GG:AC Official Tier List Thread

[EasyModeNub]

Sol just lacks the BS he used to have. Finally a Sol I only hate for VV. lol

[Tiamat]

I do think that the top players Sol players not being godly has a substantial effect but whatever. If he's "average" why is he in the second lowest tier? looks to me like "below average" from that list you got there. not to mention testament magically being at number 1, unless the list is influenced by lists that have not been posted.

[Spirit Juice]

C = average/mid-tier. I mean, even if Ogawa suddenly became the best Sol in Japan it wouldn't change the fact that Sol is just too average all around. It's a character design flaw right now, and no player can change that. For example, Ogawa's Eddie in Slash was pretty damn good and he still raped a lot of people, but that didn't change the fact that Eddie in Slash was C tier and quite weak overall. Think of tiers like this: S = too strong A = strong B = very good C = good/average/solid D = below average/lacking Also, Testament isn't "magically" number 1. It's been agreed for quite some time now that Testament and Eddie are the two top characters in Accent Core.

[Tiamat]

:8/:

[Spirit Juice]

...what?

[rtl42]

C = average/mid-tier. I mean, even if Ogawa suddenly became the best Sol in Japan it wouldn't change the fact that Sol is just too average all around. It's a character design flaw right now, and no player can change that.

maybe if he's good enough he'll make sol glitch out and become IK tier.

actually more seriously, i sorta see where Tiamat is coming from, wasn't Jam kinda B-ish in #R before kaqn came along and started playing her as his main? what's the difference in the argument there?

[Tiamat]

I wasn't gonna post anymore but since someone at least partly agreed I'll continue. I think Sol would move up a bit (not a ton but at least into the middle of the cast, not the lower half like he is now on the list anyway) if it weren't for the fact that IMO the top Sol players are significantly worse than many of the other characters' best players. I think they could take him a bit higher if a really smart player with good combo skills got really deep into GV combos and stuff (which give him very high damage for no meter off almost anything at least in theory). PC and Isa both lose a lot and I think a big part of it is them not the character. I'm not saying they are bad, they are very good but not OMG crazy good. Isa seems better than PC from what I've seen (PC just seems like kinda weak sauce) and he does better combos and pressure and stuff but he also does some pretty stupid stuff. I was watching the 23 on 23 matches among others, and Isa goes into Dragon Instal way too much, and almost(?) every time he does it he loses. I think mentally he's just not as strong as he could be, many of his other loses look highly avoidable to me if he was a bit more careful. Not to mention the whole issue where he's mostly using Eddie now (from what I can tell). If I were to make an anji comparison (not sure how many people will be aware of the better anji players) and I compared them to the best Sol players, I'd say that PC and Isa are roughly on Ang/maybe 2 or 3 others' level but none of them are as good as Domi. He's certainly ya step up from all the others. ang seems a lot like isa to me cause they are both rushy and flashy but they lack that good defense/smarts that pushes them to the next level. Another one I could make briefly is that Kaqn seems to beat on Isa a lot (at least in the youtube vids I looked at) and I'm pretty sure he's better than PC as well, but I think Kaqn is still a step down from some of the other players. As for Testament, I am well aware that he's been in top 2 with Eddie for a long time. I'm just curious why the list has him at number 1 now, when two of the lists have eddie as number 1 (and the other one he's at number 2). So by averaging the lists you get eddie as number 1. I was also under the impression it was pretty widely accepted that Eddie was the best character. If he only recently moved into number 1, I would ask if it had anything to do with Shonen raping damn near everyone. Cause it's not just his character I think he's a lot better than almost all the other players just in general. Eddie players have good ol' Ogawa though so I don't think there's a big gap in skill level between the top eddie and testament players. I'm not sure of the level of the other eddie/testament players relative to ogawa/shonen but I do think they are about the same level so fair comparisons can be made. In HnK Juda went up the tierlist largely because of the famous player "White" and all the crazy stuff he came up with (along with just being a really great player anyway), so it's not like it can't happen, though I understand Sol wouldn't be the same thing exactly by any means.

