[CS1] Hazama Gameplay Discusson

[Eclipse]

A frame trap is a gap in a pressure string that an opponent cant mash or jump out of, but is wide enough that an opponent might thing he has a chance to escape. This usually means a 4 frame gap (as the fastest poke in BB is 5) but it can be a bit wider when you take human reaction time into account. This is why you see hazama players do 5B,5B,5B or 5B,2A or 5B,dash2A as a pressure string. But really a frame trap can be done with any move so long as you leave enough of a gap o get the opponent to try and escape pressure. Frame traps lose to DP's and good guesses so don't get predictable.

Baiting is usually just doing nothing, but it refers to guessing how the opponent will escape pressure and react accordingly. If you've been spamming 5B,dash2A type pressure or doing alot of jump cancels, the opponent might try and DP, so instead of attacking you just block. If there is no DP go right back into 2A. This type of pressure is really about out smarting the opponent more than it is about testing his reactions. Also, you can bait anything from DP's to jumps (air grab/poke/air unblockable) to blocking (command grab).

I have to say, that really sounds like the type of pressure and mixup I could enjoy. My strategy has always been out witting my opponent as opposed to using good reaction time, etc. So, there's no chance for them to escape the frame trap... Why would you need to worry about being predictable with it, if it's always safe? Is it really impossible to mash or jump out of?

[FlyingVe]

I have to say, that really sounds like the type of pressure and mixup I could enjoy. My strategy has always been out witting my opponent as opposed to using good reaction time, etc. So, there's no chance for them to escape the frame trap... Why would you need to worry about being predictable with it, if it's always safe? Is it really impossible to mash or jump out of?

No frame trap is perfect. 5B>dash2A can't be mashed out of on reaction but if someone knows your going to do it they can will mash and poke you out of it. It's really fighting game 101, there is an answer to everything, and if your opponent knows what you will do, they will be prepared with that answer.

Also, I updated my last post with a link to the Primer of Mixups thread by Henkai. It's really good

[Eclipse]

No frame trap is perfect. 5B>dash2A can't be mashed out of on reaction but if someone knows your going to do it they can will mash and poke you out of it. It's really fighting game 101, there is an answer to everything, and if your opponent knows what you will do, they will be prepared with that answer.

Also, I updated my last post with a link to the Primer of Mixups thread by Henkai. It's really good

Thanks for the reference to that thread, I'll definitely check it out. And so it can be mashed out of if they anticipate it, but it's impossible to do on human reaction time. Sounds interesting.

[Klaige]

When I was talking about Level 1 and level two mixups, they are also often called 1st, 2nd, etc generation mixups.

Basically mixups that result from other mixups in a string or sequence of attacks go in generations. For example From 5B you can either go Low, High, or do a throw. These 3 mixup options are the 1st level (or first generation) that hazama has.

If blocking 5B and the subsequent high or low mixup were to lead to another mixup, that mixup would become the 2nd generation mixup. In Hazama's case he really lacks this sort of thing. he can create a frame trap, or repeat the same mixup, but it doesn't actually lead to another different mixup as a result.

Having only 1st generation mixups is a sign of a character that doesn't use mixup as their primary strength, just as I mentioned earlier, Hazama has mixups but he uses the ones he does have in conjunction with his hit and run, his range, and his punishment ability to be a solid character.

A character like Millia from Guilty Gear is a prime example of a chacter with 2nd and 3rd gen mixups. When she knocks you down and puts a disc on you, you are almost always forced to block not one, but two or more different mixups or guesses. Blocking the disc, then blocking an overhead, but her having advantage to throw another overhead, a crossup, or a throw creates the 2nd gen mixup.

It's not terribly important to know, and i probably over-complicated things by bringing it up, but since a couple people asked I felt compelled to give an explanation.

[FlyingVe]

Thanks for the reference to that thread, I'll definitely check it out. And so it can be mashed out of if they anticipate it, but it's impossible to do on human reaction time. Sounds interesting.

That specific trap can be mashed out of, some jumped, others beaten with other things. The point is to maintain pressure in a way that is risky for the opponent to escape. However, Hazama's pressure game still isn't very good. After a few (or one) pressure string it is often best to GTFO and go back to zoning with chains.

[Eclipse]

That specific trap can be mashed out of, some jumped, others beaten with other things. The point is to maintain pressure in a way that is risky for the opponent to escape. However, Hazama's pressure game still isn't very good. After a few (or one) pressure string it is often best to GTFO and go back to zoning with chains.

