[CS1] Litchi Fresh Meat buns Thread (Guide and Combo Discussion)

[Samco]

Any general guidelines for staffless combos? Because I find myself just chaining some hits and ending with haku hatsu chun way too often when I'm staffless.

[ATGMantenbo]

true i noticed in shonen's older matches, ppl were sj'ing out of daisharin coz he used 133333 after a 6D.

and noticed that daisharin 138333 shuts down pretty much all the characters options of escape.

I did some experimenting with 138333 followed by hatsu after 6c, and came up with the following results:

if they forward roll while you are landing, daisharin1 will catch them

if they quick recover or backroll, hatsu will catch them

if they neutral recover and jump, hatsu will catch them in their jumping animation(not sure)

if they neutral recover and block hatsu, you put them in a high low mixup game which is what you want

if they wakeup reversal, your hatsu will get punished but hell, daisharin is still there

also severin, in your flowchart you wrote option select hatsu; does it mean hatsu will only come out when certain requirements are met and vice versa?

can you please explain what that is.

[ATGMantenbo]

Any general guidelines for staffless combos? Because I find myself just chaining some hits and ending with haku hatsu chun way too often when I'm staffless.

try to always get a knockdown staffless or not even if you have to sacrifice some dmg .. if you're forced to end your combo with haku hatsu chun by any means, end it with haku chun hatsu because hatsu will make them recover closer to the ground than chun.

the gereral staffless combo i use is:

2C > 3C > haku > chun > small dash 2A > 5B > j.bc > dash 5C(or 2B > 2C on light weights) > j.bc > dash 5C > j.bc > 3C

gets me knockdown and pressure afterwards

[Lord Knight]

OS hatsu = input hatsu as 236A+B. If they roll out of the corner, you will barrier instead of hatsu. React, dash out of the corner, and combo appropriately. Normally they could just roll, your hatsu would whiff, and then they could tech out and do whatever.

[lunaris]

i believe the main reason 6c>daisharin is used over 6d>daisharin is because the cancellability window's end on 6d coincides nearly with the time that you'd be able activate DSR to force an enemy to block hit 2 of DSR on neutral tech(if you're not delaying the DSR severely you aren't doing it right). in other words, you can delay the DSR more by using 6c because there's no point at which you can no longer cancel it, which affords more frame advantage(not to mention being easier and with no risk of losing the staff).

a non-hit-confirmed hatsu after daisharin sounds very odd. seems like it would leave you open to reversal on neutral tech and that other options might serve the same purpose with lower risk(2a/2b+barrier option select or 5b?). regrettably, i don't actually have much experience with litchi due to a lack of opponents, but it does seem that a quick rise>high jump is a counter to a daisharin timed for a neutral tech assuming litchi does nothing.

to add to the discussion of using daisharin inputs such as 19xxxx or 138xxx, i mostly observe litchi players doing this when they're up against characters like noel, jin, hakumen, or taokaka. using alternative DSR patterns forces the opponent to gamble if they want to use their usual escape routes(hakumen/jin parry, noel/tao CA); they don't know when you'll aim for the corner(or a location where they'll be vulnerable if they CA and you guessed right), so retaliatory poking/CA escapes/parries become more of a risk, discouraging their use and allowing you to mix them up. of course, this logic only applies to opponents who are aware of/heed the risk; an opponent who assumes you will never send DSR at them because you're scared of their usual options is likely to do whatever they feel like.

someone correct me if i'm wrong on any of this. it's not knowledge i've gained from personal experience nor is it absolute like a combo. i still feel like i have a lot to learn about daisharin.

[severin]

The hatsu not only catches jump attempts, but it also puts you in rekka follow-up state.

The purpose of this, is that the follow-up versions of chun are actually faster than the regular versions, with the air version of follow-up chun being 21 frames, and the grounded version at 23f. Same speed as 6A/3C, while catching jumpouts better.

