GG:AC Official Tier List Thread

[AtTheGates]

chipp vs. eddie debate reminds me of chipp vs. dizzy in reload. back then, chipp already hat nice normals & other options against dizzy, but died easily to her high damage off of good okizeme. pretty much the same now against eddie. and whoever suggests you suck as chipp when you get hit by eddie (since you could run away!!! hah!): STFU. bad matchup for chipp, bad matchup for almost everyone else.

[Hellmonkey]

If your only option is to uppercut/move with lots of full-body invul (many characters lack this) or to reversal backdash (which gets hit anyway in most situations), I'm failing to see how that makes Eddie pressure this porous, "you're only stuck if you suck at defense" kind of thing.

Escaping from something like [k] 2hit without him attacking in between is common and not particularly hard to do, you just have to make sure you don't do it all of the time and especially make sure you use it if you notice he won't hit you before the second hit. We're talking about Chipp in particular, who has an uppercut with an FRC that is very usable, so obviously you should be taking advantage of that where it is neccessary, clearly making his pressure and unblockables easier to deal with or prevent. Yes, there are cases where he will always land damage against you with a 22D unblockable, and yes, if you make sure you block everything low it is 80% prorated, but situations do arise where you have options, and denying Eddie those combos cripples Eddie as he relies on those mixups and those unblockables to get his damage in, he doesn't have too much else besides basic poking with or 2H, which can be dealt with until he runs out of meter and goes into cripple mode or when he unsafely tries to unsummon/resummon for more gauge.

And is it absolutely necessary to pick up those escape options to deal with Eddie at some point? Of course. Does saying "oh I saw kaqn do it against Ogawa this one time" make it any more likely to happen against an Eddie player who mixes up his timings/setups? There are very few absolutely hopeless situations in any given match, there's always some kind of option- but against a good Eddie, it's picking between bad and awful.

Huh? With decent reaction timing, knowledge of the timing of Eddie's pressure/combos/unblockables, and some execution you can absolutely apply the limited options you have while blocking or after being knocked down. I don't see how it's picking between bad and awful if you recognize times that he doesn't throw in moves in between [k], or when he pauses to grab, or when he does 6K too late, or when he sets the puddle a little too late, some of which are bound to happen sometime- when you escape it should be on reaction, the rest of the time you should be blocking (he only has so much eddie meter..) or minimizing damage from unblockables (by blocking [d] first, blocking the drill for drill FRC iad)

For every time you guess correctly or execute your escape tactic, there's another time where Eddie baits it, or catches you asleep, or just blows meter to guarantee his setup.

Chipp should rarely get into those situations in the first place, and if you aren't being totally predictable and simply escape things on reaction, Eddie's bait options will usually lose him his pressure and burn one or both of his meters.

And then there's all the qualifiers like "if Eddie doesn't place/time his puddle/drill/etc. correctly" which is just a more nuanced way of saying "if Eddie screws up." What if Eddie doesn't screw up? I will say that even a really technically sound Eddie will make those kinds of mistakes every few rounds or so. But if they're only making that kind of mistake every like... 5-6 rounds or so, and you're in a tournament situation...

You obviously have absolutely no idea about this particular subject, because to time and place some of his unblockables, or to do some of his pressure strings with as few holes as possible is extremely hard. I blocked or lowered damage of most of Ogawa's unblockables when I played against him in Japan, I think it's safe to call him technically sound. Once you actually know Eddie's timing and options, you will notice many more holes.

I realize that the current top Eddies in the States are noted more for smarts or the ability to fix technical mistakes than for their ability to not make technical mistakes (which are probably more important skills in a tournament setting anyhow) but saying "I saw a video of kaqn getting out of Ogawa's setup this one time" is a whole lot different from getting out of Ogawa's setups yourself. It's also great to not mention all the other matches where kaqn got raped for getting touched once, or completely failed to escape an unblockable.

Ogawa is a BETTER PLAYER than Kaqn. Can you honestly watch all of those matches between them and say that Kaqn is only losing because of Eddie's stuff being too hard to escape? What do you propose, that Eddie shouldn't be able to have "inescapable" damage? Without that, he would be low tier in this game. With it, he is S by a small margin. When he NEEDS to reset his combos with knockdowns into unblockables, which often depend on eddie meter and/or tension, to compete with the damage from other character's combos which may not even require meter (see: Jam, Potemkin, Slayer..), I fail to see why you are complaining about this specifically. Let's not bothering mentioning that Eddie is designed to have a broken offense and a weak defense.