[Spirit Juice]

maybe if he's good enough he'll make sol glitch out and become IK tier.

actually more seriously, i sorta see where Tiamat is coming from, wasn't Jam kinda B-ish in #R before kaqn came along and started playing her as his main? what's the difference in the argument there?

Well, that's pretty hard to say since it took a while for the #R tier lists to settle. Robo-Ky used to be A rank, but fell to B rank even if Arisaka was an absolute god with him. Sharon was a beast with Baiken, but even he couldn't pull her up a rank in #R. N-O was ranked #1 in a-cho ranbats and could beat a lot of players, but Venom's rank didn't improve either. On the same note Ruu, who plays a D ranked character, and easily compete with Ogawa and Shounen, who both play S ranked characters, but Bridget is still considered D tier in most cases.

On second thought, Ogawa would probably make Sol S tier... only because Ogawa cheats.

I wasn't gonna post anymore but since someone at least partly agreed I'll continue. I think Sol would move up a bit (not a ton but at least into the middle of the cast, not the lower half like he is now on the list anyway) if it weren't for the fact that IMO the top Sol players are significantly worse than many of the other characters' best players. I think they could take him a bit higher if a really smart player with good combo skills got really deep into GV combos and stuff (which give him very high damage for no meter off almost anything at least in theory). PC and Isa both lose a lot and I think a big part of it is them not the character. I'm not saying they are bad, they are very good but not OMG crazy good. Isa seems better than PC from what I've seen (PC just seems like kinda weak sauce) and he does better combos and pressure and stuff but he does also some pretty stupid stuff. I was watching the 23 on 23 matches among others, and Isa goes into Dragon Instal way too much, and almost(?) every time he does it he loses. I think mentally he's just not as strong as he could be, many of his other loses look highly avoidable to me if he was a bit more careful. Not to mention the whole issue where he's mostly using Eddie now (from what I can tell).

If I were to make an anji comparison (not sure how many people will be aware of the better anji players) and I compared them to the best Sol players, I'd say that PC and Isa are roughly on Ang/maybe 2 or 3 others' level but none of them are as good as Domi. He's certainly ya step up from all the others. ang seems a lot like isa to me cause they are both rushy and flashy but they lack that good defense/smarts that pushes them to the next level.

As for Testament, I am well aware that he's been in top 2 with Eddie for a long time. I'm just curious why the list has him at number 1 now, when two of the lists have eddie as number 1 (and the other one he's at number 2). So by averaging the lists you get eddie as number 1. I was also under the impression it was pretty widely accepted that Eddie was the best character. If he only recently moved into number 1, I would ask if it had anything to do with Shonen raping damn near everyone. Cause it's not just his character I think he's a lot better than almost all the other players just in general.

Well, this is only one guy's opinion. If you remember previous tier lists by other players, S, A, and D tier were pretty consistent, but B and C tiers were shifted around quite a bit. At the most I'd put Sol as B rank, but since he doesn't really excel at anything I think C rank is more accurate for him.

A player's skill effecting the outcome of their character's rank on a tier list is subjective. Isa, P.C, and 012 are all top Sol players and some of Japan's best, but calling them significantly worse than say... Ogawa is probably a bit harsh. They've been playing Sol since #R (to my knowledge, maybe earlier), so if anyone was going to show Sol's theory potential it would be one of them.

Unfortunately, in the end it's all theory fighter vs. facts and game mechanics. Yes, in theory Sol can get clean hit GV combos off of anything for no meter, but in theory, he can also just VV through everything, be it pressure or pokes that give him trouble. The cold, hard fact is that Sol still suffers problems he has always had since XX: average pokes and average mix up. Nothing else he has really makes up for his averageness.

Other than this guy's opinion, I haven't seen Testament or Eddie ranked above each other in tier lists. All I see them listed as is S rank, but in no particular order. I don't think Shounen's level of play really makes that big of an impact here; he's been raping people since #R when Testament was low tier.