Valid point taken. I'll look over the mixup thread, but make sure that pressure isn't the main part of Hazama's game that I focus on. I've never been one for pressure anyways. Thanks for all the useful advice on the strategies to use with Hazama in an actual match.

[Wolf Pup TK]

After a few (or one) pressure string it is often best to GTFO and go back to zoning with chains.

On that note, 236D is a good move to end a blockstring with due to its range and +1 frame advantage. 6C also works if you're close enough because you just might end up getting a CH off it.

[lunaris]

snip

i disagree with you on one or two of your points if i properly understand what you are saying(correct me if i don't). i have a feeling i'm not following you somewhere, but i'll attempt to explain why i don't agree that hazama has only one layer/generation of mixups in his blockstrings.

if you say millia has multiple generation mixups because she can do a high/low twice in a row(or was the point that she can follow up a high/low with a crossup? i.e. two different types/broadening types of mixups rather than simple consecutive mixups), hazama can do this, although it's not as powerful as millia's.

it mostly lies in his 5b/2a>2b blockstring. hazama can do mixups from 2a itself, but if we're using 5b as the starting example, we've acknowledged that it has mixup potential. but if hazama chooses to do 2b in his 5b mixup, then he can create another mixup in a variety of ways: by linking into 5c, which allows him to jc for one of two different kinds of crossup attempts(depending on spacing) and also allows him to do a high/low with either 214d~a or 3c(or maybe 214d~c once they're used to seeing 214d~a), by chaining 2b into 6a/6b/3c, or cancelling 2b into jyasetsu/doing. i don't think he can effectively throw off of 5b>2b without simply waiting for its considerable recovery to end, but i suppose since i've mentioned 2b>5c>crossup that an empty jump>throw or air grab is worth mentioning.

if what you're saying relies on the mixups being unmashable, then yes, most of hazama's mixups are mashable(in fact 5b/2a>2b or 2a>throw are probably the only mixup options that aren't) if predicted, but he does maintain frame advantage on block(so long as they aren't instant blocked) as long as he doesn't go for 6a/6b or 214d~c.

i've probably misunderstood what you were saying, so please explain more if so. more discussion doesn't hurt when discussion is as infrequent as it is in the first place.

[Arifureta]

My contribution to the mixup/pressure discussion:

Though I wouldn't call it decent, his 5B > 3C > 214D~C/214D~A pressure is pretty intimidating. Of course, it's very easy to get hit out of the 214D~A with an A mash, but if your opponent catches on then you can go for the C version and into the long version of his BnB. And if he starts jumping, go for the 214D~B anti-air into the jyakou BnB.

Spacing's a big part of the pressure so 66 if you have to.

[FlyingVe]

My contribution to the mixup/pressure discussion:

Though I wouldn't call it decent, his 5B > 3C > 214D~C/214D~A pressure is pretty intimidating. Of course, it's very easy to get hit out of the 214D~A with an A mash, but if your opponent catches on then you can go for the C version and into the long version of his BnB. And if he starts jumping, go for the 214D~B anti-air into the jyakou BnB.

Spacing's a big part of the pressure so 66 if you have to.

3C is to Hazama what 5C is to Ragna. After 3C your pressure is basically over. The opponent will be very ready for 'mixup' via 214D. You can try to CH them with a delayed 236D, but if your 3C is blocked, GTFO, anything you do after won't really be worth the risk. If you must mixup using 214D (don't do it often) the at least do it at another point in your pressure string that isn't so obvious.

[DF2K]

Could 214D~D be used to make 3C a bit safer on block?

[FlyingVe]

Stance recovery is, at its fastest, the same as the SD (-6) on the 3C, so it wouldn't do anything but put you in a CH state. 3C is already pretty safe on it's own (mostly due to range and the threat of gattlings), but you can throw out 236D afterwards to try and make it even safer.

[Eclipse]

Stance recovery is, at its fastest, the same as the SD (-6) on the 3C, so it wouldn't do anything but put you in a CH state. 3C is already pretty safe on it's own (mostly due to range and the threat of gattlings), but you can throw out 236D afterwards to try and make it even safer.

I've noticed that a lot of people tend to overlook 236D, even I myself am guilty of never using it. I mean, it's a good tactic to use a random points in a blockstring, or to catch your opponent offguard. As we've all been saying, being unpredictable is key to using Hazama, so using some of his underrated moves can work to the player's favor.

