[CS1] Litchi Fresh Meat buns Thread (Guide and Combo Discussion)

[TD]

I was talking about in general...

edit - Forget it.

[Lord Knight]

After coming back I think that link might be character specific midscreen. I couldn't do it at all on Tsubaki, but I had it up to a decent level of consistency against Jin.

[lunaris]

ls tk chun still effective?

yes, with some qualifications; overall it's mostly usable for the same purposes it was in CT, but it's a little overshadowed by newer developments. it's no longer part of any ideal combos, but it's usable for decent damage through CT combos that still work(and is easier at longer distances, which may be important if your enemy is close to death). it does still give frame advantage on its first active frame.

hope that answered your question. i figured you were mostly asking about its frame advantage and usability in combos. i don't think it's slowed down, but i don't think it ever had much of a purpose as an overhead anyways.

After coming back I think that link might be character specific midscreen. I couldn't do it at all on Tsubaki, but I had it up to a decent level of consistency against Jin.

i'll test this out today.

also, i don't know if this is known or not, but i found a fuzzy guard setup in the corner a bit ago:

[litchi above the opponent, staff in or near corner] j.[d]>j.C>jc>j.C>chun>]d[ during chun's activation>...(combo differs here depending on whether the staff was in the 5d or 2d position)

(from 5d)5b>delay>2c[m]>itsuu loop

(from 2d)staff2>6c/2c[m]>itsuu loop

i think the max damage i could get off it was ~3.5k? seems viable as long as you can position yourself right(would work after a 2c jump cancel) since releasing the staff early and going with a normal blockstring is a counter to simple anti air, run through, and jump-away strategies. my main concern besides setting it up is whether it's punishable if chun is blocked; since the timing is a little tight, anyone familiar with the setup should be able to IB chun and/or staff2 easily if they predict your overhead.

[Urichinan]

Would it be possible to do something along the lines of 4D[m] -> 4Kote -> j.Falling B -> 5B -> 3C -> 2D -> 5B -> 6C(1) -> Itsuu Loop in the corner?

[TeeJay]

I feel like such an idiot after just learning CT litchi starting a month ago. I have to ignore the urge of being discouraged by the combos.

[lunaris]

Would it be possible to do something along the lines of 4D[m] -> 4Kote -> j.Falling B -> 5B -> 3C -> 2D -> 5B -> 6C(1) -> Itsuu Loop in the corner?

yes, similar combos have been posted in this thread already. just hit ctrl+f and search the pages for 4d.

I feel like such an idiot after just learning CT litchi starting a month ago. I have to ignore the urge of being discouraged by the combos.

to be honest it requires a lot of effort(to be good, maybe not to win at an average level) and you can still use many of the CT combos with the new litchi, just with some variations.

you'll probably feel like even more of a fool if you put a ton of effort into learning litchi's new stuff and the patch completely changes her such that you'll have to relearn everything. it's very possible that litchi will be nerfed or changed in a way that if you try to learn her combos in and out, in 6 month's time it won't apply any more. litchi and bang are the most likely characters to receive nerfs, and one of the things most widely considered a problem with litchi is the length of her combos(therefore they are very likely to change).

if i followed what my wisdom told me i would simply be practicing a sub until i knew more about the patch...

[Most Unknown]

Lunaris- I don't think they're gonna shorten the length of her combos per say, I believe it has something to do wit the meter gain she gets off her combos and the fact that she can potentially get 4.8K off juss 5B 2C into rape and end wit super. The nerfs will probably be less meter gain, and some damage scale...Since the tech clock is no longer a problem, all the characters especially the the top 3 benefit from this. So a length of her combos being nerf is highly unlikely.

[MiraclePizza]

edit: Whoops, nm.

[Lord Knight]

also, i don't know if this is known or not, but i found a fuzzy guard setup in the corner a bit ago:

[litchi above the opponent, staff in or near corner] j.[d]>j.C>jc>j.C>chun>]d[ during chun's activation>...(combo differs here depending on whether the staff was in the 5d or 2d position)

(from 5d)5b>delay>2c[m]>itsuu loop

(from 2d)staff2>6c/2c[m]>itsuu loop

i think the max damage i could get off it was ~3.5k? seems viable as long as you can position yourself right(would work after a 2c jump cancel) since releasing the staff early and going with a normal blockstring is a counter to simple anti air, run through, and jump-away strategies. my main concern besides setting it up is whether it's punishable if chun is blocked; since the timing is a little tight, anyone familiar with the setup should be able to IB chun and/or staff2 easily if they predict your overhead.