[Doomscyther]

In the end its all opinionated no matter who makes the tier list. (I don't care how much people bitch or say it isnt, apparently is retarded). I seen Koichi make Ino look S tier easy, just for instance. Even after fighting Kenji, I relized how good Anji truly is. Sol should be B tier simply from easy loop ( not to hate on him but he has good priority if ****USED RIGHT***, and he can do a high max damage). IMO

[Koichi>All]

So Sol loses because his top players aren't really good...that's kinda LoL. So Isa is ordinary with Sol then he changes to Eddie and suddenly becames good and won the first game chariot G3 ranbat, maybe it was lucky Idk, but it's something to think, he plays Sol since #R and has a vast knowledge of his character but he has to pick Eddie in order to win, even though he plays Eddie just for a few months I guess. Isa, P.C and 012 loses a lot in AC, but in #R and Slash they always had at least decent results, so they were good but not anymore?

[Champion]

At last year's 23v23 isa eliminated about 16 people with Ky. I think that says something about his skill level. ;P

[Spirit Juice]

Sol should be B tier simply from easy loop ( not to hate on him but he has good priority if ****USED RIGHT***, and he can do a high max damage). IMO

How easy the character's combos are never a factor in to their ranking on a tier list.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

I don't think it's fair to say that Sol's problem is that he is "average". He's got some pretty good damage, he doesn't have to spend Tension on most of his stronger combos which gives him more meter to play around with in the ground game and he has some of the best anti-air options in the game. I think the real problem has to do with the risk involved. Sol is not a very safe character. Most of his options involve him putting himself in danger of being countered pretty hard and the few safe options that he has don't give much reward. So playing him properly requires you to put yourself in danger by committing to options that have significant risks attached. If you wanted to use P.C as an example, he's actually a really good player, contrary to what Tiamat stated earlier. The problem is that he tries to play a nearly 100% safe Sol. A Sol played in this manner is just not that threatening, he cannot deal damage properly. It seems really stupid when you see it happen, but occasionally you're gonna have to go for that "random" full-screen Grand Viper or you'll have to do some dumb command grab setup that looks like it should never connect. You'll have to go for that psychic DP when someone swings on you in a frame trap. This is simply the nature of the character, you have to take risks in order to intimidate your opponent into a more passive role so that you can run your game on them, then continue to take risks on offense in order to punish them for simply trying to sit still and defend against your pressure. I think this character design is the core reason why even really good players can only take Sol so far. I mean, yes, theoretically the Sol players could be doing more with certain moves/combos to max out their damage, but even then there is risk involved. Again, Tiamat mentioned Grand Viper for maxing out combo damage. It's possible to always get huge Tensionless damage with this move (example, CH 2D -> unmashed GV clean hits on a lot of people), but it's still risky since most of these more advanced combos are either extremely character-specific or they are not hitconfirmable and thus still require you to commit (see CH 2D -> GV above). I don't think he's just some average, all-around character. He does have some severe deficiences fighting in certain situations (gets zoned really badly, hogs Tension in order to keep the pressure on, offense is extremely linear, etc). It's definitely not the player's fault because those players have been playing Sol and just in general have played GG for a very long time. This is just how I look at the character, though. I could very well be wrong. But my greatest success with Sol always comes when I try to play in this risky-yet-effective manner of trying to read my opponent in order to push them into these options. It's also how I get my worst losses, but I just see that as the character and his deficiency.

[Spirit Juice]

I had forgotten to take Sol's play style into account, but it seems as if it's not an issue when making tier lists (or at least in this guy's posts). I do agree it's one of his biggest faults, though.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Yeah, if that's the case then there's a real problem with these "rankings". Play style has to be taken into account. You can't play every character the same way.