The hatsu input itself also allows you to option select against rolls. As LK explained, since the hatsu input ends in a 6, inputting it with A+B will automatically barrier should they roll behind you, taking the reaction element out of the initial stages of the tech punish (you still have to remember to dash and 3C)

[lunaris]

i had a large post written out after going through testing, but it could basically be boiled down to this:

severin, i'm assuming you're responding to ATG, as that does not address my concerns. not meaning to be rude there if you were addressing me.

i'm pretty tired right now as i'm sick with a head cold/allergy, but i did a lot of testing and it seems to me that the only thing this hatsu idea counters is possibly a delayed neutral tech>jump. was it only being proposed as a cover for mistakes? i was thinking it was being proposed as a counter to quick rise>6hj(which would make more sense for a variety of reasons) for some reason, but after testing that doesn't seem to work at all.

the idea of option selecting it seems odd since a neutral tech should be reactable, and i believe you can counter a delayed neutral tech>6hj retreat by simply jumping to block their escape(and if they don't jump you can go for a fuzzy guard mixup). the OS idea made sense back when i was thinking of it as a method of countering quick rise, but it seems too slow to do that. moreover, a delayed neutral tech should cause hatsu to whiff, which both causes you to waste time and opens you up to a reversal.

finally, i have become curious as to whether forms of daisharin inputs that cause the staff to go above the opponent(ex. 19xxxx) are the only counter to quick rise>6hj that don't involve using 3 as the first input. also, LK, are you sure those forms of input aren't used to counter delayed neutral tech>jump and quick rise>6hj rather than simply for covering a mistake on DSR input or as character-specific counters(as i discussed earlier)?

i don't have the energy to do any more testing, so a more in-depth analysis/specific explanation of why this would be used and timings would be appreciated, unless i've understood everything correctly.

[Lord Knight]

I think you're misinterpreting what you're actually using the hatsu for.

At least for that input 138333, OS hatsu is used specifically to beat no tech/late tech/roll. On neutral tech, if they block you can follow up with mixup, and most reversals that would beat hatsu, you still have time to recover and punish.

As for the alternate inputs (ex 19xxxx and 138xxx) they do use them as ways to prevent jump outs (additionally on Tager he actually has to block the 9 input )

[lunaris]

I think you're misinterpreting what you're actually using the hatsu for.

At least for that input 138333, OS hatsu is used specifically to beat no tech/late tech/roll. On neutral tech, if they block you can follow up with mixup, and most reversals that would beat hatsu, you still have time to recover and punish.

As for the alternate inputs (ex 19xxxx and 138xxx) they do use them as ways to prevent jump outs (additionally on Tager he actually has to block the 9 input )

the thing is that i am under the impression that daisharin normally beats no tech/roll naturally. a delayed tech can cause the second hit of DSR to whiff and allow a jumpout, but isn't a neutral tech reactable? meaning, you wait to see if they neutral tech or roll and then react appropriately, rather than doing an OS.

either way i'd like to see this in a match video as i never remember seeing it. i'm guessing 5a would not cover the proper area to be anti-jump(even though it's significantly faster)?

and just to be clear, the timing of the hatsu is simply immediately after daisharin(grounded) recovery?

[Lord Knight]

It's more because with the 138xxx setup (from the video), there is a set combo for roll out of the corner.

I think 5A would be all right if you ended the combo with dash 6C > Daisharin tbh.

[Kenny tuty]

Interesting topic. I'm in love with the 13833 set up, so here's my view point.

>>lunaris

the thing is, if you can react, just go ahead and don't use os hatsu.

your point that chun overhead isn't great is absolutely true.

21f is decent, but once we use hatsu all they need to be concentrate is chun.

so of course it's better to not use hatsu.

I personally think it is extremely difficult to punish all the getting out ways properly without using the os hatsu.

We tend to over estimate what we can, but this charactor requires solid execution.

The stability of the set up is just too good. any launch is easy hit confirming with simple combo that gives 4K+50% at least.

In my opinion, keep it as simple as it can is the way to go with her.

But once we show them how powerful this set up is, it's time to not use hatsu for sure.

With the pressure of this, we can finally THROW in the corner set up!

The mix ups by throw and all the kamone litchi has, it'll be impossible to guard.

It's time for us to look for more daisyarin set ups that can used after 6C, I guess.

I really hope they won't take away the daisyarin set ups in ver 2.0.

I believe this is something she should have, not like the stupid damage.