I feel like I've seen jp players go for this (or similar) a bunch and fail.

Back again to the never ending subject of confirming staffless > staff when the staff is returning - it seems that chun > 5b[m] is possible? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TGJfgFYu84#t=1m23s

This player has several other really good hitconfirms of this sort in the 2 vids, here's hoping A-cho will upload more!

Also how does everyone else do 5b 2c itsuuA 6kote haku hatsu riichiA ippatsuA consistently? My friend asked me today and I couldn't give him a straight answer besides doing 6623D always.

[lunaris]

I feel like I've seen jp players go for this (or similar) a bunch and fail.

Back again to the never ending subject of confirming staffless > staff when the staff is returning - it seems that chun > 5b[m] is possible? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TGJfgFYu84#t=1m23s

This player has several other really good hitconfirms of this sort in the 2 vids, here's hoping A-cho will upload more!

Also how does everyone else do 5b 2c itsuuA 6kote haku hatsu riichiA ippatsuA consistently? My friend asked me today and I couldn't give him a straight answer besides doing 6623D always.

yeah, it's possible that you've seen players attempt it before, although the only talk i've heard about fuzzy guards i've read on the jbbs is related to kokushi/daisharin. i think the real strength of this fuzzy guard isn't the fuzzy guard itself but the fact that if the opponent knows it's coming, it's highly unlikely that they will sit there and take it, which would make them predictable. releasing the staff early will counter a lot of things the opponent may try to pull, depending on how soon they see it coming(if they react to staff activation it should be too late for most options).

and, perhaps i wasn't clear... i've said about 3 times so far in our discussion of staff return combos that 3c/6c>staff2>chun>5b[m] is by far the easiest way to combo on staff return, and the reason i haven't looked much into the jab method. it's just not possible with haku>chun because of different recovery on rekka chun. not trying to be rude here, just being emphatic since it's very good; not only does it do more damage, but it's easier than trying to use 2a. maybe i was forgetting to mark the 5b with [m] when i was talking about it in my earlier posts.

as to ippatsu, i don't know if you mean midscreen or corner, or if you mean the spacing on it or the general execution, but i think every aspect of the combo is simply a matter of practice and experience, although it's not especially difficult if you sit down and get a feel for delay timings by doing combos at various distances from the opponent. i'd say more than anything else it's necessary to be able to confirm how long you're going to have to delay haku>chun as you do 6kote(or soon after), which is mostly a matter of experience. i also use 6623 for 6kote every time except in the corner and after certain attacks(air throw>2b[m] comes to mind).

Lunaris- I don't think they're gonna shorten the length of her combos per say, I believe it has something to do wit the meter gain she gets off her combos and the fact that she can potentially get 4.8K off juss 5B 2C into rape and end wit super. The nerfs will probably be less meter gain, and some damage scale...Since the tech clock is no longer a problem, all the characters especially the the top 3 benefit from this. So a length of her combos being nerf is highly unlikely.

i agree that this is definitely the safest method of nerfing litchi while guaranteeing her viability(as i don't think she warrants a gigantic nerf) aside from straight up nerfing her attack damage(not proration), but i still wouldn't be surprised if they tried to shorten their length a little either as it is a common(universal?) consumer complaint. either way, i hope you're right as trying to change litchi's actual combo methods could easily have unforeseen consequences.

[ghost333]

hmn how do u combo from 6a or should i use an other overhead? or a low hit? and which low hit should i use?