[Tiamat]

I think that Isa's sol (lets ignore his eddie for now) was a lot better in Slash not just cause Sol was better but because I think both him and PC didn't adapt well to his changes in AC. This is also the first GG game with any notable changes in mechanics since XX with the addition of throw breaking, slashback, force breaks, wallstick, ground slide, etc. and it's possible that in some way they aren't adapting to these changes as well as other players either, not simply their character's changes. I agree with beast about Sol's problem of having to play pretty unsafe to get things done, and now that I think about it that really is PC's problem is he plays too safe. He's actually TOO careful. Safer characters don't need to find a balance so much but the character benefits a lot if you can find the ideal balance. I think they basically fell from grace so to speak. I'll make an example from another game that may not mean anything to a lot of you so feel free to ignore it. In SC2 Mick and RTD were pretty damn dominant in the US at least. SC3 comes along, did their characters get worse? Nah they actually got better (sophitia more debatable than Cass who is not really debatable). However, the players for whatever reason didn't adapt well to the changes either to their characters, the game system, or both. As a result, anytime past the early months of the game's release they really didn't win shit anymore even the tournaments they did go to. For a personal example I play Nightmare who fucking sucks in SC3 largely because of safety problems. One month last year I went to NJ playing super safe and I got totally owned and everyone thought I sucked. Next month I go again and I beat the best player in NY and the best player in NJ back to back in the tournament cause I found the balance. Player style is a huge factor. How about this...let me compare PC/Isa's Sols with some 5-5 or advantage matchups. Isn't HOS vs Sol a 5-5 matchup? Cause by looking at videos I would think Order Sol was at least 6-4 simply because the better order sols seem like they rape the better sols. How about an advantage matchup comparison...Sol has advantage on Anji (my guess is 6-4, it was 7-3 back in slash). Yet, I bet you if Domi (best anji) played any of those Sols he would beat them more than they beat him, or at the very least they would pull even (though I doubt this). either way that's not reflective of the matchup cause the Sol players aren't pulling their weight.

[Koichi>All]

Idk if this matchup chart has any value right now since it's from beggining of AC, but it was based on some jap bbs matchup chart:

http://kayin.pyoko.org/GuiltyGear/actiers.html

But well, here Sol vs Anji is 5-5 and Sol vs HOS is 4.5-5.5 HOS favor, but whatever.

The thing is you're saying that you think Sol players aren't really good based on what you think would happen if they played some other player like Domii or whatever, that's just speculate, I doubt anyone would say that KZO could beat Ogawa but he did, so this 'what if' thing don't mean anything.

I agree that Sol has a high risk gameplay and I think that's why he can't win a lot, because playing big risks can't go well every time, I guess that's why experienced players like P.C and 012 plays very carefully, cause taking risks everytime is kinda of a lucky game and high level players don't play like that in any game, there's some exceptions like Daigo but like I said he's an exception.

So imo Sol can't win a lot in high level because he don't do very well playing too careful neither taking too much risks, obvious not saying that Sol can't win, if the Sol player is superior than another char player he'll win, but if both players are at the same level his gameplay don't help much.

[Tiamat]

really smart with the dragon instals there Isa

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoGu8rUdaQw vs Kaqn

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJ3VLkx0Pl4 vs PC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYWc58xzCSI vs KZO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeshOkt3pXM&NR=1 vs KA2

does he really think he can turn the match around with that? if it's just his way of giving up he really shouldn't, it's never over till it's over. granted he did beat PC in the round where he used it but I don't think it was because of the dragon install, he better be happy he still had a burst or he woulda been toast. even if he did it thinking "oh i can just burst if it doesn't work" it would still be a stupid idea. PC went for a 6H GV combo for really high damage but it's easily bursted out of and that's the only reason Isa got away with it. If PC had just gone for something more easy to bait bursts with like a command grab combo, isa might have died for bursting and if he didn't he would get knocked down (if not dead) and PC would have had 50% meter to fuck him up with and isa had like none. I'm aware that this is all in hindsight but I'm trying to point out how stupid it is to use DI even without hindsight, just pointing out that even the match he won when he used it was a stupid idea. isa needs to just chill, he seems to do stupid stuff at the end of rounds that gets him killed when if he just backed off a bit he'd be ok. If he's up on life by a lot and they are almost dead, and he's not already rushing them down he doesn't have to, he should play safer like PC. i think his balance is almost just right but he needs to realize that near the end of rounds he doesn't have to keep going totally rushdown when their life is low cause it just gives them the opening they need for a comeback

he seems to have some problems with his corner jump in pressure after frc gunflames, somehow he manages to botch them a lot and get thrown, and I don't really know why he's using the H VV so much either. maybe he could fix his rough edges if he devoted himself to Sol more but he's too busy tier whoring

[Spirit Juice]

Koichi: that tier list/match up chart is ancient. I mean, look at Slayer, May, Millia, and Robo-Ky on that list. Since then they've moved up in tiers (the first three consistently A rank, with Robo usually B rank). I wouldn't use that as a reference at all.

