GG:AC Official Tier List Thread

[Spirit Juice]

I'm pretty sure Kugler has died and completely forgotten about this thread, including what its original purpose was.

EDIT: I'm render

[Van Buren]

Will the front page tiers be updated maybe?

[Tiamat]

Anji Mito

• Bad matchups Axl, May: Axl because he zones too well, May because she just flat out outdamages Anji

Personally I find it kinda odd that it says May is a bad matchup because of outdamaging him, cause that could be said for lots of characters. slayer, potemkin, jam, and sol certainly outdamage him significantly just to name a few

Anji Mito

• Average Damage B+: 25% tension for 40% damage regardless of position on screen.
• Max Damage C+: Pretty much the same as his average damage. Putting in more tension doesn't raise damage much.

Sol

• Average damage B: Combos involving CL Sidewinders can do around 40-50%, Grand Viper leads into an air combo for no tension. More opportunities to land air combos.
• Max damage C: Not even taking into account forced proration, CL Sidewinder loop does about 60%.

typo with the letter ranks? :8/:

[TGS]

Will the front page tiers be updated maybe?

Most likely a new thread will be started once all the character's info has been translated.

[POscrub]

Tiamat: Possibly. Here's another explanation I like. For the average damage: Anji doesn't really have a problem chaining into something that ends with S Fuujin FB Rin -> air combo. I think that's what the 40% damage for 25% tension is referring to. Pretty much any hit converts into that. Sol, on the other hand, if he does get the CL sidewinder loop, great, 40-50%. But do all of Sol's combos end up in CL sidewinder loop? Unfortunately no. Now, I'm not a Sol player by any means, but you do have to launch them to get them into SW loop. This means either 2D xx BR (RC, so costs 50%, sometimes requires running momentum), Gunflame FRC which doesn't combo off any non-CH, Grand Viper is distance/setup dependent (I think? Or people would be using it more.). I look at it this way. Say your opponent absolutely does not want to get grabbed, and doesn't want to give up the CH. So toss out Wild Throw and comboing off GF FRC for now. If your opponent gets caught flinching (attempted backdash, FD jump, any defensive runaway option), how hard can you combo them? Sometimes I think, the best Sol can do is just knock them down with 2D, and try to work an Oki, at poke range, you can do f.S, 5HS and nothing will combo. 6P is corner specific, so yeah. Shrugs, a bit of a weird comparison, but I like to compare Sol combos to Potemkin combos. Like up close, anything into Potemkin 2H (5K,2S, 2H) will result in huge pain. You could even say, wow, Potemkin can GATLING into 2H with 2S hit confirm in between? Broke good. Problem is, you have to be at point blank or close to it, for this gatling to work, most of your normal opportunities you pretty much to settle for gatling into sweep. It's pretty analogous to landing Sol 5H/2H Grand Viper combos. Or if you wanted to talk about other games, CvS2 Geese st. short, cr. fierce Jaieken. Compared to say Iori's Rekka's. Jaieken may do more damage if you look at only the numbers, but most of the time you'll be settling for cr. jab jab RH. Compared to Iori who can pretty much Rekka off anything he pleases, cr. shorts, st. jab -> st. Fierce, etc, and you don't have to be as careful about hit confirm. But I digress. Continuing off the Sol example above, although this is much less of a problem in AC, in the older games, if your opponent absolutely did not want to be thrown by Pot, sometimes your best option was to 6H their backdash, decent damage, but nothing close to the monstrous potential from PB (big damage + sets them up perfectly for more pain), 6H also shoves them out to full screen, so you have to work your way in all over again. Shrugs. I always found Potemkin had trouble using his tension in the older games, sure you could use it to reset pressure / random poke like Hammerfall FRC, but you couldn't really use that extra tension to convert a random gatling into big damage, like some other characters can. As for maximum damage, the coment reads that Sol's SW loop does at most 60%, without taking into account damage scaling. So the average of max damages will probably be closer to 50% or so, or something. I'm guessing the non proarated combo they're thinking of is 2D xx BR RC or VV RC into Sidewinder loop. That does about 60% on most if I'm not mistaken? Wild throw into Sidewinder loop does only about 40% due to forced prorate. Any combo starting off 2K isn't good (but why should that count in max damage and not average? Just trying to make some sense out of the insensible here :P. Quite a few other characters got docked marks for having too much forced prorate, and high GB- moves)

[Tiamat]