Yes, Eddie is one of the best characters in the game. He has excellent pressure and ability to control a match once he gets ahead, no doubt. To say that someone, especially playing a character like Chipp who has more options than most other characters to escape the things Eddie relies on for damage, who also has more ways to deal with his general poking than most, loses once he starts blocking is absolutely absurd.

[reaVer]

very long story

If your only option is an uppercut or some other invincible move... yeah, that's true, but it's not your only option if you were actually guarding. And like you said, you guard 95% of his mixups, so timing that jump guard shouldn't be too hard on you.

So from what I deduce in the second paragraph, you pretty much said that Ogawa is a failure at mixing up his unblockable timing... When the opponent is already guarding, he'll guard that unblockable, no matter whether it's kaqn, KZO, FAB, name it. In japan EVERYONE jump guards that thing without effort.

As for the baiting, yeah, you could get baited, as with anything else any moment in any match in pretty much every game. But dealing with that is real defense. In other words, you gotta mixup in defense too, this varying from FD/IB to SV or backdash.

I didn't say "I saw a video" I said kaqn and KZO do it, use your eyes when reading. And kaqn got owned yeah, I don't care, he didn't lose to the unblockables, in my opinion he had some major flaws in his game against Eddie that KZO didn't have. In any case, unblockables don't have anything to do with it.

ATG: noone here suggested that you suck with Chipp if you get hit by Eddie, but you got to admit that that risk is slightly lower then say OS getting hit or Jam. The range of Chipp's normals is pretty sick so he can stay sort of safe for a certain amount of time. Even if he gets hit from that range he has less risk of getting a fully converted combo. You even used this against xenophobian in the for fun team tourney in Stuttgart:P

[Fan Boy]

Sorry to bother you fellows, with your very very technical and deep arguments, but can I ask somethin'? What happened to the OP? It's not been updated with info. : (

[Chojin]

Ogawa is a BETTER PLAYER than Kaqn.

I agree completely. I remember in Slash when Ogawa was kicking the piss out of everybody and winning all of the tournaments because he is clearly a better player than everybody out there.

It was pretty awesome.

[Koichi>All]

wich tournaments he won in Slash? or that's just sarcasm?

[Tiamat]

he's being incredibly sarcastic

What happened to the OP? It's not been updated with info. : (

i kno rite

my new list for anji is a lot better, the old one is mostly just slash/ac comparisons

[PozerWolf]

Wow... the logic behind the Eddie vs Chipp logic is AMAZING.

Seriously, this site is just filled with smart people!!! har har har

[Greed]

Wow... the logic behind the Eddie vs Chipp logic is AMAZING.

Seriously, this site is just filled with smart people!!! har har har

And you win first prize, Captain Troll.

[Wirya]

IMO, in AC, Eddie is not a bad matchup for Chipp. You can't say that Chipp loses to Eddie just because 1 unblockable kills Chipp. It's just like saying that Slayer is a bad matchup for Testament because 1 CH Dead On Time kills Testament.

[Lil Majin]

And you win first prize, Captain Troll.

definitely.

Chipp vs Eddie is 5-5

Lil Eddie out in the open isn't hard to get around at all. His great mobility, if used wisely, helps him get around lil eddie and eddie together. Vs Chipp, Eddie has to do unblockables on wakeup almost everytime. he has a DP to escape or reduce the damage of 22D unblock. Whenever u gain the offense, it's very hard for Eddie to escape because NONE of his normals beat 5K and he has no shoryu nor evasive move to stop Chipp's onslaught of attacks except for overdrive (which isn't very reliable up close). If Eddie blocks a simple guard string then gets hit, then he's gonna g'teed lose over 40% life + a mixup on wakeup.

However, if Eddie lands a knockdown on Chipp, the results are tragic, but not fatal.

[Mr. Mamation]

Wow... the logic behind the Eddie vs Chipp logic is AMAZING.

Seriously, this site is just filled with smart people!!! har har har

#1 SMART PERSON EVAR

[JackG]

I agree completely. I remember in Slash when Ogawa was kicking the piss out of everybody and winning all of the tournaments because he is clearly a better player than everybody out there.