Tiamat: From Slash to AC Sol got nerfed a lot of ways. In fact, his only two significant buffs were the way SW works and untechable time increased on his air throw. His play style is still the same, which tends to be his biggest fault here. All in all, it has to do with his play style, character design, and what other (better) characters gained over him.

On the topic of Sol's playstyle, it's something like damned if you do, damned if you don't. Sometimes you're going to need to take risks, but in Accent Core those risks can lead to you eating a +50% combo. It's unfortunate that some characters can play safer than others to get big damage while Sol has to take more risks than others, but that's just how the game is now. It's a design flaw with Sol right now, and no player can make up for that unless they guessed right 100% of the time (which leads to theory fighter).

While it may be true that the top three Sol players have fallen from grace (which would be a big coincidence that all three cannot adapt to AC), the same argument could be made that Sol was nerfed while a lot of other characters got better, which is why Sol may not win as much anymore. Either no one can adapt or Sol was nerfed/a lot of characters got better both lead to the same result: Sol seems a lot weaker in this version. Saying the players did not adapt is pretty subjective. Again, look at Ogawa in Slash; even he couldn't make up for Eddie's faults, despite being the best player in Japan.

I'm not sure how by watching those two videos would make anyone think OS vs SO was 6-4 for OS unless they were ignorant about the game and its characters. Judging a player based on two videos, one being a tournament and the other being a casual game (and he played well in both and both were close games, despite the oddly placed Dragon Installs), isn't really warranted. Those are only two of hundreds of matches he's played in AC, recorded or not, so judging him off of those doesn't make any sense.

The game has been out for almost a year now, and the game and its characters have evolved quite a bit. It's safe to say that some characters have reached their growth potential, Sol probably being one of them since he pretty much plays the same since XX with only his combos ever being changed. Remember when AC first came out? Sol was ranked something like S- tier, while other characters like Slayer, Millia, and May were ranked lower because their potential wasn't known just yet. As the game evolved, a lot of characters moved up and down the lists as their potential became known. Sol... well... he didn't really grow in potential, so he fell in the tier lists. Factoring in a player's skill being related to how good a character is is completely subjective and drifts into theory fighter territory.

[Tiamat]

There are more videos where Sols lose to Order Sols but I didn't post them, I was just posting the ones where Isa DIs like an idiot and two of them just so happened to be against HOS. If you look on the sidebar of the Kaqn vs Isa match you can see him lose 2 more times or so though. I really don't think Sol has reached his growth potential largely because of the players but that's just what I think.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

If HOS does have an advantage in this matchup, it's quite minor. Any match with KZO in it doesn't count cuz that dude has a fucked-up style of play.

[Vicioso]

does anyone have the final tier lists for slash and reload?

[Tiamat]

I'm not sure if this was the final list but here's the only one i got on me.

don't have a slash one

[Digital Watches]

For some reason I had this really cool idea just now:

An online Real-Time Tierlist that updates itself based on calculated feeds/updates on win records and such.

Maybe it's been done/sucked as an idea but...you can't get much cooler than info that updates itself.

Actually... the game itself has a matchup chart on it. But really tiers should only be determined by the best players of each character, since if you're in a room with say... Koichi and a bunch of American scrubs of every other character, you're going to end up with I-No on top, which is clearly not the case.

[POscrub]

The stats aren't saving? Make sure you hold down reset before turning off your PS2... While #R was at our arcade, Teyah had Eddie, Sol and Millia up there. I think I fed Eddie to a 9-1 advantage in Eddie vs. Potemkin. Hehehe. Sol was lower, because random people would pick Sol and drop Sol's ranking. Against the rarely played/randomly picked characters, like Chipp, I-no, etc. it was all like 9-1 :D.