[SIne]

2c into itsuu-a loop like in this posted vid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TGJfgFYu84#t=1m23s

[Blue Ipod Nano]

hey guys, ive just started looking at litchi like less than a day ago ( i dont even know all of her specials or staffless normals :p ) and i need some help!

im a scrub so bear with me, i have trouble doing: 5B 2C itsuuA 6Kote Haku Hatsu riichiA ippatsuA ippatsuB 2D

the first part of the combo where you do itsuuA then 6kote then haku is what im stuck on. it seems everytime i use 6kote then haku, it doesnt combo. is it because im doing 6kote->haku too slow? or is it because im doing 6kote after itsuuA too slow? (or something completely different?) =/

**also, what does LK mean when he says "use advance input" ? what is advance input?

[severin]

You're not doing the haku fast enough. 6kote is decently fast, so you're doing the haku input pretty much right after the 6kote. Advance input refers to a BB mechanic, in which if you hold a button down, it will repeat your input for 5 frames, making a lot of timing-specific stuff easier.

[DJHUOSHEN]

I'm starting to work on learning combos, so I've been recording clips of combos while I practice in my youtube channel. So far I have two grab combos, and the Fio standard with Fio's Koukushi Musou pressure reset. If anyone wants to request certain combos, please feel free to ask. I'll do my best to make it, on top of getting the chance to learn it.

[lunaris]

I'm starting to work on learning combos, so I've been recording clips of combos while I practice in my youtube channel. So far I have two grab combos, and the Fio standard with Fio's Koukushi Musou pressure reset. If anyone wants to request certain combos, please feel free to ask. I'll do my best to make it, on top of getting the chance to learn it.

some of the combos you're doing are a little suboptimal(sometimes by 400+ damage+meter). if you want i can tell you some better stuff(although looking back on it there aren't many combos yet). just as an example, the first combo you do in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Misiv-4xOnY could be:

5b>2c>itsuuA>6kote>haku>hatsu>riichiA>ippatsuA>7jc>j.d>j.c>dash>crouch barrier>2c[m]>[1 itsuuA rep]>4kote>3c>2d>8hj>j.c>j.c>6a[m]>tsubame>3c>kokushi (~4800)

may have slight character specificity which can be fixed by omitting 6a[m] at the end, or doing 3c>2d>9j>j.c>8jc>j.c>tsubame instead of using a double jump.

2 things i'm going to make note of regardless:

1. i'd advise not getting used to using 6c to do itsuu reps. due to same-move proration, it prevents you from using some higher-damage/easier enders(including the super ones if you plan your combo out poorly).

2. when doing itsuuC>jc>j.c>6kote>j.c>3c>kokushi, you want to be doing two 8 jumps, not a 9 jump(i believe i saw this in the vid i linked). someone correct me if i'm wrong, but this is generally essential in making it so that your opponent can't roll behind you. i am assuming the 4kote>kokushi was a mistake, if there's some reason for it please inform me.

it's good to have someone recording videos of the combos, especially since your recordings are fairly high quality. i'm not trying to discourage you.

[St1ckBuG]

Afaik doing 9jC dj8C should still position them so they can't roll behind you, but if they have a reversal you'll definitely get hit by it.

edit: LK posting.

2nd edit: my bad, misinterpreted what you actually meant.

[Lord Knight]

OK, I'm pretty sure now that 5b 5c 3c itsuuC jChun combo part is obsolete at this point.

Alternate combo parts:

5b 5c 3c itsuuC [d] dash jBC ]d[ airdash jBC 6c(1)

-This seems to be most reliable midscreen.

5b 5c 3c itsuuC [d] dash jC dj ]d[ falling jC dash 6c(1)

- Same combo part as one of the corner 3c hitconfirms, except you dash on landing rather than going straight into itsuuC. Used near corner/going into corner.

5b 5c 3c itsuuC [d] dash jC land ]d[ rising jBC staff2 dash jBC land~

- This is probably the true replacement for itsuuC > jChun. The only problem I personally had with the sjBC combo was that if you airdashed improperly, you were done. This starts off of normal jump so there's less room for error. If you're somewhat far away from the corner, you have to delay the first jC slightly. The second jC always must be done quickly, because the staff is returning.

