually consist of forcing you to guard a 5d, giving him a much easier time to get in on you after that. B sledge and 2d are safe on block (+2 and -1 respectively) while 5d can cancel into A or B sledge so it is safe as well. So all of his ways in are fairly safe, they're all fairly telegraphed and slow to start so you can 5d, 2d, or 6d on reaction (5d preferred.) Against sledge, Tager can hold it and make you miss your counter, so punishing sledge with 5b is usually in your best interest. Mashing on 2d will catch Tager's pressure after he pressures A or B sledge, but he can Buster so it's not usually in your best interest to do that.

Tager's super where he spins and ends in the overhead at the end is super easily punishable, and not only that but it usually sucks you in next to him (assuming he's magnetized.) Take your choice of 6c CH or 5c CH into whatever (usually 5c> 623a~a> jc falling j.C> etc.)

Counters:

Anti-airing:

Zoning: 4c and j.c all day, throw occasional 6c to break guard primers. What the hell's he gonna do about it anyways.

Their game plan: Force you to guard to magnetize you, then get up in your face and mix you up with Tager buster or 5a into pressure resets, heat/2c to catch jumps, etc.

Strategy: Space Tager and fight him at an optimal range for you, for me it's where I can land max range 6c and 3c (Now 4c and j.c). This is the only fight where H-man is the faster character, so you can really determine the pace of the fight. Stall when you need stars, always keep an eye on Tager's projectile bar gauge and know when you need to bait it. I generally roll out 632146 when I'm zoning with 6c and hit confirm into super if I got it and he gets hit.

Poor Hakumen's backdash has ZERO invincibility frames, so trying to backdash Tager's frame trap mixup usually isn't the best since you'll always get hit out of it (unless of course he goes for a throw.)

Char specific details:

jC via reacting to opponent movement is strong, likewise for 4C(and occasional 6C) spamamge, but if magnetized zoning game becomes even. If caught into wakeup game can die in one go. Hotaru makes things slightly difficult for tager though. Slight advantage

[Xiaounlimited]

Man, I am really having trouble with this matchup. Whenever I get magnetized, I don't know how to react and I end up getting 360'd repeatedly.

[SteelCoil]

Man, I am really having trouble with this matchup. Whenever I get magnetized, I don't know how to react and I end up getting 360'd repeatedly.

Jump

[mAc Chaos]

If you're even a pixel off the ground, Tager can't grab you. However, if he predicts a jump, he can snag you with Atomic Collider or 2C and you'll eat another combo into another throw setup. It comes down to who reads the other player better.

[qwerty]

that's why in those types of situations, you backdash or tk hotaru.

[Dacidbro]

Just to make sure it's noted, if you're slick on your instant blocks, his 2D is not safe on block. And it's highly telegraphed, so get that timing down.

[Manta]

Just to make sure it's noted, if you're slick on your instant blocks, his 2D is not safe on block. And it's highly telegraphed, so get that timing down.

Are you also implying that IBing Tager's 2D into a combo would give you better damage than using one of Hakumen's drives instead?

[ryokoalways]

jD will always return the most efficient amt of damage if you see 2D coming. You can burn a lot of meter to get more damage if you IB 2D into 5A/2A starter (in terms of meter/damage efficiency it's terrible, however), but unless you are going for the kill, it's better to use jD (or 2D if you are more comfortable with that).

Edit: Also, the best option would actually just be dash at tager and just hotaru, but you need good spacing and fast recognition.

[Blue Ipod Nano]

sorry guys, but i am kind of stuck on what to do after i get gadget finger'd. and on a side note, how do you tk hotaru? do you have to dash and then do it? or would a 2147B command work as well? and how do u sort of stop tager from jumping closer towards u. everytime he jumps i toss a jc and he blocks it, but it doesnt stop his forward momentum and he lands close to me

[DarthTrey]

tk hotaru is in fact 2147b you just have to delay your b input a slight amount as the command overlaps with renka(i HATE when that happens).

[Zeru]

I have a lot of problems keeping Tager off me in this match-up for some reason.

I usually do well at the start, unless I misjudge my distance, but inevitably make a mistake and get I get caught by Tager and go from 80-90% life to dead in short order.

I'm never sure exactly how to respond when I'm blocking his hits close up, as it seems to keep me in place long enough for the Tager player to inevitably land 360 or 720 of me without a chance to escape. Is there a way for me to jab out of this, or should I be going for a D input to counter his next hit?

[AlphaMeridian]

I also need help with this matchup. In CT I was slowly getting better at it by being very patient and defining range with 6C, but in CS it seems that everything I do is just wrong. I block at the wrong time, I tech at the wrong time, and at the end of this is the eternal 360/720. I've been trying to use 4C, 6C, and jC more often, but none of them work for me very well. I'm still getting my ass kicked by the Score Attack Tager not to mention anyone actually good at him on psn. I will grant that I am also making a switch from controller to stick right now, but lately I haven't felt as if I'm whiffing moves that I'm trying to input, but rather that my timing on everything is off completely. if i jC it whiffs and if i try to counter a rush with 4C/6C, it'll come out a shade too early or late (at which point he is in my face)

[[X]CC[X]]

This Match Can be brutal. I tend to Zone to him 4c JC 6C like other say. JD is always good idea but eventually they'll just block when you do it too often. Yeah try not to get mag. That Kinda end your game for a few sec. 360/720 that all on you to predict really.