Anji does have problems getting good damage from a low move without a counterhit+25% meter or corner+50% against 5 characters though, which is pretty annoying. No low combos on heavies without those conditions. I see what you're coming from that not everything goes into big damage for no meter. Sol's generally not gonna get that off of his longer range normals like fS/2S/2D normal hit. 5K doesn't have a ton of range but it's still a highly versatile move and is easily hit confirmable into 2H GV, as is 2K (though this suffers from bad prorate, it's still more than almost any other character gets off a 2K normal hit for no meter as far as I know). 5K is anti air, you can dash into it for a punisher, and generally just hit ppl out of stuff for being really fast. I don't think counterhits and the command grab should be taken out of the equation cause everyone eats those, though some much less than others. command grab's prorate does decrease the damage but even minor guard build can increase the damage significantly. a jump in with jSH (blocked) into command grab, into clean sidewinder x 4, BR knockdown does about 60% on anji for no meter, not to mention he gains a tremendous amount of meter during these combos. combos from CH 2D for 25% meter do about 70% minimum, and if their guard is up things get really nasty. The average damage I can understand more than the maximum damage. Anji combos never really do over 45% damage without guard meter build on a character with an average defense rating, and he needs 25% meter for that. His force break Rin has god awful prorate on it which is why it's hard to get extra damage on his combos. Sol on the other hand can get about 50% from a simple 5K, and I would certainly include counterhit damage as a factor, in which case we're talking 70% combos easily. Anji's damage really doesn't go up much from coutnerhits at all. his most common one is probably CH 2S which does exactly as much as he'd get for hitting a 5S (well about 2pts whatever). And there's the whole meter issue to consider. Anji's damage without 25% meter is utterly laughable unless he's at the perfect distance from the wall. maybe 15% damage tops and it has to be from a 5K/5S to get even that much? pretty shitty I think. also because he's nearly always forced to use his force break in combos it prevents him from gaining any meter for the majority of the combo, so he has to burn a lot of it on combos and doesn't produce as much either because he's always getting a penalty for using tension near the start of combos. Sol can sidewinder off a 5K/command grab/2K for no meter cost and he's got about 35% meter all the sudden that he can use for an frc gunflame, fafnir, VV/GV RCs, or a 70% life combo if he happens to hit a CH 2D. Then there's problems of guard meter build affecting combo damage, and since arc systems hates anji and made his 5S do no guard build, his damage is pretty nerfed.

[Spirit Juice]

I don't think guard guage damage combos are taken into account in max damage combos unless the character can do it without much effort (i.e. Venom). Unfortunately, Sol's guard guage build up in AC was severely nerfed now that GF doesn't build guard meter. It's difficult for Sol to build up guard meter without GF FRC, and even when he has meter to burn GF FRC on, he has to limit his options to attacks that won't push him too far from the opponent so they can't jump away from GF FRC.

[reaVer]

You won't be building guard against decent players anyways, so that doesn't matter and shouldn't be included in damage equations. POScrub: if someone flinches with some defensive movement you should fafnir them, goes into SW loop and adds a clean hit if you timed it right on the jump/backdash. 6P also works midscreen, but Sol has to be close or it has to be CH. Converting damage isn't the biggest problem, any Sol player will have to deal with the problem that his attacks are easy to defend against. Most of his overheads are easy to guard, his setups are usually from standing and lows, and worst of all, he works on a one shot basis, he has to cancel into something to cover his ass which most other characters don't have to do. There's also no such thing as tossing out WT, if your opponent doesn't want to get thrown that's his problem. Nothing really prevents you from putting down a GF FRC to move next to them. If there is something to tick you out of GF in that range and it comes from behind, forget the GF and run in, if you know your opponent is gonna try and poke you asap you could try stuffing with 5H IAD.S-D CLSW. If the opponent spams 2P or something alike you can setup a frametrap and 6P them or VV (RC) them, if the opponent does some high move you get a free GV. And if the opponent doesn't do all of that it's your job to keep them into the first corner they go waiting for them to guard. Thing with Sol is, if you count out the WT, you count out 90% of his game, as the opponent then just has to block win.

[Tiamat]

Yeah the guard meter affecting damage is more iffy I just wanted to give an example of a short blockstring that raises guard a lot (like jSH) into wild throw to point out that during match play it's not terribly difficult to raise their guard meter at least a bit. But yeah...I guess we can try to ignore guard meter raising even though it affects things in match play. I just think it's beyond ridiculous to rate Anji's max damage higher than Sol's, even if it's only a C+ compared to a C. sol can get about 70% life combos for no guard jack from a CH 2D, CH riot stamp (yeah i know it doens't happen much), gunflame counterhit, fafnir clean hit/coutnerhit. Yeah I admit that's lot of counterhits but I think it should still count toward his max damage, espeically when it's not that uncommon to hit a counterhit 2D. If he does a BR RC or something he gets maybe 60%. Anji has to struggle to even get 50% against characters with average defense modifiers no matter how much meter he burns or what the starter was cause of his damn force break scaling keeping his combo damage down. I don't see how you could even debate Anji having higher max damage than Sol.

[reaVer]

Yeah the guard meter affecting damage is more iffy I just wanted to give an example of a short blockstring that raises guard a lot (like jSH) into wild throw to point out that during match play it's not terribly difficult to raise their guard meter at least a bit. But yeah...I guess we can try to ignore guard meter raising even though it affects things in match play.

Guard meter raising doesn't affect matchplay, that's what I just said.