Next thing to figure out is if we go to 3c combo, and choose the above, what should we do if we're really far from the corner? I have a couple of ideas that I want to test tomorrow, but if someone finds something good/easy, post here. I was personally thinking:

5b 5c 3c itsuuC [d] dash jC land ]d[ rising jBC staff2 dash jBC land itsuuC [d] rising jC ]d[ airdash jC 6C 6D daisharin

-Should definitely work seeing how late itsuuC rising jC works, and just advance input the airdash jC. It should also carry all the way into the corner.

Of course it's important to note that these combos are way more CT style than previous CS combos, as in you have to be very aware of where you are on the screen when you go into them.

EDIT: So I randomly went on GAMEacho youtube account and saw someone do it, more at 11

[lunaris]

snip

i can't remember the last time i used 5b 5c 3c itsuuC chun, so i agree on it being obsolete. the only additions i can make are:

5b 5c 3c(omit when possible) itsuuC [d] dash j.c ]d[ haku chun 6c(1) (the one i use from full to midscreen)

5b 5c 3c('') itsuuC [d] IAD j.c ]d[ staff1... (useful for when you're too far to hit with dash j.c after itsuuC)

5b 5c 3c('') itsuuC [d] dash j.b jc j.c staff1... ('', but easier)

Next thing to figure out is if we go to 3c combo, and choose the above, what should we do if we're really far from the corner? I have a couple of ideas that I want to test tomorrow, but if someone finds something good/easy, post here. I was personally thinking:

as a reminder, i'll mention that you can use an IAD j.b to put them into the corner if you are very far from it, but with the haku chun version of this combo they should end up in the corner no matter what anyways(and i think the haku chun version does more damage).

an example of a total full screen combo using what i've written above would be:

5b 5c 3c itsuuC [d] dash j.c ]d[ staff1 haku chun staff2 6c(1) itsuuA 4kote dash 3c 2d staff1 dash j.b j.c dash 6c 6d daisharin(kokushi ender also possible off of 6c(1)

this should take them all the way to the corner. you can do double haku chun with this as well, although i question whether it's advisable since the timing of the second haku chun may depend on the staff's distance from corner and isn't lenient.

as a final note, the 3c[m] IAD(crossup) j.b[m] combo is worth mentioning in that it has its advantages; if the opponent decides to burst after the crossup, then you're not put into the corner(and you are with other choices).

[Lord Knight]

Wow, I like that stuff a lot. I had problems doing itsuuC > [d] > iad j.C though.

[lunaris]

Wow, I like that stuff a lot. I had problems doing itsuuC > [d] > iad j.C though.

yeah... that can be difficult as sometimes it goes under the opponent. the only reason to use it is if the enemy is too far for dash j.c, and you can remedy that by only doing 1 hit of 5c[m], although it sacrifices about 150-200 damage and a small amount of meter. dash j.b>jc>j.c works as well closer to the corner, but if you use it in the full screen combo it makes it extremely difficult to end the combo(and 6c whiff is dangerous to say the least).

i'd say that if you include itsuuC combos in the guide you should make a note saying that it's generally safest to combo into itsuuC as fast as possible in all situations. if you can hit confirm it and you have the range, it's usually best to do 5b[m]>5c[m]>itsuuC or even 5b[m]>itsuuC(depending on the combo). for example, you're probably not going to be able to do a complete full screen combo with j.b[m]>j.c>5b>5c>3c>itsuuC due to proration, but you could do it with j.b[m]>j.c>5b>itsuuC, and this might not be intuitive for a player without a good amount of experience.

[DJHUOSHEN]

snip

I'm not discouraged at all. I realize I'm really, REALLY lacking CS experience. 6C is a lot easier for me to execute consistently right now, and that's really what I try for now since dropping combos is worse than just taking a less damaging one.

And yeah, it's a 9 jump instead of the 8 in the vid. I was having an easier time catching the falling C with a 9 over an 8. Again, lack of experience. If anything, being critical shows I still got work to do. Just as long as the "OMG WTF UR DOING RETARD" don't come, I got no problem with feedback.

On a side note, I'll work on some of the ItsuuC stuff tonight since I want to try it out over SJ Chun.

[Lord Knight]

Dash 2C is probably the easiest method to hit 2C, you should try that.

Also I know this will be a bit of a pain but we should get some damage tests done. I have a good idea of what are the best confirms right now, but it'd help to know damage and meter gain. Those combos above are definitely the upper end of ItsuuC combos, but when confirming a 5B > 5C string, we really should go into ItsuuB.