It was pretty awesome.

I thought that was more from having epilepsy versus being bad because Eddie was low tier, but correct me if I'm wrong.

[FlashMetroid]

I agree completely. I remember in Slash when Ogawa was kicking the piss out of everybody and winning all of the tournaments because he is clearly a better player than everybody out there.

Whos won 2 out of 4 sbos by himself basically?

About the discussion thats going on right now its fucking ridiculous a simple back dash can get you out of eddies pressure for free it happens all the time

Also im shocked that out of all the people on dustloop that I would expect to say such retarded things about eddie never would I have thought it would be CrimsonDisaster the king of knowledge dust loop extraordinaire

Dude shut the hell up after reading the most recent post from you in this thread im seriously convinced you just flat out have no idea what your talking about and I think you should just quit GG

[AtTheGates]

ogawa considers eddie chipp a 6:4 for eddie, btw, if i remember the complete matchup list correctly that was in one of the last tougeki damashiis. he considers most other matchups a 6:4, by the way. vs. baiken i think it was 5,5 to 4,5 and vs. millia was either 5:5 or even a slightly bad matchup 4,5:5,5. (hair pin, air movement etc.).

[Hellmonkey]

Chipp's backdash can be fairly easily punished by a later [k] so he has to be careful when he uses it- but it is definitely one of his options. The point is that he has a bunch of options (having quick/high jump, fast moves, srk) to deal with pressure along with movement options and moves that can deal with Eddie's general poking game with little eddie in general. This is not to say that he won't ever get hit, nor to say that it's easy for him to escape, but a good enough player CAN deal with it. As for whoever made the comment about Ogawa in Slash, he didn't see to play much at all back then (possibly due to his illness), and he certain didn't play bad even when working with the trashy character Eddie was then.

[Spirit Juice]

ogawa considers eddie chipp a 6:4 for eddie, btw, if i remember the complete matchup list correctly that was in one of the last tougeki damashiis. he considers most other matchups a 6:4, by the way.

vs. baiken i think it was 5,5 to 4,5 and vs. millia was either 5:5 or even a slightly bad matchup 4,5:5,5. (hair pin, air movement etc.).

Sometimes top plays with top tier characters will do stuff like that. ^_^; Kubo, for example, made a match up chart for Sion, and he listed practically her match ups as 8-2 or 7-3 in her favor.

[vegta12]

do Ino psoscrub when u can please

[koogy]

I-no will be like d for everything

[POscrub]

Jam:

• Max damage S: FB Puffball, 6HS + followup H loop, powered up Ryuujin, her main combos are full of moves that have high dizzy multipliers.
• Average damage A: Grounded 6H loop is a life drainer, wall combos don't require meter.
• Pokes C: Her pokes do their job well, but they still lack reach. Perhaps the fact FB puffball makes opponents scared to do stuff should be taken into account as well?.
• Pressure/Lockdown B: 2P, 5K, 2S, 6H, and more are really good, but are weak to FD because of their short range
• Mixup C: 5D, j. 2K RC, 5K, Choujin hijinks are all really effective, but again hampered by low reach. Jam doesn't get that much damage off her throw, except in the corner
• Okizeme B: Kenroukaku crossup [Falling air DP], Choujin hijinks, The Gacho special [1 hit 2HS in the corner -> Bakushuu -> Choujin 50/50 crossup, see Jam forum], 2P and j. HS fake outs aren't bad either, as the previous two options [Choujin/Gacho] are weak to reversals that cover a lot of area (won't whiff), and the Gacho special requires a special setup, so these [2P/j.H] are useful too.
• Against ground D: Pretty much air Gekirin and j. 2K. Jam doesn't really have many jumping moves with good downwards priority.
• Against air: Hochifu (parry) alone would probably be enough to rate an A, she also has an invincible DP to boot.
• Breaking out of pressure: IB -> Parry is a powerful tool, but is both difficult to input correctly, plus situation specific.
• Defense: Worse than average.
• In general B: Jam is really quick and mobile, plus the opponent must always be wary of the threat of Puffball. If they try to run away, charging up (Asanagi no Kokyuu) is always an option, but again, Jam loses points for low reach here.
• Overall Rank A: Jam's lack of reach is what keeps her out of the S category, she's a lot less stable compared to the other S tier characters, so she doesn't make the cut.
• Good matchups Dizzy: Hey Dizzy, why are you dizzy already? It's not easy for Jam to work her way in through Dizzy's zoning, so once you're in, make it count.
• Bad Matchup Slayer: ...Make the bad man stop...