[Tiamat]

edit: never mind, not worth it

[koogy]

Guard meter raising doesn't affect matchplay, that's what I just said.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCIb7Yv5wpo

WRONG

[reaVer]

lol, and of course you can pick the one example where it actually did work:P But that's 1. Chipp and 2. A cheap burst. Though normally players don't spend much time in guard lock, that chipp didn't faultless defend nor impact guard any of the attacks which isn't the smartest thing to do against Sol.

[PozerWolf]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCIb7Yv5wpo

WRONG

Obviously he isn't talking about guilty gear.

I mean, if he was that would be just beyond silly. I'm sure he was talking about 3rd strike or something... right? Right...? :8/:

[Darkhonor90]

Guard meter raising doesn't affect matchplay, that's what I just said.

Ya I know right? Why even have guard meter in the game? They should just take it out because it's useless:psyduck:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgN0NRHGYh4

[unsmart]

Without even clicking the link, I'm going to guess it's the GGXX #R acho vid, PC's Sol vs. some Chipp where he does 100% dust loop after guard build + CH 2D.

Edit: Yep. I'd forgotten it was MDR's Chipp.

lol, and of course you can pick the one example where it actually did work:P But that's 1. Chipp and 2. A cheap burst. Though normally players don't spend much time in guard lock, that chipp didn't faultless defend nor impact guard any of the attacks which isn't the smartest thing to do against Sol.

He didn't have tension :8/: . You could see his FD flicker in and out and the little bit he managed to gain at the end was from IB on the last hit before CH.

[reaVer]

Ya I know right? Why even have guard meter in the game? They should just take it out because it's useless:psyduck:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgN0NRHGYh4

Jam always does that, guard bar plays no role in that.

Edit: there's also a vid where kaqn 100%s a Sol player with Jam.

[722]

So let's review: Guard gauge doesn't have any effect on high-level play, except in all those situations where it does. Which can be written off because gold bursts are cheap. With that out of the way... Has anyone translated Bridget yet? I haven't seen it, but I don't want to go through the work if someone else already did.

[Rift]

Some characters' gameplay involves the guard bar...like Venom for example? One of the few (only?) ways Venom can get over 50% damage outside of the corner is with flashing guard bar, which is not that uncommon for him, considering how easy it is to do blockstring into Dark Angel, or a gattling into SA FRC into pressure/mixup. Yes I would say setting up 70-80% damage dust combos has an effect on gameplay. A character's ability to raise the guardbar does impact their ability to deal damage, so I wouldn't say it's not important. It's not as crucial as alot of other things, but it's far from pointless. Dark Angel is most likely the best OD in the game, one of the few worthwhile. Its main perks are that it pushes the enemy into the corner in most cases, it deals significant damage through guard, or saps almost the same tension it cost to use from the enemy if they FD it, and it leaves venom in an oportunity to mixup/pressure. And the flashing guardbar makes the combo resulting from that mixup extremely dangerous, making dark angel an extremely good move. Not to mention the fact that often people will get anxious or nervous if they have full guard bar, which makes them easier to predict. Putting your opponent in that situation is definitely beneficial to you.

[Spirit Juice]

Like I said, only Venom has an easy time building up guard bar. Mostly everyone else has to work relatively hard for it, which is why, out of all the lists to far, Venom's is the only one that mentions his ability to build guard meter.

[JackG]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mwIKWLShuU

check round 2 for guard gauge shenanigans.

[Lucy Boy]

if the guard gauge wasn't there those wouldn't have happened anyways. somebody post up a new translation please...i smell something.

[Jais]

I am still befuddled on how guard bar doesn't have an affect on high level play. Are you still serious? Jais vs Jam. Jais like 90% up. Jam cranks my guard bar. Jam lands a CH throw. Puff balls, instant dizzy, instant kill. What are you gonna say!?! I shouldn't have ate the throw and tried to escape when I had cranked guard bar? It sounds like all the players in the Netherlands just FD all pressure, and nobody can compensate.

[Rift]

Yeah Jam can raise the guardbar easily too, midscreen 5H pressure strings and whatnot. That shit hurts. I've been pressure->guardbar flashing->dizzy combo->IK'ed many times. That affects gameplay.

[reaVer]

I am still befuddled on how guard bar doesn't have an affect on high level play. Are you still serious?

Jais vs Jam. Jais like 90% up. Jam cranks my guard bar. Jam lands a CH throw. Puff balls, instant dizzy, instant kill.

What are you gonna say!?! I shouldn't have ate the throw and tried to escape when I had cranked guard bar?

It sounds like all the players in the Netherlands just FD all pressure, and nobody can compensate.

You seem to misunderstand something, most commonly dutch GG players can't guard at all and die horribly. And yeah you can compensate for FD, but you will leave a gap, if they don't escape it's their own fault.

There was instructed here on DL how to properly guard midscreen 5H pressure strings from Jam iirc. You should look into that.