Also I was hella surprised at how much damage 3c[m] > iad jB combo does . It's almost as bad as someone getting hit by 2C. I knew about it before but I felt like it was unstable until I figured (also saw :/) people just hitconfirm spaced 3c's into it.

[lunaris]

I'm not discouraged at all. I realize I'm really, REALLY lacking CS experience. 6C is a lot easier for me to execute consistently right now, and that's really what I try for now since dropping combos is worse than just taking a less damaging one.

And yeah, it's a 9 jump instead of the 8 in the vid. I was having an easier time catching the falling C with a 9 over an 8. Again, lack of experience. If anything, being critical shows I still got work to do. Just as long as the "OMG WTF UR DOING RETARD" don't come, I got no problem with feedback.

On a side note, I'll work on some of the ItsuuC stuff tonight since I want to try it out over SJ Chun.

i understand your problems with difficulty. you should definitely note that in your videos if you are aware you're not doing optimal combos, however.

not sure if i stated this in my other post, but i'll do so clearly now, not just for you but for anyone reading who doesn't know:

which jump to use for which ender:

Daisharin ender: 9>8 if very close, 9>9 if farther away

Kokushi from ItsuuC: itsuuC>8j>j.c>6kote>j.c>3c

Kokushi from 3c: itsuuA>4kote>dash>3c>2d>8hj>double j.c>x(depends on proration)

Kokushi from 3c alternative: 2c>6c>3c>2d>8hj>double j.c>x(depends on proration)

following the above should save a lot of trouble in wondering why your combos are dropping sometimes.

Also I know this will be a bit of a pain but we should get some damage tests done. I have a good idea of what are the best confirms right now, but it'd help to know damage and meter gain. Those combos above are definitely the upper end of ItsuuC combos, but when confirming a 5B > 5C string, we really should go into ItsuuB.

i'll try to keep this simple, although it's kind of complicated and doesn't make up for solid testing.

itsuuB combos do slightly more damage than itsuuC combos in most situations(ItsuuB average: 3.6k, itsuuC average: 3.5k). when you can avoid having to use 6c twice early on in the combo, itsuuB combos do somewhere between 200 and 400 more damage than itsuuC combos(avg 4k).

you can avoid using 6c twice in two situations: either when you are in range to use itsuuB>3c, or when you are close enough to the corner to use dash>barrier>2c[m] after the ippatsu portion instead of using 6c.

itsuuC combos are always better in the corner for a variety of reasons. itsuuC can then easily combo into ippatsu, it doesn't have to use 6c or 3c early, etc. but, sometimes itsuuC won't reach and you have to use itsuuB>6c.

the only other things i'd like to note about it is that itsuuB combos are significantly more difficult than itsuuC combos for relatively little difference in reward, and itsuuB>3c is fairly proration specific(will break on ippatsu even if anything is added before 5b[m]). also, meter gain definitely does need testing.

and yeah, spaced 3c>iad>j.b is pretty beastly. works well against people who like to spam/space with backdashes(like most lamda players).

[DJHUOSHEN]

snip

Since it was a big deal, I've gone and noted that the combos posted are not the best. I posted damage and meter for viewing at least.

Also, your example posted above:

5b 5c 3c itsuuC [d] dash j.c ]d[ staff1 haku chun staff2 6c(1) itsuuA 4kote dash 3c 2d staff1 dash j.b j.c dash 6c 6d daisharin(kokushi ender also possible off of 6c(1)

Doesn't hit FULL full screen, but like 95% full screen. The staff2 on the second set barely misses on most the cast (though I'm sure on some it will nick them while they're down). I've posted both the success and the full screen shortly, but even with hitting the dashes and adding some delays on some moves here and there, I still can't get it.

Success:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtUgJkv_mxI

Failure:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpvFEL3KYbQ

Edit: Any examples of midscreen and corner ItsuuC you want me to throw out there?

Edit2: Because I am seriously listening to your suggestions, here's an improvement of 200 damage on the corner combo. Not your ideal, but getting there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alLolSYGJAI