I-no:

• Average Damage B-: Combos that end with guaranteed knockdowns give up a fair amount of damage.
• Max damage A: Genkai Fortissimo (air super) > full combo does a fair chunk.
• Pokes D+: Pretty much all have lousy recovery. Besides the green note, pokes aren't all that easy to use (function specific).
• Breaking out of pressure D: Super Ha(guessing it's Madogawa Desperate?) is great, but lacks throw invincibility, so her ability to break out of pressure ranks among the worst in the game.
• Mixup S: She lost falling Chemical Love, but a connected note gives you time for so many options. Definitely one of the best mixups.
• Pressure/Lockdown D: Weak, moves aren't great at stuffing mashers nor good for lockdown, and if she has no meter, she has NO pressure/lockdown options.
• Okizeme S: Easily S tier, one of the top 3 Oki characters in GG.
• Against ground C-: Because Dives (Sultry performance) have weak priority, j. HS is her mainstay. Nothing really worth special mention.
• Against air D: 5P is nothing special, and 6P has large recovery + followups are hard/not reliable. Definitely weak here.
• Defense D: Takes more damage than usual, and to add insult to injury, I-no has a big hitbox when hit.
• In general D+: Her Hover Dash (dash goes airborne) limits her mobility somewhat plus she's not good at controlling space.
• Overall rank: D
• Good matchup Dizzy: Dizzy is horrible at escaping I-no's pressure, and Dizzy is easy to combo. Next best matchup would probably be Johnny.
• Bad matchup May: Somewhere between "I hate this matchup" and "IMPOSSIBLE"

Greed:

Thanks for helping out. Any and all help is appreciated.

Hellmonkey:

Ditto. Yeah, I couldn't come up with a good word to describe 立ち回り. Help :P. As for why Bacon's counters are included in the category, it's because Bacon can counter back a lot of pokes, or characters that say rely on throwing out something that leaves you in blockstun, then follow it up, she can counter through that. Relying on jumpins to get in, if they throw it out high, counter in the face. Can't counter everything for sure, but at counters make the other guy think a bit, pares down their offensive options.

[vegta12]

Order-sol is also up there in matches i hate to fight

[GreasyGyro718]

Where can I download the translator you guys got. I'd like to help translate some of this stuff too.

[BagLunch]

Hellmonkey:

Ditto. Yeah, I couldn't come up with a good word to describe 立ち回り. Help :P. As for why Bacon's counters are included in the category, it's because Bacon can counter back a lot of pokes, or characters that say rely on throwing out something that leaves you in blockstun, then follow it up, she can counter through that. Relying on jumpins to get in, if they throw it out high, counter in the face. Can't counter everything for sure, but at counters make the other guy think a bit, pares down their offensive options.

By that description, a word that contains much of that meaning is "deterrance".

+1 for Faust, even though I already know the horrible lies it contains.

[POscrub]

After installing Japanese language pack (so you can see the characters).

Firefox plugin:

Rikaichan is your friend.

http://www.polarcloud.com/rikaichan

On the web:

http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/wwwjdic.html

Translate words in Japanese Text

Search for words in the dictionary

Dictionary descriptions can be off sometimes, so it helps sometimes to take a look at how other people have translated the same word. Other than that, it's filling in the blanks between the dictionary words. To be honest, I cheat a lot, I generally have an expectation of what's going to be said, so plenty of leaps of logic, and possible errors. But eh, best effort right?

[Greed]

Greed:

Thanks for helping out. Any and all help is appreciated.

Hellmonkey:

Ditto. Yeah, I couldn't come up with a good word to describe 立ち回り. Help :P.

Np. I've got finals tmrw and day after, but I'll do some more after that.

As for 立ち回り, maybe "The brawl"? Or some such.

I'm half-japanese, but I don't know gamer/net japanese at all =/ It took me like two minutes just to figure out what TG was supposed to mean -_-