[lunaris]

LK, i'm aware of that and don't quite understand how that becomes a reason to use hatsu(OS or not), but i am having a very difficult time imagining exactly what this is supposed to look like. maybe it's best we move on from this subject, as discussing it doesn't seem to be getting it through to me. i'll just look out for it on videos or try it myself, although i don't think i have an opponent that i can use it on(see 3rd paragraph). do you use it in your match videos?

kenny, sounds like you value it a lot. i'm suspecting that the reason i'm having difficulty understanding the value of this is because of my opponent's patterns(see below).

anyways, thanks for trying to help me understand it. i'll keep an eye out in videos, and if i can, try it out in real matches, but i don't think i have any competition that attempts to get out of DSR in a manner that makes this usable(my competition either always neutral tech>blocks or they try to roll and get hit) so it might be difficult.

and yeah, i really hope they don't change the proration on her combos but actually change the damage/meter gain, unless they can find some super solution that doesn't necessitate completely relearning the character. relearning the proper enders for every move again after only 6 months would be painful to say the least. on the other hand, having somewhat shorter combos is a little attractive... hmm.

[Kenny tuty]

Yeah, if they don't do ntech hj to get away, this set up isn't that great.

If they just guard daisyarin, do kamone. it's much better mix up.

Before this set up come out, daisyarin set up had only 50% chance to actually get them.

HJ to get away or front roll to get away. didn't have option to bait both at the same time consistently.

well, maybe a little higher than 50%. But it was pretty hard to land decent combo after the hit.

5A to punish the jump gives you only about 3000 damage with 30% meter.

Instead of hatsu brings us up 5000 with 60% meter.

I think I used this set ups in the matches in NCI.

So you might be able to see how it works in real matches.

Tourney pressure made me drop them a lot, so it won't look that great tho. haha

[lunaris]

Yeah, if they don't do ntech hj to get away, this set up isn't that great.

If they just guard daisyarin, do kamone. it's much better mix up.

Before this set up come out, daisyarin set up had only 50% chance to actually get them.

HJ to get away or front roll to get away. didn't have option to bait both at the same time consistently.

well, maybe a little higher than 50%. But it was pretty hard to land decent combo after the hit.

5A to punish the jump gives you only about 3000 damage with 30% meter.

Instead of hatsu brings us up 5000 with 60% meter.

I think I used this set ups in the matches in NCI.

So you might be able to see how it works in real matches.

Tourney pressure made me drop them a lot, so it won't look that great tho. haha

thanks, i will look for them. i know the combos so the player dropping them isn't a concern for me, i just need to see/understand the setup. i think i am beginning to understand how it would work on a delayed neutral tech, but not quick rise.

is the hatsu expected to actually hit in this setup? how? i thought it was assumed that they would be blocking the hatsu after an hj attempt with the purpose of forcing them back to the ground, which is why i thought 5a would be a superior option(assuming you can react). unless hatsu somehow hits them out of their opening jump frames after a neutral tech, i don't see why anyone would get hit by it(seems ridiculous not to block until you're safely away from daisharin).

[Kenny tuty]

we react to the techs and input 236AB. But we (at least I) can't figure out which tech it is when I actually input it.

Therefore, the using of option select.

if they are front rolling, FD comes out. other rolls, hatsu hit them and daisyarin picks it up.

If they are neutral teching and jumping, hatsu will hit the jumping motion.

So, only way of avoiding hit is just stay still and guard hatsu for many of the cast in the game.

[lunaris]

we react to the techs and input 236AB. But we (at least I) can't figure out which tech it is when I actually input it.

Therefore, the using of option select.

if they are front rolling, FD comes out. other rolls, hatsu hit them and daisyarin picks it up.

If they are neutral teching and jumping, hatsu will hit the jumping motion.

So, only way of avoiding hit is just stay still and guard hatsu for many of the cast in the game.

thanks, that helps and i understand your logic/can picture it a bit better now.

i'll try it out if i ever get the chance. it's not really possible to test this in training mode because you can't make the dummy do random delayed neutral techs, so i guess i'll just have to see if i can't give my competition a better understanding of how DSR works so that they'll do things that let me try this out.

what i am thinking right now is that it sounds good if trying to react to a delayed neutral tech with 5a makes it so i don't have enough time to punish DSR hitting a roll with a proper combo.

[Lord Knight]

Be glad that these threads will never reach 1k posts

[dennch7]

first of all, nice guide!!

and i have a BIG issue with the CS litchi, whenever i do the 5B-2C-ItsuuA-6Kote-Haku-Hatsu-RichiiA-IppatsuA-......