The truth is, it's never going to do much on hit... But it's a good ending since it's quick and pushes you away from the opponent if they manage to block it. I still cross my fingers and hope that some day 236D (Jabaki) is somehow able to be incorporated into a combo. I remember back in my earlier Hazama days (not that the game's been out long at all) when I wanted to test CH Jabaki into Mizuchi Rekkazan. Still no combo potential, maybe the rebalancing can change that, we can only wait...

[kazukifafner]

Could 214D~D be used to make 3C a bit safer on block?

Sorry, no mist canceling allowed

As said, 236D is probably your safest 3C followup. Heck, it even puts you at +1 frame advantage. Not much use for continuing pressure, but gives you the ability to block before your opponent attacks.

But yeah, outside of a pressure-ender, it doesn't have a lot of use. It can be a decent poke, but only at around its max range, which is when you'd be too close to start chain zoning, and too far to poke with 2A. It can only be comboed off of on CH, and even then the damage would be very similar to just using a standard BnB.

[Arifureta]

Is there any use for 6B? I don't think I've ever used it intentionally (though input fail on Jayoku has led to many punishes ) since I don't see what's the point, but maybe I'm missing something?

[kazukifafner]

6B's only use is to create a basic mixup option against the opponent where the opponent has to guess if you're going for 6A or 6B. Still, it isn't really all that useful. You could just use a different mixup move as well, so that whole thing is pretty much only for messing with you're opponent.

In short, no it doesn't have much practical use.

[Wolf Pup TK]

Is there any use for 6B?

Yes:

input fail on Jayoku

When you play a troll, you gotta expect to get trolled back sometimes. This is Hazama's way of reminding us (Hazama mains) who the REAL troll is at the end of the day.

Seriously though, I haven't found much use for it. I guess maybe if you're playing against a 4-primer character you might be able to get some primer pressure... sort of... but not really. Other than occasionally throwing it out just because you can, I really don't know why you'd want to use it.

[Eclipse]

Found another combo video that some of you may be interested in. Unfortunately, it's not an entire Hazama combo video, but the three combos that are shown in the video are very practical. The last combo shows just how threatening Hazama can be with 100 heat in the corner. 7669 damage is nothing to scoff at. In particular, the second combo interested me the most, since I've never seen it done before.

Normally, you can only pull of one 6D on characters like Jin after Hazama's neutral throw. However, by jumping after the first 6D and using 9D in the air, he was able to land and use a Jakou (623D). If this works on all of the characters who you can only use one 6D on after a throw, it may be a bit of useful advice. This may even be a way to pull of a super from a forward throw on characters like Jin. If you guys are already familiar with this tactic, ignore this post. But I've yet to see anyone actually do this.

Here's the video link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bj8UlOkDqrA

First Combo - 2:17

Second Combo (Throw) - 3:05

Last Combo (7669) - 4:06

[PhantomX]

My contribution to the mixup/pressure discussion:

Though I wouldn't call it decent, his 5B > 3C > 214D~C/214D~A pressure is pretty intimidating. Of course, it's very easy to get hit out of the 214D~A with an A mash, but if your opponent catches on then you can go for the C version and into the long version of his BnB. And if he starts jumping, go for the 214D~B anti-air into the jyakou BnB.

Spacing's a big part of the pressure so 66 if you have to.

Buppa gets away with so much Ressenga it's ridiculous.

[Wolf Pup TK]

I only realized this now, but... I have NEVER seen or used Hazama's counter assault. Has anyone ever looked into this?

[eirei]

Why counter assault if you can IB Jayoku? :3

[PhantomX]

I was just wondering about that, actually, haha. Most people obviously prefer to spend the meter on Jayakou... but maybe our counter assault could have some decent/last ditch uses?

[Arifureta]

I don't think the counter assault is comboable at all, although if you're under crazy pressure (i.e. TK Nails Bang ) then maybe throwing one off isn't such a bad idea.

It looks like 5C, with 236D effects. If you did it to someone in a corner then it might be comboable actually, now that I think about it.

[PhantomX]

If they're in the corner and are pressuring you to the point that you have to CA... you're probably doing it wrong XD

[Arifureta]

^ inorite.

Here's an effective use of the counter assault:

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm10618999

Also, rapid cancel trolling. :V

Or at least to me it looks like he's trolling. Like, why would you waste 100 heat on a command grab combo.