[Blue Ipod Nano]

well, the best range to keep tager at is a little farther than the 4c range. if he gets within 4c range, u need to back up more. if he is out of 4c range, and he jumps, u can easily j.c to hit him away, at that range, even if he blocks it, it'll be safe for you. also if tager is within 4c range, some of his normals like 6c and 2d can reach you. keeping tager a little farther than 4c range also lets u react to B sledges and his 2d if hes feeling ballsy (just 4c him and it'll ch at this range). well thats my 2cents =/

[whitevoid]

if you're having problems with Tager, one of the things that helps me is to remember that you can't simply neglect going for damage. theoretically, you can just 4C and jC him all day... but if you can't (and generally a worthwhile Tager shouldn't let you), he can make up the damage on that quickly and stay up in your face once he does. just relying on poke damage to win you the match isn't going to cut it against Tager. don't go crazy, but you can't just go for super-safe no-damage options. he just has too much life and can recover from small damage gaps too easily.

[qwerty]

i'm going to cover this in more detail once i finish the hakumen guide, but this (i think) is the correct way to play this matchup (and most of hakumen's matchups); keep them out until you have at least four bars of meter, because then you're a real threat at every range.

you most definitely don't want to approach tager without being able to break 4K, so the rule applies here.

[mAc Chaos]

Yeah, you don't want to just try and poke him to death THE ENTIRE MATCH, it's just a stalling tactic to build up stars and perhaps bait him into making more mistakes.

When are you gonna finish that guide qwerty? I want it. Also do you think you remember enough / have been keeping up on the changes since you haven't been playing lately?

[Sophisticat]

So I played the guy who won our city-wide CS tourney (yours truly didn't do too shabby, finishing top 8. *cough* I digress...), and I gotta say Tager can still be a pain to deal with.

So, Q #1: After Gadget Finger, does Hotaru beat out anything Tager does outside of backdash?

I feel like Hotaru and j.D are my only ways of getting damage against a good Tager who knows his defense. Poking with j.C and 4c, and waiting out until you have stars isn't always good because he has Spark Bolt.

So, Q #2: what are my best opportunities to get in damage?

[BearBlaster]

I know that tager can dodge hotaru with Atomic Collider if he times it well and he can also Gadget Finger a second time when you hotaru and you'll get caught

[whitevoid]

1) Lol. At first I thought you meant, if backdash was the only thing it beats... which was confusing. I believe double gadget will catch which they can RC for 2K damage, which if you feel like you can afford to take the hit is fairly negligible. I mean, if you're having trouble with the match-up already, then Tager is probably getting more than 2K damage for 50 meter. I hear it clashes with AC in a way that you wouldn't be able to jump cancel it, but I haven't experienced that.

2) I like leading the offense with 5A since Tager can't duck it and it gives good frames. If Tager doesn't play too aggressive, you can get a mix-up off of jC and empty jump land 3C. jC can come out fairly late in the jump and both are pretty quick, nets you decent damage for being pretty safe. I found that Tager could AC me from much farther out than I had originally thought though. Other than that, I just poke -> hit confirm and Hotaru is good. I probably should be able to D more in this match-up, but I never time it right and always eat the hits.

My pain problem with Tager is just that I can't AA him worth crap and for whatever reason j2C owns my soul. But that's just me sucking.

[mAc Chaos]

Jabbing at Tager is just asking to get 360A'd though.

[Edge Reaper]

@Sophist: Q2- Honestly I wouldn't try any form of big damage till you get 4 stars. Even then, the only attack I personally feel safe with using is Zantetsu.

However (also just from my experience) Tsubaki tends to have good results, especially if you TK it. Very few ever expect it, but right off the top of my head, I don't know any combo's to follow it up with.

Opportunity wise (going against the norm here), I find that IAD after a successful D attack (besides 6D) usually is a great way to blind side them. If it starts to feel less then safe, back off and proceed to poke the shit out of them. This is also a good way to piss them off and get them to start making mistakes which makes finding damage opportunities even easier. Though (I need to find a way to stamp this in my posts) this is just from my personal online experience.

Also JD> J2C. I have way too much fun with this.

[whitevoid]

Jabbing at Tager is just asking to get 360A'd though.

What's your point? Do you never use moves that can be beaten out by other moves? It's not like they are going to see your 5 frame jab and 360 it on reaction.

[qwerty]

anti-air tager with 2C, j.D and hotaru.

[Sophisticat]

Hum, guess I'll work on the stuff mentioned in here.

I don't have too much trouble per se (it's at least no longer my worst match like in CT), it's just some of his traps and shenanigans I have trouble avoiding/knowing how to punish.

@Sophist: Q2- Honestly I wouldn't try any form of big damage till you get 4 stars. Even then, the only attack I personally feel safe with using is Zantetsu.

Zan? It's not that good outside of combos. Tsubaki's the better overhead.

You don't need consistent big damage on Tager, just Hotaru in your arsenal since it's 3.7k at the minimum.

However (also just from my experience) Tsubaki tends to have good results, especially if you TK it. Very few ever expect it, but right off the top of my head, I don't know any combo's to follow it up with.

Yeah, it's good if you condition them to block low. Combos:

(0 stars) -> 2c -> j.2a -> AD j.2a -> j.C

(Whatever) -> 5c -> whatever.