I keep on missing the IppatsuA, ALWAYS! The kick just doesnt connect!! are there any delays on the Haku or Hatsu? And i always start the 5B up-close so i dont have to dash.

Please, please, please help......

[Nakkiel]

Try delaying Hatsu after Haku. If that doesn't work, try dashing forward when you do 6Kote or Haku (6623 or 2366 respectively). If both of those for some reason don't fix your problem, delay ItsuuA after 2C.

[True_Tech]

lk told me about this combo a month ago i don't think either of us shared it with dl, tager only in the corner

b 2c itsuuA 4kote haku hatsu riichiA ippatsuA ippatsuB land hatsu haku chun 2d sj8 jC falling jC (i did jc dj falling jc cause i'm bad at the sj) itsuuC j9C 4kote falling jC 2c 6c(2) 3c 2d dash 6c daisharin

[Nakkiel]

So seeing that combo in the video above along with a combo variation I saw a JP player do, I came up with a new BNB at certain ranges from the corner (this might be known already but might as well post it)

5B 2C ItsuuA 6kote Haku Hatsu RiichiA IppatsuA IppatsuB delay tk.Hatsu Haku Chun 2D (staff must be about no further than a 4kote from the corner for this to hit) late j.C staff2 2C ItsuuA 4kote 3C 2D 6C 6D Daisharin (optional)

Hits 5K (don't have exact numbers right now, no game available to test) works on everyone. Off of 2C starter you can get an extra ItsuuA repetition and the combo will hit 6K with no supers. 7.2K~ with Daisharin 339999 Hatsu Daisharin2 Kokushi Musou

Variation in the corner I mentioned but more difficult to do

5B 2C ItsuuA 6kote Haku Hatsu RiichiA IppatsuA 2 44 (drop and airbackdash under opponent) j.Hatsu Haku Chun 2D late j.C 2C ItsuuA 4kote 3C 2D 6C 6D Daisharin (optional)

Same stipulations as the first combo, can get an extra rep of ItsuuA with 2C starter. I believe damage for this combo is slightly less than the first one I've listed, but again I have no way to test for exact numbers right now.

[Urichinan]

Fun Jin and Tager specific RC combo:

2C[m] > ItsuuA > 66 > 5C > Haku > Chun > RC > Backward IAD > j.B > Hatsu > RiichiA > IppatsuA > IIppatsuB > 2D > j.B > j.C > 66 > Staff 2 > 6C(2) > 6D[m] > ItsuuC > j.C > 4Kote > j.C > 3C > 2D > 6C(2) > 6D[m](Depends on how much Heat you started with) > Diasharin

Close to the corner you can do IppatsuB > 6B > 2D > j.C > 2C[m] > ItsuuA > 4Kote > 3C > 2D > 6C(2)

Combo gains 52 or 53 Heat AFTER the Rapid, but you have to use 6D[m], if you start from above 50 Heat though you can just do 6C(2) > Diasharin

The Backward IAD > j.B > Hatsu is hard to do on Tager because you might Hatsu the wrong way, the trick is to delay j.B and then delay Hatsu (Like her Ippatsu BnBs) so that she will face the opponent during the Hatsu.

Also I was toying around with what to do after a Chun in the corner when the staff is far away and got:

Chun > Haku > Chun > Hatsu > Haku > Chun > Hatsu > Chun

It does aboout 2600 - 2700 damage. Although you could just do the j.B > j.C loops... >.>

Edited November 15, 2010 by Urichinan

[Romeyurhomey]

Beginning Litchi player.

I'm starting to get use to how litchi works but the combo

5B 5C 3C itsuuC sjChun 2C j.BCD airdash j.C staff2 6C but I always mess up with either the airdash or j.C, is it something with the timing that I need to delay?

[Nakkiel]

Airdash as soon as you recover from j.D and hit j.C. It helps to use advance input with j.C (hit and hold the button, it'll repeat for 5 frames). At certain placement ranges of the staff you will want to hit j.C later into your airdash, but worry about that later when you're better.

[mynus]

Beginning Litchi player.

I'm starting to get use to how litchi works but the combo

5B 5C 3C itsuuC sjChun 2C j.BCD airdash j.C staff2 6C but I always mess up with either the airdash or j.C, is it something with the timing that I need to delay?

While knowing all of your characters options are very important, realistically you shouldnt be learning that combo in the first place when there are better options now that are easier, net you corner KD and do more damage.